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Guest RedWingsDad

Perpetual line shuffling

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Here is a topic that must have been discussed at some point, but I am eager to hear peoples current thoughts on the matter.

Simply put - I think Babcock shuffles our lines way too much and thereby does not allow chemistry to properly build. I understand his line shuffling philosophy in theory, and can see where you may use it occasionally as a kick in the pants to slumping players, but I do not understand doing it almost every... single... game.

Thoughts?

kipwinger likes this

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Bowman loved to shuffle lines like nobody's business. The degree to which he shuffled lines I think forced players to play on their toes and be especially aware of their surroundings, as well as force them to be receptive to their teammates, which results in a strong, unified team come playoffs. I suspect Babcock is following Bowman's philosophy, but to a lesser degree than Scotty applied it, and consequently we are seeing diminished effects.

But who knows, I'm not a coach. Bowman did a lot of things other coaches wouldn't dare try, even today.

Edited by Echolalia

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K guys....everyone put your name in the hat. Starting lineup today is as follows:

Gustavsson - Kindl - Dats

Franzen - Kronwall

2 for 5...not bad.

On a serious note, the only thing that grinds my gears about the line shuffling is that Dats and Z still only get to play together like 4 games a year when not on the PP together. Hopefully the additions of Brunner and Nyquist make it so Dats and Z can play on the top line with Mule or Nyquist and Flip can centre the 2nd Pair with Gus or Brunner on the line. More threats offensively now and younger legs....lets get the Eurotwins back together!

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blueadams where are you?

Geesh, its been a long time since I contributed some lines....

I get tired on the NON shuffling when its needed....example, Cleary is a THIRD line player and needs to stay there! Franzen needs to put up 80-90 points on the top line or get demoted... I am still hoping once the CBA is settled there are going to be some teams that need to dump some salary and hope that Franzen is outta here! Still have the issue with too many forwards too! So unless a trade is made, there will be a ton of line shuffling!

K guys....everyone put your name in the hat. Starting lineup today is as follows:

Gustavsson - Kindl - Dats

Franzen - Kronwall

2 for 5...not bad.

On a serious note, the only thing that grinds my gears about the line shuffling is that Dats and Z still only get to play together like 4 games a year when not on the PP together. Hopefully the additions of Brunner and Nyquist make it so Dats and Z can play on the top line with Mule or Nyquist and Flip can centre the 2nd Pair with Gus or Brunner on the line. More threats offensively now and younger legs....lets get the Eurotwins back together!

He no longer plays goalie? :ninja:

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He no longer plays goalie? :ninja:

Why play goalie when Cleary is our goalie?

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Why play goalie when Cleary is our goalie?

That's what the hat gave you for a goalie? I got Zetterberg playing goal. He will wear goggles in lieu of a helmet as pucks cannot penetrate his beard. Don't worry though guys, Z's offensive production will be covered by one of the ice girls.

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Here is a topic that must have been discussed at some point, but I am eager to hear peoples current thoughts on the matter.

Simply put - I think Babcock shuffles our lines way too much and thereby does not allow chemistry to properly build. I understand his line shuffling philosophy in theory, and can see where you may use it occasionally as a kick in the pants to slumping players, but I do not understand doing it almost every... single... game.

Thoughts?

I agree. I love Babcock, but I think he shuffles a bit much too. The first thing every hockey player says when they come back from injury is, "it's going to take a while to get my timing back". So obviously timing is really important. As such, going from Bertuzzi on a wing to Filppula probably f***s with that a little bit.

All in all I think Babs is a great coach, but I think most of the time it's better to let players work through slumps rather than mix it up all the time.

Motown4013 likes this

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Not really sure what you all are seeing. Seems to me the majority of shuffling done in the last few seasons has been due to injuries.

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Fil - Dats - Mule ----------------Fil and Dats have shown chemistry together, Franzen provides the bigger body that works in the dirty areas

Bert - Z - Brunner---------------Z and Brunner will have chemistry after playing for Zug together, Bert provides the big body

Goose - Helm - Sammy--------Goose brings skill, Helm brings speed and defense, Sammy brings 3rd line scoring

Toots - Abby - Cleary----------Grind line baby

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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Bowman loved to shuffle lines like nobody's business. The degree to which he shuffled lines I think forced players to play on their toes and be especially aware of their surroundings, as well as force them to be receptive to their teammates, which results in a strong, unified team come playoffs. I suspect Babcock is following Bowman's philosophy, but to a lesser degree than Scotty applied it, and consequently we are seeing diminished effects.

But who knows, I'm not a coach. Bowman did a lot of things other coaches wouldn't dare try, even today.

Bowman also had a team full of Hall of Famers. Kinda loses its effect when you're putting one dimensional guys in roles they aren't suited for, or aren't suited for any longer.

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Bowman also had a team full of Hall of Famers. Kinda loses its effect when you're putting one dimensional guys in roles they aren't suited for, or aren't suited for any longer.

Bowman could have played Lids at center, Feds at goalie, and Stevie at healthy scratch, and he still would have had a better chance at winning the game than most teams.

I think you can shuffle all you want but there are certain do's and don'ts (referring to top 6 lines as they provide the most scoring and require the most chemistry)

Abby, Helm, Toots, Emmerton, Miller, and Eaves, should never be in the top 6

Abby and Helm should not play together because we need them at 3rd and 4th line center (assuming Emmerton won't play)

Dats, Zberg, Mule, and Fil, should always be in the top 6

Dats and Zberg should not play together because we need them at center for the 1st and 2nd lines

If Tuzzi is in the top 6 he should never play on the same line as Franzen. We are not a huge team and we cannot afford to have our bigger power forwards clumped on one line. We need them paired with skilled players so they can get to the dirty areas where the skilled players won't always be.

So basically if I was Babs my line chart would look like this:

______ - Dats - _______

______ - Zberg - ______

______ - Helm - _______

______ - Abby - _______

Available top 6ers to insert and play around with: Franzen (as long as he's not paired with Bert), Bert (as long as he's not paired with Franzen), Val, Sammy, Cleary, Goose, Brunner

Then depending on who gets pushed down to the third line Babs can make an energy or scoring line out of the third line. Say Bert, Franzen, Val, and Cleary are the top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Sammy, Goose, or Brunner on the third line and have a third scoring line. Say Franzen, Val, Goose, and Brunner are your top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Cleary, Sammy, or Bert on the third line and have more of a bigger/defensive third line.

I know a lot of people here like to see Z and D play together but I'm of the opinion that Datsyuk and Zetterberg should not play on the same line together unless it's a power play. I know it's awesome when they play together, but we need them centering separate lines. You don't win hockey games with superstar 1st lines. We need the skill, defense, and leadership they bring on both of our top 6 lines. I read an article a little while back that said while the D/Z line is awesome and effective, the team does better when they're separated (I'll try to dig it up if some really has to make me). As in we tend to win more games and our other 16 skaters do better when they are separated. So Z and D should always be seperate.

Sorry, lockouts got me bored.

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Fil - Dats - Mule ----------------Fil and Dats have shown chemistry together, Franzen provides the bigger body that works in the dirty areas

Bert - Z - Brunner---------------Z and Brunner will have chemistry after playing for Zug together, Bert provides the big body

Goose - Helm - Sammy--------Goose brings skill, Helm brings speed and defense, Sammy brings 3rd line scoring

Toots - Abby - Cleary----------Grind line baby

Love these lines. The only thing i'd maybe switch is Bert and Goose.

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I'd prefer him to shuffle the lines more than not. I'd want all the players able to play with anyone on that roster rather than only have certain combinations we can roll out. I don't care if Babs throws someone like Abby up on the first for the final period or for a non-essential game if it meant getting a goal or two that we needed. Wont happen but I wouldn't really mind.

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Bowman could have played Lids at center, Feds at goalie, and Stevie at healthy scratch, and he still would have had a better chance at winning the game than most teams.

I think you can shuffle all you want but there are certain do's and don'ts (referring to top 6 lines as they provide the most scoring and require the most chemistry)

Abby, Helm, Toots, Emmerton, Miller, and Eaves, should never be in the top 6

Abby and Helm should not play together because we need them at 3rd and 4th line center (assuming Emmerton won't play)

Dats, Zberg, Mule, and Fil, should always be in the top 6

Dats and Zberg should not play together because we need them at center for the 1st and 2nd lines

If Tuzzi is in the top 6 he should never play on the same line as Franzen. We are not a huge team and we cannot afford to have our bigger power forwards clumped on one line. We need them paired with skilled players so they can get to the dirty areas where the skilled players won't always be.

So basically if I was Babs my line chart would look like this:

______ - Dats - _______

______ - Zberg - ______

______ - Helm - _______

______ - Abby - _______

Available top 6ers to insert and play around with: Franzen (as long as he's not paired with Bert), Bert (as long as he's not paired with Franzen), Val, Sammy, Cleary, Goose, Brunner

Then depending on who gets pushed down to the third line Babs can make an energy or scoring line out of the third line. Say Bert, Franzen, Val, and Cleary are the top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Sammy, Goose, or Brunner on the third line and have a third scoring line. Say Franzen, Val, Goose, and Brunner are your top 6 wingers. Then you can put 2 of Cleary, Sammy, or Bert on the third line and have more of a bigger/defensive third line.

I know a lot of people here like to see Z and D play together but I'm of the opinion that Datsyuk and Zetterberg should not play on the same line together unless it's a power play. I know it's awesome when they play together, but we need them centering separate lines. You don't win hockey games with superstar 1st lines. We need the skill, defense, and leadership they bring on both of our top 6 lines. I read an article a little while back that said while the D/Z line is awesome and effective, the team does better when they're separated (I'll try to dig it up if some really has to make me). As in we tend to win more games and our other 16 skaters do better when they are separated. So Z and D should always be seperate.

Sorry, lockouts got me bored.

First of all, you have some good information here, but I don't like half of it lol. Let me explain why;

Bertuzzi is way too slow now to be a top-6 and does not put up the numbers anymore either.

Cleary should never be in the top-6

Nyquist played phenominal on a line with Datsyuk last year (they have great chemistry so put the young kid there to learn from the best)

Zetterberg has 5 goals and 2 assists in two games in the swiss league, and brunner has assisted on 4 of those goals. They have great chemistry and are tearing it up out there.

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)

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So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)

I like your lines overall... not sure I would have Bert on the 4th line or Quincey/Colaiacovo on the 3rd defensive pairing... Ericsson should be on the 3rd paring. Also, here's hoping that Quincey steps up and Colaiacovo surprises us with solid performance.

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First of all, you have some good information here, but I don't like half of it lol. Let me explain why;

Bertuzzi is way too slow now to be a top-6 and does not put up the numbers anymore either.

Cleary should never be in the top-6

Nyquist played phenominal on a line with Datsyuk last year (they have great chemistry so put the young kid there to learn from the best)

Zetterberg has 5 goals and 2 assists in two games in the swiss league, and brunner has assisted on 4 of those goals. They have great chemistry and are tearing it up out there.

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)

No room for Cleary on your team eh? And how are we supposed to take you seriously again?

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No room for Cleary on your team eh? And how are we supposed to take you seriously again?

If Cleary can come out and prove he has recovered from his knee injury and play well, I would put him on the third line, problem is we have a lot of talent and no where to put it all. If Cleary plays the way he did last year he is not very useful to us, that is why I did not include him. Cleary a few years back was good, but not for a little while, but hey here is to hoping I am wrong. :guns:

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Z-dats-filppula

Nyquist-Helm-Abdelkader

Dats-Z-Filppula

Franzen-Helm-Cleary

Sit the other guys til we are ahead by 4 goals.

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Z-dats-filppula

Nyquist-Helm-Abdelkader

Dats-Z-Filppula

Franzen-Helm-Cleary

Sit the other guys til we are ahead by 4 goals.

that just seems like a recipe for disaster... no Brunner?

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If Cleary can come out and prove he has recovered from his knee injury and play well, I would put him on the third line, problem is we have a lot of talent and no where to put it all. If Cleary plays the way he did last year he is not very useful to us, that is why I did not include him. Cleary a few years back was good, but not for a little while, but hey here is to hoping I am wrong. :guns:

The guy was hurt all season long, it's not like he underperformed. I find it remarkable that anyone would suggest that a VERY important part of this team would need to prove himself after gutting out an entire season with injury. Certainly few would have suggested that about Kronwall or Franzen when they both hardly played during the 09-10 season.

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The guy was hurt all season long, it's not like he underperformed. I find it remarkable that anyone would suggest that a VERY important part of this team would need to prove himself after gutting out an entire season with injury. Certainly few would have suggested that about Kronwall or Franzen when they both hardly played during the 09-10 season.

Anyone who'd scratch Cleary is probably also scratching their neck like Tyrone Biggums

First of all, you have some good information here, but I don't like half of it lol. Let me explain why;

Bertuzzi is way too slow now to be a top-6 and does not put up the numbers anymore either.

Cleary should never be in the top-6

Nyquist played phenominal on a line with Datsyuk last year (they have great chemistry so put the young kid there to learn from the best)

Zetterberg has 5 goals and 2 assists in two games in the swiss league, and brunner has assisted on 4 of those goals. They have great chemistry and are tearing it up out there.

So my lines would be:

Franz~Dats~Nyquist

Flip~Z~Brunner

Miller~Helm~Sammy

Bert~Abby~Tootoo

Kronwall~White

Ericsson~Smith

Quincey~Colaiacovo~Kindl(healthy scratch)

Ok this is a "line shuffling" thread, all I suggested was that Bert, Cleary, Sammy, Nyquist, and Brunner, are those guys that you can shuffle in and out of the top 6. Nyquist and Brunner are great but they are not going to play every game in the top 6 their first year, you'll see Sammy, Cleary, and Tuzzi in there when things need to be changed up. They are not the premier top 6ers but they aren't liabilities either.

kipwinger likes this

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The guy was hurt all season long, it's not like he underperformed. I find it remarkable that anyone would suggest that a VERY important part of this team would need to prove himself after gutting out an entire season with injury. Certainly few would have suggested that about Kronwall or Franzen when they both hardly played during the 09-10 season.

It's not about "proving himself", it's about proving he is injury free and capable at playing at the same level he once was. Just because he played all season injured doesn't necessarily mean he will be good again once he is healed. For all we know he may have caused permanent damage to his knee playing on it all year while it was injured. All I am saying is if he proves he is healthy and playing 100% or close to it, he can be on the lineup this year, if I were Babcock and felt he was underperforming in training camp, he would be a healthy scratch, or maybe a 4th liner.

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