100 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

because having a good amount of depth in forwards is a bad thing. i'm pretty sure we could always use some forward depth every season when we get nailed with the injury bug and it destroys it. maybe that lack of scoring? i'm pretty sure i've never met a coach that never wanted to bring more skill to the table. do we need defense? absolutely but this isn't concerning the defense in this current topic. I would easily throw prospects (skilled potential) at EDM to bring a skilled forward that has chemistry with two of our current teammates. you act like we want to trade franzen for omark.

I'd totally agree with this statement if Omark were a known commodity. The problem here is that you're aren't bringing in depth, you're taking a chance on a reclamation project when the spot that you're giving him could go to...bringing in more depth. If it were a situation in which we were pondering signing a guy with (hypothetically) Patrick Eaves or Drew Miller's resume I'd be all for it. But Omark, for all his skill, can't even boast that, so if we're interested in bringing in more depth then we should look for guys that give us that, rather than take a chance on a guy who's already washed out of the NHL.

[martinezsvsu]

brunner will stay with detroit simply because all hes doing right now is developing a friendship and chemistry on the ice with z. and u know z is telling him about playing with datsyuk

[RedWingsDad]

Everyone complains about Hudler all year, then everyone complains about floating Franzen after that, and now you want to bring in a guy that is a combination of the two? I think the lockout has everyone going off their rockers lol.

All work, no hockey, makes RedWingsDad go something, something....

[Buppy]

I'd totally agree with this statement if Omark were a known commodity. The problem here is that you're aren't bringing in depth, you're taking a chance on a reclamation project when the spot that you're giving him could go to...bringing in more depth. If it were a situation in which we were pondering signing a guy with (hypothetically) Patrick Eaves or Drew Miller's resume I'd be all for it. But Omark, for all his skill, can't even boast that, so if we're interested in bringing in more depth then we should look for guys that give us that, rather than take a chance on a guy who's already washed out of the NHL.

Reclamation? He's more of prospect than anything. Promising but unproven.

He's 25 and has played two partial seasons, scored 27 points in 51 games in the first. Didn't get much of a chance the second, poor start plus Edmonton adding RNH and Smyth, better to let him continue to develop in the minors rather than fight for a 4th line spot. Breaking his ankle in the minors didn't help.

Not that we should necessarily try to get him (btw, he doesn't have a contract atm, I assume still RFA. Not listed on Edmonton's roster or non-roster on Capgeek.) but considering his contract status and the addition of Yakupov, it might be worth looking in to. Be worth a late round pick to add him to our pipeline, and he'd probably clear waivers or we could leave him in Europe for the year.

[StormJH1]

Plzzzzz say no to Omark. There's a reason Edmonton, yes EDMONTON, demoted him. He brings nothing to the table. Shows a flash of brilliance then skates around picking his nose for 20 straight games.

Omark is doing well because of Diaz, Brunner, and Z, not the opposite.

Haha. Nah, Omark only "coasts" in tie games because if, heaven forbid, he should score the go-ahead goal that would mean he wouldn't get to do his super-awesome shootout moves, you guys!

As for Brunner, look, I'm thrilled that he's back with Zug and tearing it up. But let's keep the following in mind:

(1) He's been with Zug for 5 years now, so it's not surprising that he's productive the Swiss "A" league. The question is whether his game will translate to an NHL style of play, smaller rinks, etc.

(2) Zetterberg and Omark are new additions to that team, and Zetterberg is obviously the type of player who is willing to pass and make his linemates better. It's great that they're developing "chemistry", but the increased quality of teammates (in an overall mediocre-talent league) probably has more to do with the numbers than Brunner himself.

(3) One of Brunner's best seasons with Zug was 2009-10, in which he 23 G and 35 A. But there was another player on his team who was better. This player had 30 G and 33 A, and was a former 1st round draft pick of the Vancouver Canucks. That player was Josh Holden, a guy who turned out to be, at best, a fringe 4th liner/AHL'er after several cups of tea in the NHL. That doesn't mean Brunner is automatically garbage, but when I hear "star player in (insert Euro league here)", it means about as much to me as when Mickey used to celebrate every Red Wings 4th liner with "He scored 50 goals in junior one year!"

Edited by StormJH1, 06 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Euro_Twins]

Haha. Nah, Omark only "coasts" in tie games because if, heaven forbid, he should score the go-ahead goal that would mean he wouldn't get to do his super-awesome shootout moves, you guys!

As for Brunner, look, I'm thrilled that he's back with Zug and tearing it up. But let's keep the following in mind:

(1) He's been with Zug for 5 years now, so it's not surprising that he's productive the Swiss "A" league. The question is whether his game will translate to an NHL style of play, smaller rinks, etc.

(2) Zetterberg and Omark are new additions to that team, and Zetterberg is obviously the type of player who is willing to pass and make his linemates better. It's great that they're developing "chemistry", but the increased quality of teammates (in an overall mediocre-talent league) probably has more to do with the numbers than Brunner himself.

(3) One of Brunner's best seasons with Zug was 2009-10, in which he 23 G and 35 A. But there was another player on his team who was better. This player had 30 G and 33 A, and was a former 1st round draft pick of the Vancouver Canucks. That player was Josh Holden, a guy who turned out to be, at best, a fringe 4th liner/AHL'er after several cups of tea in the NHL. That doesn't mean Brunner is automatically garbage, but when I hear "star player in (insert Euro league here)", it means about as much to me as when Mickey used to celebrate every Red Wings 4th liner with "He scored 50 goals in junior one year!"

I agree with the fact that he is unproven in the nhl, but the wings have always found a way to have guys play to their full potential in the NHL. That being said your information is incorrect, in 2011/12 he scored 24 goals, 36 assists. Which is 60 points in 45 games. To put that in perspective, if that were a 82 game season, he was on pace to hit 109 points in the swiss league, and 43/44 goals. So let's not get our hopes too high, but also not knock the guy yet, because those kind of points are quite good, and if he can transfer even half of that to the nhl and get 20+ goals and 60+ points, I would be very happy with that.

EDIT: Josh Holden also had maybe 2 good season in the swiss league, whereas no matter who his linemates have been Brunner has been very consistently good for ZUG

Edited by Euro_Twins, 06 November 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[StormJH1]

I agree with the fact that he is unproven in the nhl, but the wings have always found a way to have guys play to their full potential in the NHL. That being said your information is incorrect, in 2011/12 he scored 24 goals, 36 assists. Which is 60 points in 45 games. To put that in perspective, if that were a 82 game season, he was on pace to hit 109 points in the swiss league, and 43/44 goals. So let's not get our hopes too high, but also not knock the guy yet, because those kind of points are quite good, and if he can transfer even half of that to the nhl and get 20+ goals and 60+ points, I would be very happy with that.

EDIT: Josh Holden also had maybe 2 good season in the swiss league, whereas no matter who his linemates have been Brunner has been very consistently good for ZUG

I don't believe my information (from hockeydb.com) was incorrect. The Brunner vs. Holden stats I cited were from 2009-10, not last season. Yes, he had better numbers than Holden last year (who was then 33), and is a better player. I was simply illustrating that a player like Josh Holden is capable of even better numbers than Brunner had in that league, yet was not good in the NHL. In the current season, Dan Fritsche and Glen Metropolit are also on a point-per-game pace, and the same goes for them.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because I think we both agree that Brunner is capable of a 20 G/20 A season in the NHL, at the very least, and if he does that, it would offset the loss of a guy like Hudler at much less of a financial commitment.

The truth is that it's not really that hard for fringe AHL'ers to come up and post 20 goals in today's NHL, assuming they get enough minutes to do so. Teams like Edmonton have gotten that production out of bargain basement guys for years. But given that the Wings have stalled out a bit in producing pure goal scorers (both due to low draft position and TRADING away draft picks), AND generally demand their 3rd and 4th liners to bring something on the defensive side of the ice, 20 goals from Brunner would be particularly valuable.

[Euro_Twins]

I don't believe my information (from hockeydb.com) was incorrect. The Brunner vs. Holden stats I cited were from 2009-10, not last season. Yes, he had better numbers than Holden last year (who was then 33), and is a better player. I was simply illustrating that a player like Josh Holden is capable of even better numbers than Brunner had in that league, yet was not good in the NHL. In the current season, Dan Fritsche and Glen Metropolit are also on a point-per-game pace, and the same goes for them.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because I think we both agree that Brunner is capable of a 20 G/20 A season in the NHL, at the very least, and if he does that, it would offset the loss of a guy like Hudler at much less of a financial commitment.

The truth is that it's not really that hard for fringe AHL'ers to come up and post 20 goals in today's NHL, assuming they get enough minutes to do so. Teams like Edmonton have gotten that production out of bargain basement guys for years. But given that the Wings have stalled out a bit in producing pure goal scorers (both due to low draft position and TRADING away draft picks), AND generally demand their 3rd and 4th liners to bring something on the defensive side of the ice, 20 goals from Brunner would be particularly valuable.

Your stats were right, your information however was wrong, because you said 09/10 was his highest goal/point producing season when it was not. Yes Holden had 30 goals in 09/10, but if you look at his yearly stats it is very inconsistent, whereas Brunner is quite consistent on a goal scoring basis.

[The Axe]

Have you seen our depth at forward? We have too many forwards, most of which are skill players as well.

Everyone complains about Hudler all year, then everyone complains about floating Franzen after that, and now you want to bring in a guy that is a combination of the two? I think the lockout has everyone going off their rockers lol.



Edmonton in no way had good depth at forward when they demoted him.

Have you seen our depth at forward? We have too many forwards, most of which are skill players as well.

Everyone complains about Hudler all year, then everyone complains about floating Franzen after that, and now you want to bring in a guy that is a combination of the two? I think the lockout has everyone going off their rockers lol.



Edmonton in no way had good depth at forward when they demoted him.

I agree with you. No reason to have 20 of the same type of forward. We need SPEED, SIZE, and TOUGHNESS. The Wings have enough Skill.

[Z Winged Dangler]

I agree with you. No reason to have 20 of the same type of forward. We need SPEED, SIZE, and TOUGHNESS. The Wings have enough Skill.

That's why some of us want to let some of our 3rd/4th liners go and bring up young, big and fast players like Sheahan and Andersson to take care of the banging and crashing. If we have skilled guys like Brunner and Nyquist in the top 6 where they belong and we have Sheahan and Andersson in the bottom 6 with the likes of Helm, Tootoo, Abdelkader, Eaves and Bertuzzi I guess. Your top 6 is Nyquist-Dats-Franzen and Flip-Z-Brunner and that's a pretty solid forward unit. Then that takes care of skill, toughness, speed and that will win lots of games as well cause of the amount of responsible 2-way forwards on that team.

[kipwinger]

Reclamation? He's more of prospect than anything. Promising but unproven.

He's 25 and has played two partial seasons, scored 27 points in 51 games in the first. Didn't get much of a chance the second, poor start plus Edmonton adding RNH and Smyth, better to let him continue to develop in the minors rather than fight for a 4th line spot. Breaking his ankle in the minors didn't help.

Not that we should necessarily try to get him (btw, he doesn't have a contract atm, I assume still RFA. Not listed on Edmonton's roster or non-roster on Capgeek.) but considering his contract status and the addition of Yakupov, it might be worth looking in to. Be worth a late round pick to add him to our pipeline, and he'd probably clear waivers or we could leave him in Europe for the year.

I agree he's young and there's always a chance that he can turn his career around. However, after reading some hockey commentary out of Edmonton, I wouldn't agree that he's an unknown quantity. In fact, due to injuries and depth problems up front, Edmonton needed top six wingers and Omark frequently found himself passed over for the likes of Darcy Hordichuk, Chris Vandevelde, and Teemu Hartikainen. Furthermore, it seems as though he didn't leave a very good impression on Tom Renney while playing for the Oilers, and I'd seriously be shocked if Renney didn't put the kibosh on any Wings attempt to bring him in. I've been wrong before, but his play was shoddy while with that organization and apparently his attitude sucked. No way the Wings take a shot on this guy.

Here's a couple of the articles I dug up...
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/03/31/writing-on-the-wall-for-linus-omark/
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/04/11/linus-omark-tweets-apparent-trade-request/

[Johnz96]

I don't believe my information (from hockeydb.com) was incorrect. The Brunner vs. Holden stats I cited were from 2009-10, not last season. Yes, he had better numbers than Holden last year (who was then 33), and is a better player. I was simply illustrating that a player like Josh Holden is capable of even better numbers than Brunner had in that league, yet was not good in the NHL. In the current season, Dan Fritsche and Glen Metropolit are also on a point-per-game pace, and the same goes for them.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because I think we both agree that Brunner is capable of a 20 G/20 A season in the NHL, at the very least, and if he does that, it would offset the loss of a guy like Hudler at much less of a financial commitment.

The truth is that it's not really that hard for fringe AHL'ers to come up and post 20 goals in today's NHL, assuming they get enough minutes to do so. Teams like Edmonton have gotten that production out of bargain basement guys for years. But given that the Wings have stalled out a bit in producing pure goal scorers (both due to low draft position and TRADING away draft picks), AND generally demand their 3rd and 4th liners to bring something on the defensive side of the ice, 20 goals from Brunner would be particularly valuable.

I think he will score more than Hudler did and will be given more of an opportunity to do so because of his speed

[The Axe]

That's why some of us want to let some of our 3rd/4th liners go and bring up young, big and fast players like Sheahan and Andersson to take care of the banging and crashing. If we have skilled guys like Brunner and Nyquist in the top 6 where they belong and we have Sheahan and Andersson in the bottom 6 with the likes of Helm, Tootoo, Abdelkader, Eaves and Bertuzzi I guess. Your top 6 is Nyquist-Dats-Franzen and Flip-Z-Brunner and that's a pretty solid forward unit. Then that takes care of skill, toughness, speed and that will win lots of games as well cause of the amount of responsible 2-way forwards on that team.

Preach on!!!

[Dabura]

Granted, that's an insanely soft top-6. Not that I don't see the virtue in the bigger point you're making, Dr. Dangler. (For some reason you're a doctor. Deal with it.) And not that I really like Bertuzzi or Samuelsson or Cleary in the top-6. I just hate that our scoring lines are going to be shut the eff down in the first or second round because - wait for it - our scorers are content to pass-pass-pass-pass-shoot from the tops of the circles into the goalie's chest. (Gold sticky star for Samuelsson.)

I have a bad and not entirely baseless fear that Brunner's gonna come over here, tear it up, then get his clock cleaned on trying to cut to the net with his head down or something, then never be quite the same.

[number9]

I have a bad and not entirely baseless fear that Brunner's gonna come over here, tear it up, then get his clock cleaned on trying to cut to the net with his head down or something, then never be quite the same.

Why do you think Holland snagged Toots?

[The Axe]

Granted, that's an insanely soft top-6. Not that I don't see the virtue in the bigger point you're making, Dr. Dangler. (For some reason you're a doctor. Deal with it.) And not that I really like Bertuzzi or Samuelsson or Cleary in the top-6. I just hate that our scoring lines are going to be shut the eff down in the first or second round because - wait for it - our scorers are content to pass-pass-pass-pass-shoot from the tops of the circles into the goalie's chest. (Gold sticky star for Samuelsson.)

I have a bad and not entirely baseless fear that Brunner's gonna come over here, tear it up, then get his clock cleaned on trying to cut to the net with his head down or something, then never be quite the same.

I remember one Ducks series under Lewis where Gigueregobbled up puck after puck in his chest from 40 to 50 foot shots and the Wings still didnt change their play. Without Lidstrom scoring on and running the pp, we are in for some bad times with all our "skill" players. You are on target, Dabura.

[number9]

I remember one Ducks series under Lewis where Gigueregobbled up puck after puck in his chest from 40 to 50 foot shots and the Wings still didnt change their play. Without Lidstrom scoring on and running the pp, we are in for some bad times with all our "skill" players. You are on target, Dabura.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula/Franzen, Kronwall and White on our first PP unit? Omg we might as well start playing AHL teams

[The Axe]

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula/Franzen, Kronwall and White on our first PP unit? Omg we might as well start playing AHL teams

Wouldnt you feel better with Yandle?

[number9]

Wouldnt you feel better with Yandle?

Yeah, and I also would have felt better with Ryan Suter on the PP, but it would've cost too much to get him.

[Euro_Twins]

Wouldnt you feel better with Yandle?

Well when Phoenix has to drop assets in a fire sale, Yandle will be ours for peanuts
EDIT: For clarifaction I am referring to when the team folds...

Edited by Euro_Twins, 12 November 2012 - 01:04 AM.