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Rebuild or retool?


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#21 Dabura

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

(Sorry, I'm really rambling here. I'm trying to get my mind off this unholy hammering headache. Gotta make it to 1:00 in one piece, sanity intact.)

Actualy, if it were up to me, I wouldn't pursue a premier scoring-line power-forward.

I think I'ma vomit pretty soon. g2g deal with that, and then I have to be somewhere until much later.

I think I'll start a spin-off-ish thread when I return.

(Sorry for the rambling. I have no real pride in any of this, so if it seems fit for moderatorfication, go for it.)

Don't Toews me, bro!


#22 Euro_Twins

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...


See I tend to agree with you there, as I have seen time and time again, so many wings 'fans' rooting against their own team because things are little bit more messy now. If you look at the last 5 years draft picks, look at rounds 5-7 I guarantee you that you will recognize at least one 20+ goal scorer or top d-man that was a late draft pick, nothing has changed in that regard, we just haven't gotten lucky with it in some time.

#23 Euro_Twins

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

You know what it is? What irks me the most about this team?

It's the scoring lines.

And it's because, come the postseason (whenever it may be), they're not going to be *scoring* lines. They're going to be stifled, frustrated, underachieving lines.

Because they're going to be boxed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone. And they're going to have no answers. Again.

This'll be, like, the 90th time this very same issue has done us in. And, accordingly, everyone will say, "Well, s***. There's absolutely no gettiing around it this time: our top-6 needs teeth. Bigger, stronger, grittier, more physical. Someone to break through the box, drive the net, cause chaos, wreak havoc, shake things up."

And so we'll trade for Ray Whitney. And "Power-forwards are a rarity in this league; they're very, very hard to come by. And so, you know [ . . . ] to me, the question I have to ask myself is, Can I justify destroying this team forever [by trading a substantial number of assets] just so some jerkoffs on the interweb can sleep at night? [ . . . . ] We think Johan can be That Guy."


You may be right about the scoring lines, but to be fair we brought in Bert to solve that issue but he is just too slow. Franzen doesn't seem to care as long as his checks come in the mail, you can't shut Datsyuk out no matter what you try he will skate right by you.

But this year we didn't get kicked out of the playoffs because we got shut down defensively, we got knocked out because Rinne played the best 5 games of his career. we had multiple games of 40+ shots on Rinne, and he was robbing us left and right making blind glove saves on Z, flopping around to make impossible saves etc... Howard came back in my opinion before he was ready because he knew MacDonald and Conks can't stop a beachball, let alone a puck. Howie only made one real mistake in those games and maybe a handful of small errors all year, he is underrated because of Lundqvist and Quick stealing the spotlight, but the players know how good he is, and so does our staff and they have a lot of faith in him(as do I). Our defence will do a decent enough job keeping pucks out of our zone, and with brunner in the top 6, he is sneakier then datsyuk and 6 years younger, and sammy on our 2/3 line depending if NyQuist gets a spot alongside Datsyuk our offence will be fine. Babcock has stressed his concern for a lack of a better word, about our small stature, but he knows it takes time to turn a small team into a big team like Boston, but even still Boston has lots of talent and size, and they didn't do anything in the playoffs this year either. It just bugs me that there are so many bandwaggon fans out there that are bashing this team because we lost a defenceman, I wish half our fans had the faith Toronto fans have year in and year out when theycan't even make the playoffs, we will be just fine. No need for a rebuild, no need for a restructure, just need for a supportive fanbase. Sorry for the rant :)

I would also like to add that every keeps mentioning getzlav/perry but even with their talent Anaheim didn't even make the playoffs this year, in fact they finished in 13th in the West. So just to re-iterate size is only good if your team can play well together. That's why Detroit doesn't just pick up anyone, they need to be able to play on our team, and click with our guys, and of course Holland WILL NOT overpay for players.

Edited by Euro_Twins, 01 October 2012 - 12:25 PM.


#24 martinezsvsu

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

rebuilding is for s*** teams and video games

#25 Echolalia

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:49 PM

I am curious as to what you believe started 'those days' and what you think it was that changed to make them go away? Seems just a improbable now to draft a late round stud as it was when we did it last...

I can go to bat for Axe on this matter if he will allow, because at least with this topic I share a similar view.
In the late 80s and into the 90s there was a stigma against European hockey players in the NHL. For the most part, teams stuck to USA and Canada for all their prospect needs. After all, we're tough and hard-nosed and nobody wants to cheer for a commie anyway, so why invest resources and time into scouting an "inferior product"?
The Red Wings organization went against the grain in actively looking overseas for talent, and pursuing it to the degree that they did (there are some good stories about shady activities to sneak players over here from the collapsing Soviet Union). All of a sudden there are these five Russian guys skating circles around everyone while wearing the Winged Wheel, and this young prodigy from Sweden patrolling the blue line, and other teams start to take interest, and think "hey, maybe we should invest more in looking overseas for hockey talent too". After the SU fell, more players/teams were more easily able to scout/recruit players for the NHL.
But throughout the 90s and into the new century, the Wings' European scouting was number 1. We already had a decade+ of serious scouting experience while other teams were just getting their feet wet, or still focusing most of their efforts into North American scouting, and this was a fact that the Wings' brass took full advantage of. They had a pretty good idea what the potential was with players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, etc, but because no other team knew much about these players, Holland and co were able to draft them late and commit higher draft slots to more widely known prospects.
Fast forward another ten years and most teams have developed a solid scouting foundation overseas, and high skill players of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's caliber aren't going to stay hidden anymore. The Wings have done a good job even in the past decade with Ericsson and Franzen, but the likelihood of scoring a keeper late in the draft are getting smaller and smaller.
When you combine this trend with the parity that is injected into the league, it becomes all the more important to hold onto top picks, which aside from trading for Quincey to patch up a gaping hole on defense, Holland an co have been actively practicing.

Edited by Echolalia, 01 October 2012 - 01:04 PM.


#26 jroc86

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:36 PM

Retool. Keep the core, bring in a few kids this year, a few kids next year, and try and pick up a stud free agent and a few "Stop-gaps".

Brunner, Nyquist, Smith this year. If injuries become a concern or a slump happens Tatar and Anderson and Sheahan should also be given opportunties to get games.

Sing Danny Dekeyser this summer. If Edler becomes available jump on him ... if Getz/Perry/Iginla are up for UFA I could see Babs and Kenny having some pull with them after their 10' Olympic experience together. Of course a move like that would neccesitate unloading cap-space or losing a guy like Filpula which I wouldnt want to see.

If it evident we really need some size/toughness/stay-home presence on defense Regehr or D Murray should be available for pretty cheap next summer as well.

Hopefully Pukkinen, Jarnkrok, Sproul, and Oulette all mature quickly and 2-3 of them are on the team in 2 years.

#27 joshy207

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:31 PM

But this year we didn't get kicked out of the playoffs because we got shut down defensively, we got knocked out because Rinne played the best 5 games of his career. we had multiple games of 40+ shots on Rinne, and he was robbing us left and right making blind glove saves on Z, flopping around to make impossible saves etc...

and of course Holland WILL NOT overpay for players.


The Wings DID get shut down by Nashville. They couldn't generate many QUALITY scoring chances because Nashville's D didn't give them any room. The Wings may have fired 40 or so shots a game on Rinne, but most were from far out and/or from bad angles. Those are the easy ones to stop. Then, when the Wings did get quality chances, Rinne was up to the task. Howard did not receive the same kind of help from his defense.

Holland may have his own pay scale, but it is not on par with the rest of the league. You can't base this year's free agent salaries on contracts that were signed 3, 4, 5 years ago. If Datsyuk went UFA this summer, someone would have offered him $9M per year.





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