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Red Wings Off Season: I Give Them an A


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#21 number9

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:41 PM

Forgot White. Oops.

Filppula is the only guy out of any of those who will deserve anything.


are you joking?

Filppula will demand somewhere between 4 and 5 if he stays on track (1-2 mil more)
White is on a bargain contract right now and will probably get the same as Quincey (1 mil more)
Howard is worth well beyond 2 mil. Probably should expect at least 4 for him (2 mil more)
If Brunner turns out to be the real deal he'll probably expect something like Flips got on his first contract (2 mil more)

We'll have to spend around 5-7 mil if those guys perform as expected

and on your roster you have 2.5 to spend

And I have not even gotten to RFA's yet, which will include Smith, Nyquist, and Kindl. All will be lookign for 1-way deals that will effect the cap.

Again, Suter and Parises Minny contracts would have crippled us financially. Thankfully Holland didn't sign them to those ridiculous contracts.

EDIT: Not to mention you'll have Cleary and Miller as UFA and Mursak as RFA as well

Edited by number9, 30 October 2012 - 01:51 PM.


#22 LeftWinger

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:47 PM

are you joking?

Filppula will demand somewhere between 4 and 5 if he stays on track (1-2 mil more)
White is on a bargain contract right now and will probably get the same as Quincey (1 mil more)
Howard is worth well beyond 2 mil. Probably should expect at least 4 for him (2 mil more)
If Brunner turns out to be the real deal he'll probably expect something like Flips got on his first contract (2 mil more)

We'll have to spend around 5-7 mil if those guys perform as expected

and on your roster you have 2.5 to spend

And I have not even gotten to RFA's yet, which will include Smith, Nyquist, and Kindl. All will be lookign for 1-way deals that will effect the cap.

Again, Suter and Parises Minny contracts would have crippled us financially. Thankfully Holland didn't sign them to those ridiculous contracts.

EDIT: Not to mention you'll have Cleary and Miller as UFA and Mursak as RFA as well


Not to mention if Brunner scores 25-30 goals they will need to re-sign him too!

They can sign Dekeyser and either trade Kindl or let him go RFA...

agreed on the other points, they really cannot let White go after losing Rafalski, Lidstrom and Stuart...not unless the somehow acquire a stud via the fire sale....

Trade Emmy and Mursak....they have Miller and a soon to be returning Eaves...I'd also let Cleary go or trade him at the deadline (his NTC expired last deadline.) There are too many folks waiting to come up and they are running out of options to play in Rapids...

(sure wish Holland would have offer a contract to Welsh...Carolina is damn lucky to have him!)

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#23 Z and D for the C

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

Not saying Holland didn't try better. Just saying at the end of the day, he failed at improving this team in any significant way as to challenge for the Conference.

But hey, it's all make-believe anyway, since there won't be a season. Who knows which players won't return for the future. We already have an old team.

It's just been a s***ty year for hockey, especially here on LGW. Short playoff, disappointing offseason and now an empty year with no hockey ahead.


Just for the record, my post wasn't in response to yours or anything. I agree with you (except I think we'll have a season yet, even if a half season).

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#24 The Axe

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:40 PM

Not to mention if Brunner scores 25-30 goals they will need to re-sign him too!

They can sign Dekeyser and either trade Kindl or let him go RFA...

agreed on the other points, they really cannot let White go after losing Rafalski, Lidstrom and Stuart...not unless the somehow acquire a stud via the fire sale....

Trade Emmy and Mursak....they have Miller and a soon to be returning Eaves...I'd also let Cleary go or trade him at the deadline (his NTC expired last deadline.) There are too many folks waiting to come up and they are running out of options to play in Rapids...

(sure wish Holland would have offer a contract to Welsh...Carolina is damn lucky to have him!)


If Brunner can score 25 to 30 goals? Are you f'ing mad? Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a hard time getting to 30. But no namer Swiss League guy is gonna just light it up out of the blue? Delusional. We will be lucky if he's still in the NHL after his first year. He's small and not lightning fast. Im not saying that Danny Brieres cant happen. But its 1 out of 1000. Parise is a sure thing. Thats why the Wings should have ponied up.


#25 kipwinger

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:29 PM

If Brunner can score 25 to 30 goals? Are you f'ing mad? Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a hard time getting to 30. But no namer Swiss League guy is gonna just light it up out of the blue? Delusional. We will be lucky if he's still in the NHL after his first year. He's small and not lightning fast. Im not saying that Danny Brieres cant happen. But its 1 out of 1000. Parise is a sure thing. Thats why the Wings should have ponied up.


Actually by all accounts he's got Helm like speed, so yes, he is lightening fast.

High end speed references: here...http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1232733-detroit-red-wings-get-to-know-new-red-wing-damien-brunner

and here...http://detroit.sbnation.com/detroit-red-wings/2012/6/22/3110401/damien-brunner-red-wings-rumors

and here...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_sign_damien_brunner.html

and here...http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/damien-brunner/

Of course none of this means he'll score 30, or even 20 goals. But in an effort to be contradictory, or simply out of sheer negligence, you've made a statement that is by every account demonstrably false.

Edited by kipwinger, 30 October 2012 - 10:36 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#26 number9

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:08 PM

If Brunner can score 25 to 30 goals? Are you f'ing mad? Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a hard time getting to 30. But no namer Swiss League guy is gonna just light it up out of the blue? Delusional. We will be lucky if he's still in the NHL after his first year. He's small and not lightning fast. Im not saying that Danny Brieres cant happen. But its 1 out of 1000. Parise is a sure thing. Thats why the Wings shes should have ponied up.


Well he is playing in the same league as Nash, Thornton, Spezza, Seguin, and Tavares, and he's out playing all of them.....and Zug isn't even a good team, yet he still out plays them.

We'll see how the season comes along. Gives me some hope though. There's a reason this guy was pursued by a bunch of different teams.

#27 The Axe

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

Actually by all accounts he's got Helm like speed, so yes, he is lightening fast.

High end speed references: here...http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1232733-detroit-red-wings-get-to-know-new-red-wing-damien-brunner

and here...http://detroit.sbnation.com/detroit-red-wings/2012/6/22/3110401/damien-brunner-red-wings-rumors

and here...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_sign_damien_brunner.html

and here...http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/damien-brunner/

Of course none of this means he'll score 30, or even 20 goals. But in an effort to be contradictory, or simply out of sheer negligence, you've made a statement that is by every account demonstrably false.


I watched his highlights. Not even close to Helm speed. Sorry. He was beating a lot of weak goalies from 30 feet with a good wrist shot from 20 feet in open space. Something he wont have in the NHL.

#28 Dabura

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:11 AM

No reason to think this team comes out of the first round, if there's a season.

They've regressed the last several years and the offseason hardly improved the roster, to warrant giving them an A.


Pretty much.

We got rocked by the Predators because we couldn't score to save our lives and we were generally terrible defensively.

We couldn't score because we're too small and soft (especially in the top-6), and we lack an elite goal-scorer.

We added Samuelsson, Tootoo, Nyquist, Brunner.

Fail.


We lost the second-best defenseman in the history of the game.

We were terrible when he was out of the lineup this past season.

We added Carlo Colaiacovo.

:shout:


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#29 StormJH1

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

I wasn't as hard on Holland as most were this summer, and had we known for sure then that we'd be at Halloween with no hockey and no end to the lockout in sight, I think more even more people would've supported Holland's "conservatism" (for lack of a better term).

But that article is terribly flawed! A pure "points per game" and "dollars per point" (which they actually screwed up and got backwards in their table) comparison? Suter and Colaiacovo are defenseman - are points their ONLY contribution to a hockey team?! Brunner's numbers were from outside the NHL. I think they hired Malcolm Gladwell to do the statistical analysis in that thing...

People need to let this go. Parise and Suter WERE significantly better players than any of the guys we picked up. They WOULD have made the Wings significantly better than they are now. But...

(1) It was out of our control!!! I don't know what people wanted the Wings to do...throw ANOTHER $20 million at each player? It wasn't a money decision at all. When Michigan-born players like Rafalski or Modano decided to put on the Winged Wheel, everyone collectively said "Hmm, yeah! Makes sense!". When Parise and Suter did the same thing up in this area, people are somehow appalled.

(2) We don't even know how this is all going to play out. Two weeks ago, it looked like we were going to start hockey up with a $59 million cap (or a cap that would get there in short time). If I'm the Wild and I already have depth problems on my lower lines and defensive corps...AND I need to shed about $10 million in salary...ruh roh.

And it's not like we lost any of the players we lost through negligence either! Lidstrom retired because he's 40! Not because Kenny didn't sweet talk him. Stuart left because he missed his family. I suppose Illitch could have sold the team to L.A., but that'd be kinda like throwing the baby out with the bath water, don't you think? And I'm not losing sleep about losing Hudler or Holmstrom because it was time for both of those to happen.

#30 kipwinger

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:39 PM

I watched his highlights. Not even close to Helm speed. Sorry. He was beating a lot of weak goalies from 30 feet with a good wrist shot from 20 feet in open space. Something he wont have in the NHL.


You win, apparently if you say something enough it makes it true. Just out of curiousity, can you find even one other source that says he doesn't have incredible speed?

Didn't think so.

Edit: Hey what do you know, here's an article where the guy's coach actually says "lightening fast" when describing Brunner. Granted, you've seen a few of his highlights and so you'd probably disagree, but I suppose just this once I'll go with the guy that knows what he's talking about.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...-red-wings.html

Edited by kipwinger, 31 October 2012 - 05:11 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 The Axe

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

You win, apparently if you say something enough it makes it true. Just out of curiousity, can you find even one other source that says he doesn't have incredible speed?

Didn't think so.

Edit: Hey what do you know, here's an article where the guy's coach actually says "lightening fast" when describing Brunner. Granted, you've seen a few of his highlights and so you'd probably disagree, but I suppose just this once I'll go with the guy that knows what he's talking about.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...-red-wings.html


No. I cant find an article. Unless i look in Switzerland. This guy will be NOTHING more than likely. Just like all the rest of the Wings' "prospects". Notice how Smith and Emmerton came up after a year and are seeing legit time in their early 20's? Thats a prospect. Guys that score in hockey leagues 4 levels down from the NHL when they are 26 years old are called LONG SHOTS.

#32 kipwinger

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:44 AM

No. I cant find an article. Unless i look in Switzerland. This guy will be NOTHING more than likely. Just like all the rest of the Wings' "prospects". Notice how Smith and Emmerton came up after a year and are seeing legit time in their early 20's? Thats a prospect. Guys that score in hockey leagues 4 levels down from the NHL when they are 26 years old are called LONG SHOTS.


Wow, you're really something. Two posts ago I agreed with you and said that there's a real good chance he never scores 20 or 30 goals in the NHL. The point of contention, which I guess I need to remind you of, was the fact that in your first post you said the reason he wouldn't score in the NHL is because he's small and not "lightening fast". Then, after I corrected you and provided evidence, you kept arguing based on your viewing of his "highlight videos", and now you've changed the discussion completely and are railing about Emmerton and Smith.

I only ever wanted to correct your false impression that Brunner is not "lightening fast". He is. That doesn't mean he'll be any good in the NHL, but it can't hurt.

In the future it might help to admit when you're wrong. Also, it might help to not try and change the discussion around each time you're wrong on a point. Here's how it should go...

Axe: Brunner is small and not lightening fast
Kip: Yes he is lightening fast, here's proof
Axe: Oh, I guess I was wrong. Still that's no guarantee he'll be good in the NHL
Kip: Agreed.

Edited by kipwinger, 02 November 2012 - 09:45 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#33 The Axe

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

Wow, you're really something. Two posts ago I agreed with you and said that there's a real good chance he never scores 20 or 30 goals in the NHL. The point of contention, which I guess I need to remind you of, was the fact that in your first post you said the reason he wouldn't score in the NHL is because he's small and not "lightening fast". Then, after I corrected you and provided evidence, you kept arguing based on your viewing of his "highlight videos", and now you've changed the discussion completely and are railing about Emmerton and Smith.

I only ever wanted to correct your false impression that Brunner is not "lightening fast". He is. That doesn't mean he'll be any good in the NHL, but it can't hurt.

In the future it might help to admit when you're wrong. Also, it might help to not try and change the discussion around each time you're wrong on a point. Here's how it should go...

Axe: Brunner is small and not lightening fast
Kip: Yes he is lightening fast, here's proof
Axe: Oh, I guess I was wrong. Still that's no guarantee he'll be good in the NHL
Kip: Agreed.


Your "proof" is nothing more than someone from Europe saying he's fast. Thats why I blew it off. If he's so fast and has so much talent, why didnt someone grab him sooner? I decided to watch him for myself. He's NOT lightning fast.

#34 kipwinger

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM

Actually I gave you five links to choose from, four from professional sports writers and one from his coach. But that's neither here nor there. I'm actually here to apologize, I had no idea what a tremendous hockey scout you were, so much so that you defy all the scouting reports about Brunner, including those of the Penguins, Lightening, and the Detroit Red Wings own Ken Holland and Mike Babcock, who had this to say about Brunner, "The thing for us is he’s high, high paced, he scored, looks like he has tons of skill."

Please don't forget about all of us lowly fan forum members after you make it big as an NHL scout and/or coach and/or general manager. You have a very promising career ahead of you.

Edited by kipwinger, 03 November 2012 - 12:01 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#35 number9

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:56 PM

Your "proof" is nothing more than someone from Europe saying he's fast. Thats why I blew it off. If he's so fast and has so much talent, why didnt someone grab him sooner? I decided to watch him for myself. He's NOT lightning fast.


Having speed doesn't make you good (see: Cory Emmerton) having speed and being able to use it does. I'm sure Damien has been fast for a while, but he's just now showing he can use it to produce. Late bloomer.

#36 Dabura

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:57 AM

However, a shortened season really helps us because in a short time span it's anyone's game. Motivation and heart can carry a team farther over half a season than over a full 82 game stretch.


Not to be a ******-y downer, but...

Don't Toews me, bro!


#37 GoWings1905

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

I think an "A" is a little generous. At best, I would give it a "C". Love the Tootoo move to add a different element to an already strong bottom-six. Not really thrilled about signing an aging Samuelsson (again) and expecting him to contribute offensively in a top-six role. The top-six has really been stagnant for years -- Zetterberg and Datsyuk have to generate everything offensively and in the playoffs especially lately, we don't have forwards that can score goals in tight games. Filppula had a terrific breakout season. Can he duplicate it or even get better? We all know what Franzen provides. The other two spots belong to maybe Bertuzzi and Samuelsson? I have said it in other threads previously discussing the off-season, but the Red Wings are going to need Nyquist and/or Brunner to contribute immediately whenever hockey resumes.

The defense is bad. Losing three of your top four d-men in two years is not a good situation especially when one of them is Nick Lidstrom. Obviously there's no replacing him and Holland did his best to secure the closest thing in Suter. I can't get upset over that, but it does bother me more wasn't done in advance when it was clear Nick's days were winding down and Stuart was going back to California. Colaiacovo is a decent depth signing (if healthy), however, who logs big minutes on this defense now besides Kronner? You are asking for major leaps out of Quincey and Ericsson, plus rapid development from Smith. I think all of that is certainly possible, but it's a rather scary position to be in.

A lot of things would have go to well for the Red Wings to even win a playoff round with this roster. Remember, they won ONE game last spring with Lidstrom around. The transition to being younger, bigger and faster is finally taking place at least.
 
 
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#38 Dabura

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

I think an "A" is a little generous. At best, I would give it a "C". Love the Tootoo move to add a different element to an already strong bottom-six. Not really thrilled about signing an aging Samuelsson (again) and expecting him to contribute offensively in a top-six role. The top-six has really been stagnant for years -- Zetterberg and Datsyuk have to generate everything offensively and in the playoffs especially lately, we don't have forwards that can score goals in tight games. Filppula had a terrific breakout season. Can he duplicate it or even get better? We all know what Franzen provides. The other two spots belong to maybe Bertuzzi and Samuelsson? I have said it in other threads previously discussing the off-season, but the Red Wings are going to need Nyquist and/or Brunner to contribute immediately whenever hockey resumes.

The defense is bad. Losing three of your top four d-men in two years is not a good situation especially when one of them is Nick Lidstrom. Obviously there's no replacing him and Holland did his best to secure the closest thing in Suter. I can't get upset over that, but it does bother me more wasn't done in advance when it was clear Nick's days were winding down and Stuart was going back to California. Colaiacovo is a decent depth signing (if healthy), however, who logs big minutes on this defense now besides Kronner? You are asking for major leaps out of Quincey and Ericsson, plus rapid development from Smith. I think all of that is certainly possible, but it's a rather scary position to be in.

A lot of things would have go to well for the Red Wings to even win a playoff round with this roster. Remember, they won ONE game last spring with Lidstrom around. The transition to being younger, bigger and faster is finally taking place at least.


This.

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#39 puckbags

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

If Brunner can score 25 to 30 goals? Are you f'ing mad? Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a hard time getting to 30. But no namer Swiss League guy is gonna just light it up out of the blue? Delusional. We will be lucky if he's still in the NHL after his first year. He's small and not lightning fast. Im not saying that Danny Brieres cant happen. But its 1 out of 1000. Parise is a sure thing. Thats why the Wings should have ponied up.


Huh? Holland ponied up for all these guys..they didn't want to come to Detroit..it had nothing to do with the amount of money offered.

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