Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Perpetual line shuffling


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 RedWingsDad

RedWingsDad

    Bigot

  • Restricted
  • PipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:47 PM

Here is a topic that must have been discussed at some point, but I am eager to hear peoples current thoughts on the matter.

Simply put - I think Babcock shuffles our lines way too much and thereby does not allow chemistry to properly build. I understand his line shuffling philosophy in theory, and can see where you may use it occasionally as a kick in the pants to slumping players, but I do not understand doing it almost every... single... game.

Thoughts?
Tim Thomas - Patriot and generally awesome human being.
 
Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

#2 Echolalia

Echolalia

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,226 posts
  • Location:fab ferndale

Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:04 PM

Bowman loved to shuffle lines like nobody's business. The degree to which he shuffled lines I think forced players to play on their toes and be especially aware of their surroundings, as well as force them to be receptive to their teammates, which results in a strong, unified team come playoffs. I suspect Babcock is following Bowman's philosophy, but to a lesser degree than Scotty applied it, and consequently we are seeing diminished effects.
But who knows, I'm not a coach. Bowman did a lot of things other coaches wouldn't dare try, even today.

Edited by Echolalia, 17 October 2012 - 03:05 PM.


#3 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,219 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

K guys....everyone put your name in the hat. Starting lineup today is as follows:

Gustavsson - Kindl - Dats
Franzen - Kronwall

2 for 5...not bad.

On a serious note, the only thing that grinds my gears about the line shuffling is that Dats and Z still only get to play together like 4 games a year when not on the PP together. Hopefully the additions of Brunner and Nyquist make it so Dats and Z can play on the top line with Mule or Nyquist and Flip can centre the 2nd Pair with Gus or Brunner on the line. More threats offensively now and younger legs....lets get the Eurotwins back together!

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#4 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,913 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:18 PM

blueadams where are you?

Geesh, its been a long time since I contributed some lines....

I get tired on the NON shuffling when its needed....example, Cleary is a THIRD line player and needs to stay there! Franzen needs to put up 80-90 points on the top line or get demoted... I am still hoping once the CBA is settled there are going to be some teams that need to dump some salary and hope that Franzen is outta here! Still have the issue with too many forwards too! So unless a trade is made, there will be a ton of line shuffling!

K guys....everyone put your name in the hat. Starting lineup today is as follows:

Gustavsson - Kindl - Dats
Franzen - Kronwall

2 for 5...not bad.

On a serious note, the only thing that grinds my gears about the line shuffling is that Dats and Z still only get to play together like 4 games a year when not on the PP together. Hopefully the additions of Brunner and Nyquist make it so Dats and Z can play on the top line with Mule or Nyquist and Flip can centre the 2nd Pair with Gus or Brunner on the line. More threats offensively now and younger legs....lets get the Eurotwins back together!


He no longer plays goalie? :ninja:

Bring Fedorov Home For A Day!

 

He Needs To Retire A Red Wing.

 

When Gordie Leaves Us, the NHL MUST Retire The #9.


#5 irishock

irishock

    Into the sunset

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,837 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

He no longer plays goalie? :ninja:


Why play goalie when Cleary is our goalie?

bringit.jpg


#6 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,219 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:38 AM

Why play goalie when Cleary is our goalie?

That's what the hat gave you for a goalie? I got Zetterberg playing goal. He will wear goggles in lieu of a helmet as pucks cannot penetrate his beard. Don't worry though guys, Z's offensive production will be covered by one of the ice girls.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#7 luvmnger

luvmnger

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 514 posts
  • Location:albuquerque NM

Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:25 AM

wait one second!

ICE GIRLS!.....WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?
Dino Ciccarelli will always be #1

#8 FireCaptain

FireCaptain

    This space for rent.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,936 posts
  • Location:Atoka, TN

Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:24 AM

During TOTALLY AWESOME TIME!

ICE GIRLS!.....WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?


Most nights, my posts are brought to you by some sort of IPA and a heaping dose of sarcasm.
Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.
We not score, is hard to win. - Pavel Datsyuk #13


#9 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:24 PM

Here is a topic that must have been discussed at some point, but I am eager to hear peoples current thoughts on the matter.

Simply put - I think Babcock shuffles our lines way too much and thereby does not allow chemistry to properly build. I understand his line shuffling philosophy in theory, and can see where you may use it occasionally as a kick in the pants to slumping players, but I do not understand doing it almost every... single... game.

Thoughts?


I agree. I love Babcock, but I think he shuffles a bit much too. The first thing every hockey player says when they come back from injury is, "it's going to take a while to get my timing back". So obviously timing is really important. As such, going from Bertuzzi on a wing to Filppula probably f***s with that a little bit.

All in all I think Babs is a great coach, but I think most of the time it's better to let players work through slumps rather than mix it up all the time.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#10 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,987 posts

Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:38 PM

Not really sure what you all are seeing. Seems to me the majority of shuffling done in the last few seasons has been due to injuries.

#11 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 546 posts

Posted 20 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

im for shuffling if it makes dats not have to get stuck with mule and bert

#12 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,074 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

Fil - Dats - Mule ----------------Fil and Dats have shown chemistry together, Franzen provides the bigger body that works in the dirty areas
Bert - Z - Brunner---------------Z and Brunner will have chemistry after playing for Zug together, Bert provides the big body
Goose - Helm - Sammy--------Goose brings skill, Helm brings speed and defense, Sammy brings 3rd line scoring
Toots - Abby - Cleary----------Grind line baby

#13 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:42 PM

Bowman loved to shuffle lines like nobody's business. The degree to which he shuffled lines I think forced players to play on their toes and be especially aware of their surroundings, as well as force them to be receptive to their teammates, which results in a strong, unified team come playoffs. I suspect Babcock is following Bowman's philosophy, but to a lesser degree than Scotty applied it, and consequently we are seeing diminished effects.
But who knows, I'm not a coach. Bowman did a lot of things other coaches wouldn't dare try, even today.


Bowman also had a team full of Hall of Famers. Kinda loses its effect when you're putting one dimensional guys in roles they aren't suited for, or aren't suited for any longer.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#14 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,074 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:06 PM

Bowman also had a team full of Hall of Famers. Kinda loses its effect when you're putting one dimensional guys in roles they aren't suited for, or aren't suited for any longer.


Bowman could have played Lids at center, Feds at goalie, and Stevie at healthy scratch, and he still would have had a better chance at winning the game than most teams.

I think you can shuffle all you want but there are certain do's and don'ts (referring to top 6 lines as they provide the most scoring and require the most chemistry)

Abby, Helm, Toots, Emmerton, Miller, and Eaves, should never be in the top 6
Abby and Helm should not play together because we need them at 3rd and 4th line center (assuming Emmerton won't play)

Dats, Zberg, Mule, and Fil, should always be in the top 6
Dats and Zberg should not play together because we need them at center for the 1st and 2nd lines

If Tuzzi is in the top 6 he should never play on the same line as Franzen. We are not a huge team and we cannot afford to have our bigger power forwards clumped on one line. We need them paired with skilled players so they can get to the dirty areas where the skilled players won't always be.

So basically if I was Babs my line chart would look like this:

______ - Dats - _______
______ - Zberg - ______
______ - Helm - _______
______ - Abby - _______

Available top 6ers to insert and play around with: Franzen (as long as he's not paired with Bert), Bert (as long as he's not paired with Franzen), Val, Sammy, Cleary, Goose, Brunner

Then depending on who gets pushed down to the third line Babs can make an energy or scoring line out of the third line. Say Bert, Franzen, Val, and Cleary are the top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Sammy, Goose, or Brunner on the third line and have a third scoring line. Say Franzen, Val, Goose, and Brunner are your top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Cleary, Sammy, or Bert on the third line and have more of a bigger/defensive third line.

I know a lot of people here like to see Z and D play together but I'm of the opinion that Datsyuk and Zetterberg should not play on the same line together unless it's a power play. I know it's awesome when they play together, but we need them centering separate lines. You don't win hockey games with superstar 1st lines. We need the skill, defense, and leadership they bring on both of our top 6 lines. I read an article a little while back that said while the D/Z line is awesome and effective, the team does better when they're separated (I'll try to dig it up if some really has to make me). As in we tend to win more games and our other 16 skaters do better when they are separated. So Z and D should always be seperate.

Sorry, lockouts got me bored.

#15 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,219 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:12 AM

Fil - Dats - Mule ----------------Fil and Dats have shown chemistry together, Franzen provides the bigger body that works in the dirty areas
Bert - Z - Brunner---------------Z and Brunner will have chemistry after playing for Zug together, Bert provides the big body
Goose - Helm - Sammy--------Goose brings skill, Helm brings speed and defense, Sammy brings 3rd line scoring
Toots - Abby - Cleary----------Grind line baby


Love these lines. The only thing i'd maybe switch is Bert and Goose.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#16 Wing Across The Pond

Wing Across The Pond

    Gabriel's Wings

  • Silver Booster
  • 744 posts
  • Location:LONDON, UK

Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:53 PM

I'd prefer him to shuffle the lines more than not. I'd want all the players able to play with anyone on that roster rather than only have certain combinations we can roll out. I don't care if Babs throws someone like Abby up on the first for the final period or for a non-essential game if it meant getting a goal or two that we needed. Wont happen but I wouldn't really mind.

Posted Image



Check out my blog -The Heid-Out- a cynical mans take on everyday life


#17 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,134 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

Bowman could have played Lids at center, Feds at goalie, and Stevie at healthy scratch, and he still would have had a better chance at winning the game than most teams.

I think you can shuffle all you want but there are certain do's and don'ts (referring to top 6 lines as they provide the most scoring and require the most chemistry)

Abby, Helm, Toots, Emmerton, Miller, and Eaves, should never be in the top 6
Abby and Helm should not play together because we need them at 3rd and 4th line center (assuming Emmerton won't play)

Dats, Zberg, Mule, and Fil, should always be in the top 6
Dats and Zberg should not play together because we need them at center for the 1st and 2nd lines

If Tuzzi is in the top 6 he should never play on the same line as Franzen. We are not a huge team and we cannot afford to have our bigger power forwards clumped on one line. We need them paired with skilled players so they can get to the dirty areas where the skilled players won't always be.

So basically if I was Babs my line chart would look like this:

______ - Dats - _______
______ - Zberg - ______
______ - Helm - _______
______ - Abby - _______

Available top 6ers to insert and play around with: Franzen (as long as he's not paired with Bert), Bert (as long as he's not paired with Franzen), Val, Sammy, Cleary, Goose, Brunner

Then depending on who gets pushed down to the third line Babs can make an energy or scoring line out of the third line. Say Bert, Franzen, Val, and Cleary are the top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Sammy, Goose, or Brunner on the third line and have a third scoring line. Say Franzen, Val, Goose, and Brunner are your top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Cleary, Sammy, or Bert on the third line and have more of a bigger/defensive third line.

I know a lot of people here like to see Z and D play together but I'm of the opinion that Datsyuk and Zetterberg should not play on the same line together unless it's a power play. I know it's awesome when they play together, but we need them centering separate lines. You don't win hockey games with superstar 1st lines. We need the skill, defense, and leadership they bring on both of our top 6 lines. I read an article a little while back that said while the D/Z line is awesome and effective, the team does better when they're separated (I'll try to dig it up if some really has to make me). As in we tend to win more games and our other 16 skaters do better when they are separated. So Z and D should always be seperate.

Sorry, lockouts got me bored.


First of all, you have some good information here, but I don't like half of it lol. Let me explain why;

Bertuzzi is way too slow now to be a top-6 and does not put up the numbers anymore either.

Cleary should never be in the top-6

Nyquist played phenominal on a line with Datsyuk last year (they have great chemistry so put the young kid there to learn from the best)

Zetterberg has 5 goals and 2 assists in two games in the swiss league, and brunner has assisted on 4 of those goals. They have great chemistry and are tearing it up out there.

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)

#18 RedWingsDad

RedWingsDad

    Bigot

  • Restricted
  • PipPip
  • 437 posts

Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:12 PM

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)


I like your lines overall... not sure I would have Bert on the 4th line or Quincey/Colaiacovo on the 3rd defensive pairing... Ericsson should be on the 3rd paring. Also, here's hoping that Quincey steps up and Colaiacovo surprises us with solid performance.
Tim Thomas - Patriot and generally awesome human being.
 
Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

#19 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

First of all, you have some good information here, but I don't like half of it lol. Let me explain why;

Bertuzzi is way too slow now to be a top-6 and does not put up the numbers anymore either.

Cleary should never be in the top-6

Nyquist played phenominal on a line with Datsyuk last year (they have great chemistry so put the young kid there to learn from the best)

Zetterberg has 5 goals and 2 assists in two games in the swiss league, and brunner has assisted on 4 of those goals. They have great chemistry and are tearing it up out there.

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)


No room for Cleary on your team eh? And how are we supposed to take you seriously again?

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#20 Euro_Twins

Euro_Twins

    Healthy Scratch

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,134 posts
  • Location:Windsor, Ontario

Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:19 AM

No room for Cleary on your team eh? And how are we supposed to take you seriously again?


If Cleary can come out and prove he has recovered from his knee injury and play well, I would put him on the third line, problem is we have a lot of talent and no where to put it all. If Cleary plays the way he did last year he is not very useful to us, that is why I did not include him. Cleary a few years back was good, but not for a little while, but hey here is to hoping I am wrong. :guns:





Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users