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Jeff6851

Rebuild or retool?

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This offseason was one that every Red Wings fan was excited for and it was pretty quiet for us. While the Wild signed guys we were hoping for, we got guys like Samuelsson and Tootoo. We've lost three of our best defenseman over the past two years (Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom) and our stars are aging and wearing down. Could it be time to do what this franchise hasn't thought about for 20 years or is it simply that we need to just fill some holes?

Some think that even with support for our top guys that the Wings just won't be able to keep up with faster, younger and stronger teams. Some think that a few more pieces is all they need. What do you think? Trade some of our top talent (not necessarily Dats or Z, in fact, don't even consider it because it won't happen) for up and coming prospects or trade some of our top prospects for proven talent?

Personally, I wouldn't mind giving up some of our top guys for some very talented prospects, even if it means the playoff streak ends. I'd rather end the streak now and start a new one in a few years than extend this one another 2-3 until we are in a deep hole for years.

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we should never have to "rebuild" with this front office. our front office is amazing at development and scouting. i strictly believe we need to retool due to parity becoming so apparent. the game has changef look at tendies... you gotta be 6' minimum basically now and the standup is a lost art. butterfly and hybrids have taken over. gear has changed. moral of the story this franchise doesnt rebuild , they retool.

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... What do you think? Trade some of our top talent (not necessarily Dats or Z, in fact, don't even consider it because it won't happen) for up and coming prospects or trade some of our top prospects for proven talent?

...

No good reason to do either.

If we're talking rebuild, you have to consider moving Pav and/or Hank. Our 2nd tier is Franzen, Flip, Kronwall, maybe Jimmy...the return we'd get wouldn't make that big a difference. We'd just have more prospects and less room for potential UFAs. For Pav or Hank we could probably get a real potential stud (in addition to the top 5 pick we'd get for tanking the season).

We're in a bit of a tough spot, as we have several prospects with star potential, but who could end up being busts, or somewhere in between. By the time we really know which, our current top and 2nd-tier players will have lost much of their trade value. But that doesn't mean they'll be totally worthless and we should get out while we can. Nor that doing so necessarily means we'd be any better off in the future.

Better to just tough it out for now with what UFAs we can add and see what our current prospects will turn in to. Could be some players get made expendable, but we shouldn't go trading them until they are.

GoWings1905 likes this

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my take was that we needed to hit up the ole' " offer sheet on evander kane, kyle turris, etc...) and lose the draft picks.

that is a retool idea that carries water. we have lots of talent coming up from the griffins in the next 3-5 years. establishing the next core is important to do now!

the trade front is drying up, our used parts are great, but not worth much out in trade. UFA and offer sheets are the next best thing.

when was the last notable trade for the wings? Lang? seems like the other owners are done with us, so why worry about making them mad?

hell, we had to go through yzerman to get quincey...i dont think the other 29 teams are going to help us until we have 20 year olds to sell.

that will not happen unless we tank ala edmonton style.

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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The thing i dont like is everyone talking about "prospects". We need legit NHLers. Our prospects are all small and 90% of them are going to fizzle into nothingness. Nyquist has one freaking goal, and everyone thinks he's the next Datsyuk. He will more than likely be the next career 3rd line winger who score 18 points a year. Remember Tatar? How's he coming along? We need some decent draft picks so we can get some of these GOOD YOUNG players the edmontons, lightnings, and Pittsburghs have drafted over the last 10 years. We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone. I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.

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I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.

This is a problem since we don't HAVE Datsyuk for 5 years. We've got maybe 4 with him left, I'd rather retool a bit and be good for the rest of his career personally.

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The thing i dont like is everyone talking about "prospects". We need legit NHLers. Our prospects are all small and 90% of them are going to fizzle into nothingness. Nyquist has one freaking goal, and everyone thinks he's the next Datsyuk. He will more than likely be the next career 3rd line winger who score 18 points a year. Remember Tatar? How's he coming along? We need some decent draft picks so we can get some of these GOOD YOUNG players the edmontons, lightnings, and Pittsburghs have drafted over the last 10 years. We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone. I say suck for 5 years and get high draft picks. Then give D and Z one last harrah with the kids.

Verlander's MLB debut was in 2005 and he didn't impress in any of his 3 starts.

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Retool.

We need...

- An elite defenseman.

- More depth on the back-end. Team-crippling injuries are the norm for us, not the exception.

- A power-forward. Too much girly Euro-skill in the top-6. And don't say Franzen.

- To get bigger up front (top and bottom 6).

Trade Quincey ("He was terrible for us, but he's gonna be awesome for us!"), a roster forward, and a pick/prospect for a high-end defenseman. Sign Corey Perry or die. Add some big mean bodies. Stop kicking tires.

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Retool.

We need...

- An elite defenseman.

- More depth on the back-end. Team-crippling injuries are the norm for us, not the exception.

- A power-forward. Too much girly Euro-skill in the top-6. And don't say Franzen.

- To get bigger up front (top and bottom 6).

Trade Quincey ("He was terrible for us, but he's gonna be awesome for us!"), a roster forward, and a pick/prospect for a high-end defenseman. Sign Corey Perry or die. Add some big mean bodies. Stop kicking tires.

We need to trade Z or D and get a young center and a young D that can take top line duties over immediately. Thats our only hope for "retooling".

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The Wings don't have much as far as tradeable assets. Filppula is probably the most tradeable right now, because he's coming off a career-best season, but he has only one year left on his contract. Any team acquiring him would most likely want assurances that he could be signed to a new deal. Franzen's contract and lack of work ethic make him almost untradeable. Datsyuk could be moved, but at his age, you probably wouldn't get fair market value. He's still a contributor and a top 2-way forward, but is 34 and could head back to Russia when his current contract expires. Zetterberg could also be moved, but again, probably wouldn't fetch a fair return, and he has a lengthy contract. Kronwall's deal also ties him here for the long haul, and losing him (even for an equal or better replacement) would decimate Detroit's defense. The Wings will stick with Howard unless Petr Mrazek really emerges as a top-end NHL goalie in the very near future. Some of the lower-level guys could be moved if the Wings have a terrible season, which would make room for prospects.

I think this club is overdue for a big shakeup, something to eliminate the stale, comfortable feeling they sometimes seem to exude. But that will never happen under Ken Holland's watch, and I don't see Ilitch forcing him out the door anytime soon.

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It is so funny how it's always Hollands fault. He tried to bring in Suter and Parise, they've signed (congrats) with Minnesota. Thanks to the stupid impatient Flyers Weber will never be an UFA I am sure as hell, he would have been our plan B for next year. So which elite defenseman is left? Seabrook and Keith? Good luck getting one of these two from our arch-nemesis.

I don't know if Zetterberg would fetch much but for sure more than Datsyuk because of the age difference and the KHL fear but at some point this club will need a shakeup. We do have trade assets the question though is, are you prepared to lose Nyquist, Smith + for stopgaps?

For sure a difficult situation but Holland alongside Shero or Poile is one of the few GMs, that can and should fix this.

You need to have established prospects for a succesful retooling we don't have that, so I'd say go for a full rebuild. Yeah it sucks, but like a certain team if you suck enough this stupid league will reward you with 4 first overalls and handholding you into the SC parade ***

Edited by frankgrimes

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Holland is the GM, he's the one responsible for the roster. You don't get points for trying, this is a pass/fail business. So, yeah, while he did try to sign Suter and Parise and made a trade offer for Nash, he didn't acquire any of these players.

I can't see trading Smith or Nyquist for "stopgaps"; if they were to be moved, I would think it would be as a package for a significant player (like Nash, I wouldn't be surprised if one or both were part of that offer). I think, if the Wings should falter next year, they should look at moving their more valuable, established players and go for the true youth movement. That would be the time to let the prospects sink or swim, time to see if Holland and staff are bringing the right kind of players into the organization.

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Holland is the GM, he's the one responsible for the roster. You don't get points for trying, this is a pass/fail business. So, yeah, while he did try to sign Suter and Parise and made a trade offer for Nash, he didn't acquire any of these players.

I can't see trading Smith or Nyquist for "stopgaps"; if they were to be moved, I would think it would be as a package for a significant player (like Nash, I wouldn't be surprised if one or both were part of that offer). I think, if the Wings should falter next year, they should look at moving their more valuable, established players and go for the true youth movement. That would be the time to let the prospects sink or swim, time to see if Holland and staff are bringing the right kind of players into the organization.

True that but you know it takes two to make a deal. Shero, Holmer failed too the latter even failed to land Weber not only that he killed our chances of getting him now and in the future.

I like your plan plus there a still elite players outthere next year (Getzi and Perry) so if we land them both and trade our more established stars for #1 D men this would be a pretty good start for a rebuild, if you ask me.

Sent from my BlackBerry

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You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."

Edited by Dabura

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You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."

Basically, way too many Euros.

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You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."

While I agree who is that guy? For years the Wings haven't signed enforcers and there were chances to do so MacIntyre, Scott, McGrattan to name a few.

This team needs:

Someone to run the powerplay, cause havoc, fight and a stud number one D man.

But patience is key here the transistion from a puck possession to a more nasty style is a longterm process. Hopefully Kenny has a plan B ready and personally I believe he does he is the best GM in business so never bet against him *gg*

Sent from my BlackBerry

Edited by frankgrimes

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I'm not talking about enforcers. I'm talking about premier scoring-line power-forwards, e.g. Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry, Wayne Simmonds, Milan Lucic.

Our blue line is not where it needs to be. And that bothers me. But I'd give it a fighting chance in the postseason.

Our scoring lines, on the other hand - I know their chances in the playoffs.

Because I've seen the future. It's in the past. (Fwooosh, plot twist!)

Edited by Dabura
haroldsnepsts likes this

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It's the Shanahan factor.

We were soft, always getting pushed around. All the skill in the world (and all the regular-season success) meant nothing against the Devils and Avalanche in the playoffs.

So we ponied up for a power-forward. And we all know how that went.

The key was, it wasn't just Shanahan. It wasn't a one-man thing. I mean, yeah, he was a wrecking ball for us, and it was awesome. But, more than that, it's the way our game changed.

Before Shanny, we could only hurt in one way. Teams got wise, realized, "Hey, all we have to do is shut that s*** down. Then they just fold."

It's the same way today, really. All we have is our skill (especially up front, on the scoring lines). I've said this before and I'll say it again. Are we superb defensively? Can we play lights-out lockdown D? No, even with Lidstrom. Are we especially big? Are we really young? Are we fast? Is our PP especially lethal? Is our penalty-kill ruthless? Can Howard steal half a dozen playoff games for us?

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...We arent going to get Datsyuks or Zetterbergs in the 6th round anymore. Those days are gone...

I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...

Edited by RedWingsDad

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(Sorry, I'm really rambling here. I'm trying to get my mind off this unholy hammering headache. Gotta make it to 1:00 in one piece, sanity intact.)

Actualy, if it were up to me, I wouldn't pursue a premier scoring-line power-forward.

I think I'ma vomit pretty soon. g2g deal with that, and then I have to be somewhere until much later.

I think I'll start a spin-off-ish thread when I return.

(Sorry for the rambling. I have no real pride in any of this, so if it seems fit for moderatorfication, go for it.)

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I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...

See I tend to agree with you there, as I have seen time and time again, so many wings 'fans' rooting against their own team because things are little bit more messy now. If you look at the last 5 years draft picks, look at rounds 5-7 I guarantee you that you will recognize at least one 20+ goal scorer or top d-man that was a late draft pick, nothing has changed in that regard, we just haven't gotten lucky with it in some time.

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You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."

You may be right about the scoring lines, but to be fair we brought in Bert to solve that issue but he is just too slow. Franzen doesn't seem to care as long as his checks come in the mail, you can't shut Datsyuk out no matter what you try he will skate right by you.

But this year we didn't get kicked out of the playoffs because we got shut down defensively, we got knocked out because Rinne played the best 5 games of his career. we had multiple games of 40+ shots on Rinne, and he was robbing us left and right making blind glove saves on Z, flopping around to make impossible saves etc... Howard came back in my opinion before he was ready because he knew MacDonald and Conks can't stop a beachball, let alone a puck. Howie only made one real mistake in those games and maybe a handful of small errors all year, he is underrated because of Lundqvist and Quick stealing the spotlight, but the players know how good he is, and so does our staff and they have a lot of faith in him(as do I). Our defence will do a decent enough job keeping pucks out of our zone, and with brunner in the top 6, he is sneakier then datsyuk and 6 years younger, and sammy on our 2/3 line depending if NyQuist gets a spot alongside Datsyuk our offence will be fine. Babcock has stressed his concern for a lack of a better word, about our small stature, but he knows it takes time to turn a small team into a big team like Boston, but even still Boston has lots of talent and size, and they didn't do anything in the playoffs this year either. It just bugs me that there are so many bandwaggon fans out there that are bashing this team because we lost a defenceman, I wish half our fans had the faith Toronto fans have year in and year out when theycan't even make the playoffs, we will be just fine. No need for a rebuild, no need for a restructure, just need for a supportive fanbase. Sorry for the rant :)

I would also like to add that every keeps mentioning getzlav/perry but even with their talent Anaheim didn't even make the playoffs this year, in fact they finished in 13th in the West. So just to re-iterate size is only good if your team can play well together. That's why Detroit doesn't just pick up anyone, they need to be able to play on our team, and click with our guys, and of course Holland WILL NOT overpay for players.

Edited by Euro_Twins

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I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...

I can go to bat for Axe on this matter if he will allow, because at least with this topic I share a similar view.

In the late 80s and into the 90s there was a stigma against European hockey players in the NHL. For the most part, teams stuck to USA and Canada for all their prospect needs. After all, we're tough and hard-nosed and nobody wants to cheer for a commie anyway, so why invest resources and time into scouting an "inferior product"?

The Red Wings organization went against the grain in actively looking overseas for talent, and pursuing it to the degree that they did (there are some good stories about shady activities to sneak players over here from the collapsing Soviet Union). All of a sudden there are these five Russian guys skating circles around everyone while wearing the Winged Wheel, and this young prodigy from Sweden patrolling the blue line, and other teams start to take interest, and think "hey, maybe we should invest more in looking overseas for hockey talent too". After the SU fell, more players/teams were more easily able to scout/recruit players for the NHL.

But throughout the 90s and into the new century, the Wings' European scouting was number 1. We already had a decade+ of serious scouting experience while other teams were just getting their feet wet, or still focusing most of their efforts into North American scouting, and this was a fact that the Wings' brass took full advantage of. They had a pretty good idea what the potential was with players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, etc, but because no other team knew much about these players, Holland and co were able to draft them late and commit higher draft slots to more widely known prospects.

Fast forward another ten years and most teams have developed a solid scouting foundation overseas, and high skill players of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's caliber aren't going to stay hidden anymore. The Wings have done a good job even in the past decade with Ericsson and Franzen, but the likelihood of scoring a keeper late in the draft are getting smaller and smaller.

When you combine this trend with the parity that is injected into the league, it becomes all the more important to hold onto top picks, which aside from trading for Quincey to patch up a gaping hole on defense, Holland an co have been actively practicing.

Edited by Echolalia

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