51 replies to this topic

[Z Winged Dangler]

To the OP, I'm going to parrot what others have already said. Yzerman was the better Red Wing, Lidstrom the better player. That said...



I actually came here to refute this point by saying that Stevie's body broke down in later years, and he no longer would've been able to compete with a purely offensive game. I still think this is true, and I don't believe he would've lasted 12 more seasons that way.

However...

I took a quick peek at the all time scoring leaders, and it is not unfeasible (hi, double negative!) that he could've taken the number two all time spot if things had gone differently. Had he even played one more season in the real world, he definitely would've ousted Dionne, and possibly even taken the #4 spot from Francis had he remained healthy (given his numbers from his last two seasons -- 75gp, 55p and 61gp, 34p).


With him only 132 pts behind Messier even with his switch up to two way play, I could honestly have seen him topping every other forward all time save for the Great One.

2 Mark Messier EDM, NYR, VAN, NYR 1756 1887 1.07 3 Gordie Howe DET, HFD 1767 1850 1.05 4 Ron Francis HFD, PIT, CAR, TOR 1731 1798 1.04 5 Marcel Dionne DET, LAK, NYR 1348 1771 1.31 6 Steve Yzerman DET 1514 1755 1.16

...of course then we'd have exactly zero cups, and people would be talking about how he was the best centerman never to win the big one...

Yzerman's last 2 years kept him from being 2nd overall along with the fact that Howe and Messier as well as Francis played 150-200 more career games than Yzerman.

Another thing, Demers was the one that turned Yzerman into a 2-way centre. Bowman took over and had the 1991 draft done and a team that got stacked with Lids, Federov, Konstantinov and then had the Grind Line and Shanny added along with Larionov and Fetisov. That team was a raging hard-on that just needed the right system. The same thing he did when he had the Penguins back to back championships with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Coffey, Barasso, Stevens and so on. They just needed organization to win the cup.

And I'd put Yzerman ahead of Lemieux on the all time list at centre in a heartbeat, as well as Gretzky. Centres need to be responsible on both sides and Yzerman was far superior to Lemieux and Gretzky in every way but point totals. I'd sooner put those 2 on Yzerman's wing and make a super line and have Sakic as my 2nd line centre who was the closest comparison as stated by someone else above for Stevie Y.

[GMRwings1983]

Yzerman's last 2 years kept him from being 2nd overall along with the fact that Howe and Messier as well as Francis played 150-200 more career games than Yzerman.

Another thing, Demers was the one that turned Yzerman into a 2-way centre. Bowman took over and had the 1991 draft done and a team that got stacked with Lids, Federov, Konstantinov and then had the Grind Line and Shanny added along with Larionov and Fetisov. That team was a raging hard-on that just needed the right system. The same thing he did when he had the Penguins back to back championships with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, Coffey, Barasso, Stevens and so on. They just needed organization to win the cup.

And I'd put Yzerman ahead of Lemieux on the all time list at centre in a heartbeat, as well as Gretzky. Centres need to be responsible on both sides and Yzerman was far superior to Lemieux and Gretzky in every way but point totals. I'd sooner put those 2 on Yzerman's wing and make a super line and have Sakic as my 2nd line centre who was the closest comparison as stated by someone else above for Stevie Y.

Gretzky and Lemieux are way above Yzerman on the all time greatest centers list.

Yzerman was better as a two-way center, but so were Fedorov and Datsyuk. Would you rank them above Gretzky also?

[Uncle Danny]

Gretzky and Lemieux are way above Yzerman on the all time greatest centers list.

Yzerman was better as a two-way center, but so were Fedorov and Datsyuk. Would you rank them above Gretzky also?

There quite simply is no way I could fathom voting for anyone in the history of hockey above Gretzky at the center position. You know why Gretzky isn't known as a great two way player? Because any coach on the planet would have been a moron to ask him to curtail his scoring. He didn't have to play great defense because he'd simply outscore the other team. There is a reason he's known as The Great One.

Just playing out a hypothetical: had he decided that he wanted to play a defense first game, his hockey IQ and vision were such that I have no doubt he'd have been among the very best at it. As they say, though, you can teach defense, you can't teach scoring... which is what he did better than anyone before or since.

EDIT: Clarity

Edited by Uncle Danny, 18 October 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[GMRwings1983]

There quite simply is no way I could fathom voting for anyone in the history of hockey above Gretzky at the center position. You know why Gretzky isn't known as a great two way player? Because any coach on the planet would have been a moron to ask him to curtail his scoring. He didn't have to play great defense because he'd simply outscore the other team. There is a reason he's known as The Great One.

Just playing out a hypothetical: had he decided that he wanted to play a defense first game, his hockey IQ and vision were such that I have no doubt he'd have been among the very best at it. As they say, though, you can teach defense, you can't teach scoring... which is what he did better than anyone before or since.

EDIT: Clarity

Not to mention, his plus/minus numbers were pretty good during the Edmonton heyday. In fact, I think his career plus/minus is around +500! Not because he was great defensively, but because his line was always scoring and dominated the puck. He didn't have to play much defense really.

[Z Winged Dangler]

There quite simply is no way I could fathom voting for anyone in the history of hockey above Gretzky at the center position. You know why Gretzky isn't known as a great two way player? Because any coach on the planet would have been a moron to ask him to curtail his scoring. He didn't have to play great defense because he'd simply outscore the other team. There is a reason he's known as The Great One.

Just playing out a hypothetical: had he decided that he wanted to play a defense first game, his hockey IQ and vision were such that I have no doubt he'd have been among the very best at it. As they say, though, you can teach defense, you can't teach scoring... which is what he did better than anyone before or since.

EDIT: Clarity

Makes sense. I just like the thought of a super line of Lemieux - Yzerman - Gretzky. As a centrement myself, I always pride myself on a solid 2-way game, so my first logic isn't just to outscore the other team as Gretzky did with relative ease, but to take the puck from the other team and shove it back in their face, and that's what Yzerman did better than anyone, as does Datsyuk. But you raise a good point and I agree with you.

[Wing Across The Pond]

I think it's a harder decision than a lot of people think. Stevie was all about team and it's well documented how he trained hard and changed his game for the better of the team away from his personal stats.

I think Lids is exactly the same yet far from the public eye. He did make mistakes, all players do, but once he did he made damn sure no one would ever see it again. Man probably thought about every little play so much and worked on it in practice that he couldn't mess it up again.

Tough choice but I saw more of Lids than Stevie. That being said I never noticed Lids as much because I was entirely confident and comfortable with him being out there each night. Was more concerned by players like Lebda lol

[Johnz96]

Lids. Hands down. Seven Norris Trophies that should have been 10. Yzerman never won any best forward trophies other than a Selke.

Yzerman won a Lester B. Pearson Award (now known as the Ted Lindsay Award) for the leagues outstanding player voted by the players in 88-89

[evilmrt]

Brett Lebda

[The Axe]

Here's how you KNOW it's Lidstrom. Not ONCE, in his 20 years of Red Wings awesomeness, was Lidstrom mentioned in a possible trade. Cant say that about Stevie Y.

[TheDetroitRedWings]

The official Detroit Red Wings on facebook had a tourney to determine the greatest Red Wing of all time. Of course the final was Yzerman Vs Lidstrom. Stevie Y won by a landslide, getting more than double the votes Lidstrom received.

[Wing Across The Pond]

The official Detroit Red Wings on facebook had a tourney to determine the greatest Red Wing of all time. Of course the final was Yzerman Vs Lidstrom. Stevie Y won by a landslide, getting more than double the votes Lidstrom received.

Well someone on Facebook commented that Fielder should be allowed to bat first in order to get some runs for the Tigers, even though he couldn't hit a barn door this Post Season. Facebook numbers can't really be trusted. I guess a lot of the people "voting" on that one would have been more casual fans, not all I'll admit, so they'll go with the "more obvious" choice. But again, much like this it's an opinion and most are different. I don't really see Stevie as the face of this organisation anymore because he's moved on. Perhaps Lids will become it now, but being back in Sweden probably not. Gordie really is the face of the Wings as far as greats go. But that's another tale for another day

[The Axe]

Well someone on Facebook commented that Fielder should be allowed to bat first in order to get some runs for the Tigers, even though he couldn't hit a barn door this Post Season. Facebook numbers can't really be trusted. I guess a lot of the people "voting" on that one would have been more casual fans, not all I'll admit, so they'll go with the "more obvious" choice. But again, much like this it's an opinion and most are different. I don't really see Stevie as the face of this organisation anymore because he's moved on. Perhaps Lids will become it now, but being back in Sweden probably not. Gordie really is the face of the Wings as far as greats go. But that's another tale for another day

Exactly. Katie Perry vs. The Beatles on facebook, and Katie Perry wins in a landslide. Means nothing.