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Sacrifice the full season to guarantee Bettman's removal?


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Poll: Sacrifice the full season to guarantee Bettman's removal?

Sacrifice the full season to guarantee Bettman's removal?

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#141 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:24 AM

Name the last likeable commissioner in any sport. They all suck, and always have. It's the nature of the beast.

I don't need or want to like the Commissioner.

The I would prefer one who doesn't lock out the players and cost us hockey games every single CBA negotiation. The dislikes commissioners from other sports have done a better job of that.

#142 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:15 AM

The owners will put pressure on Uncle Gary before the players put pressure on Mr. Fehr.
Owners don't like empty arenas.

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#143 drwscc

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:59 AM

I don't need or want to like the Commissioner.

The I would prefer one who doesn't lock out the players and cost us hockey games every single CBA negotiation. The dislikes commissioners from other sports have done a better job of that.


Oh, you mean like all the other commissioners?

You mean the NBA lockout that wrapped up a year ago when the players caved? Or how about the NBA lockout of 98-99, where they lost 30+ games?

Or are you referring to the MLB strike of 1994-1995? The 232-day strike, which lasted from August 12, 1994, to April 2, 1995, led to the cancellation of between 931 and 948 games overall, and the entire 1994 postseason and World Series (also involved Fehr, interesting.)

NFL Refs lockout that ended a couple of weeks ago? 2011 NFL lockout?

Nah, you're right. These guys are saints. :S


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#144 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:14 AM

Oh, you mean like all the other commissioners?


Attached File  lockoutgraph.jpg   65.88KB   9 downloads
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No, not like all other commissioners.

And I'm not sure what a baseball strike has to do with a new NHL commissioner.

#145 GoWings1905

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:16 AM

How are those remotely comparable? Bettman has been commissioner for three lockouts, including the first entirely canceled season in professional sports. The NBA missed very little time relatively, MLB hasn't had a lockout in over 15 years and the NFL never lost a game last year. The NHL is staring at a second season being wiped out now.

No, none of the commissioners are saints. However, one's track record of taking away the game is in a different league. All of the other sports have had negotiation struggles at times, but no one does a lockout like Gary.

Edited by GoWings1905, 24 October 2012 - 09:16 AM.

 
 
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#146 drwscc

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

How did I know you'd go to the "Well, those other guys only murdered a few people, Bettman murdered way more!" argument

You people are ridiculous and blind. It doesn't matter if it's Gary Bettman or Wayne Gretzky. If the owners want a lockout, that's what's gonna happen. You want to rail against something, rail against the owners. It makes me laugh that you really think this was a cabal of 7 owners. ALL of the owners are rich men, and they didn't get rich by not taking advantage of situations when they had an opportunity. Mike Illitch is not sitting there going "C'mon guys. I really want to lose money, so let's just let the guys play." The owners are not in this to lose money; they are going to make as much as they possibly can. Sounds just like the players, but the players are good, and the owners are bad.

There are *no* good guys in this situation. The owners voted for a lockout, and the players hired their own Bettman to fight the real Bettman. Instead of someone who might be willing to negotiate, they decided to hire the most contentious and litigious labor negotiator around. What does that tell you? Hell, most of the players even understand that the Fehr brothers could care less about hockey.

But, keep on believing that the players are operating in good faith, and that the poor owners like Mike Illitch and Terry Pegula are being thwarted in their quest to lose money for your benefit by an evil Commissioner and an Illuminati of 7 owners. Oooh Booga Booga
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#147 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:30 AM

How did I know you'd go to the "Well, those other guys only murdered a few people, Bettman murdered way more!" argument

You people are ridiculous and blind. It doesn't matter if it's Gary Bettman or Wayne Gretzky. If the owners want a lockout, that's what's gonna happen. You want to rail against something, rail against the owners. It makes me laugh that you really think this was a cabal of 7 owners. ALL of the owners are rich men, and they didn't get rich by not taking advantage of situations when they had an opportunity. Mike Illitch is not sitting there going "C'mon guys. I really want to lose money, so let's just let the guys play." The owners are not in this to lose money; they are going to make as much as they possibly can. Sounds just like the players, but the players are good, and the owners are bad.

There are *no* good guys in this situation. The owners voted for a lockout, and the players hired their own Bettman to fight the real Bettman. Instead of someone who might be willing to negotiate, they decided to hire the most contentious and litigious labor negotiator around. What does that tell you? Hell, most of the players even understand that the Fehr brothers could care less about hockey.

But, keep on believing that the players are operating in good faith, and that the poor owners like Mike Illitch and Terry Pegula are being thwarted in their quest to lose money for your benefit by an evil Commissioner and an Illuminati of 7 owners. Oooh Booga Booga

Make your arguments without name calling please. Thank you.

And following the name calling up with a straw man fallacy doesn't help your case either. I'd take a commissioner who's lost under 800 to one who's closing in on 2,000 in less than twenty years every time.

I don't expect the commissioner to be perfect. I just don't want lockout to be his first move, which it clearly is with Bettman.

And actually it wouldn't surprise me if Illitch was saying exactly that. Did you see the video about the last lockout? Where they talk about Ilitch getting mad at other owners saying he's being punished because they don't know how to run a business? Then there's the articles that talk about how Bettman runs things as commissioner. Not sure if you saw those either, but these aren't ideas we're just inventing.

#148 up2here

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:53 AM

Comparing the NHL to those other sports really isnt fair. The NFL is such a well developed league that a monkey could probably be commissioner. MLB has its issues but baseball is an American icon. The NHL is 4th in the US so the commisioner has challenges that those other leagues just dont have.

#149 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

How did I know you'd go to the "Well, those other guys only murdered a few people, Bettman murdered way more!" argument

You people are ridiculous and blind. It doesn't matter if it's Gary Bettman or Wayne Gretzky. If the owners want a lockout, that's what's gonna happen. You want to rail against something, rail against the owners. It makes me laugh that you really think this was a cabal of 7 owners. ALL of the owners are rich men, and they didn't get rich by not taking advantage of situations when they had an opportunity. Mike Illitch is not sitting there going "C'mon guys. I really want to lose money, so let's just let the guys play." The owners are not in this to lose money; they are going to make as much as they possibly can. Sounds just like the players, but the players are good, and the owners are bad.

There are *no* good guys in this situation. The owners voted for a lockout, and the players hired their own Bettman to fight the real Bettman. Instead of someone who might be willing to negotiate, they decided to hire the most contentious and litigious labor negotiator around. What does that tell you? Hell, most of the players even understand that the Fehr brothers could care less about hockey.

But, keep on believing that the players are operating in good faith, and that the poor owners like Mike Illitch and Terry Pegula are being thwarted in their quest to lose money for your benefit by an evil Commissioner and an Illuminati of 7 owners. Oooh Booga Booga


You fail to take into account that Illitch does not lose money on the wings, the last 5 years or so his "losing" franchise was in the top 5 revenue teams every year.

#150 esteef

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

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Edited by esteef, 24 October 2012 - 11:59 AM.

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#151 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

You fail to take into account that Illitch does not lose money on the wings, the last 5 years or so his "losing" franchise was in the top 5 revenue teams every year.


Also it could be more than that if the best owner in all of sports wouldn't have th share the revenue wth failed franchises or pay for a effing undersized anti hockeyguy.

The players hired Fehr to get a fair deal no offer from the NHL has been close to that.

I'd say however long it takes if some OWNER created problems and this atrocious commissioner are removed its well worth it.

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#152 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

Also it could be more than that if the best owner in all of sports wouldn't have th share the revenue wth failed franchises or pay for a effing undersized anti hockeyguy.

The players hired Fehr to get a fair deal no offer from the NHL has been close to that.

I'd say however long it takes if some OWNER created problems and this atrocious commissioner are removed its well worth it.

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Fair meaning well over what their employers are making and well over what they are really worth? Yeah sounds real fair. And Owners have Bettman in there to make sure that the players don't get too greedy and it seems to be working.
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#153 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:27 AM

Fair meaning well over what their employers are making and well over what they are really worth? Yeah sounds real fair. And Owners have Bettman in there to make sure that the players don't get too greedy and it seems to be working.


Look at the contracts and then you'll see how much both sides thought they were worth. Players are the product simple as that and don't even start talking about greedy when a bunch of billionaires want to cry poor and a damn midget making more than 90 % of the players is asking for a reduced salary while his own won't be touched.

But whatever having so much fun watching the Swiss league and a bunch of locked out players over there.

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#154 up2here

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:21 AM

The NHL definitely can support 30 franchises, they just need to be in hockey locations.

Make the following relocations:

Phoenix --> Quebec (instant rivalry with Habs)
Islanders --> Brooklyn (rumoured)
Devils --> Seattle (instant rivalry with Canucks)
Florida --> Saskatoon (the city itself and surrounding areas could support a team...the Jets are sold out for 5 years with a comparable population I believe)

Not sure what other teams are horribly cash strapped, but Hamilton, Ontario and Markham, Ontario could support teams and they would both be top 10 profit margin in the league.


Its easy to talk about moving more teams to Canada now that the CAD dollar is worth more than the American one but 12 years ago it was the American teams carrying the Canadian ones. We cant relocate franchises with the economy. Until the NHL gets a nice TV deal we have to ride the the highs and lows and get by.

Without teams in the South there will be no big TV deal. Why would a major network pay big bucks to have 65% of the US population not even care?

Edited by UP2HERE, 25 October 2012 - 07:28 AM.


#155 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:29 AM

Fair meaning well over what their employers are making and well over what they are really worth? Yeah sounds real fair. And Owners have Bettman in there to make sure that the players don't get too greedy and it seems to be working.

Do you have a link to this claim you keep making that the players are making well over what their employers do?

Getting 57% of HRR is not the same as them making more money than the owners. It means they get 57% of the portion of the revenue that they've defined as hockey related.

And they actually are making less than they are really worth because the existing hard cap prevents the top players from getting paid their full market value. Plus there's the whole escrow thing too.

#156 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:07 AM

Do you have a link to this claim you keep making that the players are making well over what their employers do?

Getting 57% of HRR is not the same as them making more money than the owners. It means they get 57% of the portion of the revenue that they've defined as hockey related.

And they actually are making less than they are really worth because the existing hard cap prevents the top players from getting paid their full market value. Plus there's the whole escrow thing too.

I use the same links that you guys use that say that it's all Bettmans fault and the NHLPA are just the victims in all of this.
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#157 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:16 AM

Its easy to talk about moving more teams to Canada now that the CAD dollar is worth more than the American one but 12 years ago it was the American teams carrying the Canadian ones. We cant relocate franchises with the economy. Until the NHL gets a nice TV deal we have to ride the the highs and lows and get by.

Without teams in the South there will be no big TV deal. Why would a major network pay big bucks to have 65% of the US population not even care?


Not the TV deal again. You know the Canadian $ had to do with economics but this thing here is about fanbase and hockey markets. Something that can not be fixed.

The NHL tried and failed simple as that count the losses and try real hockeymarkets.

You can't cry poor while sitting on billions and investing millions to support failed franchises. You thing the NBC guys do care abou that? They want good ratings and hockeymarkets such as Hamilton, QC porovide exactly that.

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#158 up2here

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

Not the TV deal again. You know the Canadian $ had to do with economics but this thing here is about fanbase and hockey markets. Something that can not be fixed.

The NHL tried and failed simple as that count the losses and try real hockeymarkets.

You can't cry poor while sitting on billions and investing millions to support failed franchises. You thing the NBC guys do care abou that? They want good ratings and hockeymarkets such as Hamilton, QC porovide exactly that.

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Each NFL team gets roughly 160 million each from their TV deal. The MLB and NBA are a little more complicated because each team gets some national money and some local money but the average is somewhere around 40- 50 million each. Each NHL team gets about 6 million.

Like it or not theres no big TV money without the southern population of the United States. Why would NBC show hockey games in Phoenix (6th Largest Market in the US), Los Angeles (2nd Largest Market in the US), Houston (4th Largest Market in the US), Dallas (9th Largest Market in the US) etc. if there are no teams there for anyone to care about? It doesnt make any business sense. The big TV money allows the game to grow and withstand some of the highs and lows. If the Canadian dollar was still .65 on the US dollar like it was 12 years ago do you think we would have a team in Winnipeg right now? The answer is no. How do we know the Canadian dollar wont revert back to that?

Were already seeing the affects of having Southern US teams, there are players from Texas and California in the league and coming up in the league. Thats good for hockey and there will be some pain along the way but we cant just abandon the idea.

Edit: I assume you would consider Minnesota a traditional hockey market. They lost money in 2010-2011 which shows its not all about the market.

Edited by UP2HERE, 25 October 2012 - 12:09 PM.


#159 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:43 AM

I use the same links that you guys use that say that it's all Bettmans fault and the NHLPA are just the victims in all of this.

Care to quote one of my posts where I've said that?

So the whole premise to your argument is something that you made up.

#160 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:33 PM

Each NFL team gets roughly 160 million each from their TV deal. The MLB and NBA are a little more complicated because each team gets some national money and some local money but the average is somewhere around 40- 50 million each. Each NHL team gets about 6 million.

Like it or not theres no big TV money without the southern population of the United States. Why would NBC show hockey games in Phoenix (6th Largest Market in the US), Los Angeles (2nd Largest Market in the US), Houston (4th Largest Market in the US), Dallas (9th Largest Market in the US) etc. if there are no teams there for anyone to care about? It doesnt make any business sense. The big TV money allows the game to grow and withstand some of the highs and lows. If the Canadian dollar was still .65 on the US dollar like it was 12 years ago do you think we would have a team in Winnipeg right now? The answer is no. How do we know the Canadian dollar wont revert back to that?

Were already seeing the affects of having Southern US teams, there are players from Texas and California in the league and coming up in the league. Thats good for hockey and there will be some pain along the way but we cant just abandon the idea.

Edit: I assume you would consider Minnesota a traditional hockey market. They lost money in 2010-2011 which shows its not all about the market.


Personally I'd rather have a league with fewer teams, no salary cap and no work stoppage every 5 years.

Well they've lost money because of the on ice product and owning a hockey club is a longtime investment. You don't see a guy like Pegula whining...

The NHL could just wipe out the floor or make it 26 % so the so called poor teams can wont be forced to overspend but the problem is Bettman and his stupid parity illusion.

You think an original 6 matchup would have had such terrible ratings? I highly doubt that.

Ok the southern teams are a neccessary evil then don't cry about losing money, because there are better options.

The NHL and Bettman created these problems so it is on to them to fix it with their own money. How about the midget paying 50 % of his salary to help out his mickeymouse clubs? The bastard would move them asap before accepting well not surprising if you think about his background.



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