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Motown4013

Has your opinion of kenny changed?

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Hey All-

Interesting thoughts while we keep up hope that the lockout will end and the Wings will be skating again. Anyway, here is a question.

I remember the barrage of critisim that Holland took after he "did nothing" during the Free Agency period. Some questioned his committment to the team...some called for his job. Some ranted that he "missed the boat on guys like Suter and Parise" and called him out on adding people like Tootoo and Sammy. Kenny must have got a really good tan because he took a ton of heat this summer.

Looking back, has your perception changed of what he did. The GM's meet and talk. They are directed by the owners on what to do and how to do things. Do you feel that like a lot of GM's, Holland knew a lockout was probable and didnt want the team to be over the cap, or to tie up funds that may not be availabe. Do you think this had nothing to do with Holland's choices at the trade deadline and stand by your assessment of him?

thoughts?

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Holland did the best he could this summer. Can't fault him for Suter choosing to play elsewhere.

My complaint will always be with Holland's lack of action in the years leading up to this off-season. Rafalski was a surprise retirement, but everyone knew Nick's days were dwindling and Stu was going back to California.

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I still don't understand the Holland hate. It's not like the man can force the hand of free agents. He tried his best, and obviously put in some damn effort while doing so. He was in talks with numerous different agents, traveled to go visit them, and in the end they just didn't choose him. If anything, this off-season made me smile because he was so aggressive compared to previous seasons.

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Holland did the best he could this summer. Can't fault him for Suter choosing to play elsewhere.

My complaint will always be with Holland's lack of action in the years leading up to this off-season. Rafalski was a surprise retirement, but everyone knew Nick's days were dwindling and Stu was going back to California.

Props to you for not holding Parise and Suter over Kenny's head, like so many other fans do. I don't see any reasonable viewing of that situation that would place the blame on Kenny. The Wings offered both of them tons of money, and they still opted for Minnesota. The Wild's $196 million payout to those two players was so extreme it's a partial cause of the ongoing lockout (particularly the "make whole" provision). AND, we don't even know how Minnesota will be adversely affected once a new CBA is passed (What if the Cap dropped to $59 million? What if the punitive measures proposed by the league against back diving contracts are actually passed?!).

But to the question: "Has your opinion of Kenny changed?", I don't know how it couldn't have changed. Certainly, your opinion of any ONE-year deals (such as the Carolina deal to Semin, which was my only real "WTF?" moment this summer) has changed, given that there's a pretty good chance of that deal never coming to fruition. And all of the long-term deals we DIDN'T sign, well, who knows what the outcome will be of that.

As of July 1st, these were some commonly held views regarding the upcoming CBA issues:

  • There's no way the NHL allows any type of extended work stoppage, after what happened in 2004/05
  • Wholesale changes to the Cap structure and salary rollbacks are unlikely, given that the league made $3.3 BILLION last season
  • The cancellation of the Winter Classic and, in fact, any games after January 1st was unthinkable

Think about how much has changed since then. Whether or not Holland could "foresee" those issues, I really can't say if I'd be more comfortable now with a bonus-laden deal to Weber, Nash, Parise, or Suter...or if it would be better off to let this thing play out and address some more needs through trades and next offseason's FA class.

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Ultimately no, I haven't changed my opinion as I figured that Kenny was already planning for a post-new CBA world already by making those smaller moves. While I wouldn't mind if the Wings had Suter, Parise, or some other big splash free agent, I wouldn't want to see the them crippled long term because of it & there's more than a fair chance that would have happened. Just figured that Kenny was playing the long game all along.

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Was totally unprepared for Lidstrom's retirement. Shouldn't have had to jump through hoops for Suter in the first place.

Basically this. This summer was Holland's hens coming to roost. Had this been unexpected, or taken within a vacuum this summer was a B-/C+, taken in light of all other details its a D.

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Was totally unprepared for Lidstrom's retirement. Shouldn't have had to jump through hoops for Suter in the first place.

Exactly.

I'm not mad at Holland for not getting Suter in the bidding war. I was disappointed he put the team in the position where he had to go for a hail mary like that.

Add to that giving up a first rounder to get back a player he gave away as a stopgap move for Stuart's departure.

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Was totally unprepared for Lidstrom's retirement. Shouldn't have had to jump through hoops for Suter in the first place.

This is exactly how I feel about it also. I don't blame him for not landing either player, but I do blame him for not preparing better for the future.

The only good news that can come out of a cancelled season this year is next year's pool of free agents will come and we still have the money to spend. A few competitive teams put themselves out of the bidding war by dropping $$$ on FAs this offseason.

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My opinion of Kenny has not changed at all. I think he played this past offseason very well. Willing to throw most of the bank at a few FA's while respecting his line in the sand moneywise. I think it played out ok. Now, these players who played the greed card are worried about getting all of the money thrown at them. Maybe he'll get a second chance at them. What if the owners get their way and don't have honor the promises they made but the players can opt out and hit FA again? Sounds fair to me. Pipedream, I know. I still have a lot of faith in Kenny and he has enough bank with me for that to last a while.

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Well...Looking back to the 2001/2002 season - Kenny got us the Cup...

The cap more or less has handcuffed both Holland, and Ilitch...That said what gets me is how he continues to seek what I'd consider to be the "smaller/soft" types in the draft (mind you even in many of the later rounds)...That's really my only beef with the man...

I'm hoping that this lockout ends soon; if we're lucky (key term here is lucky) - maybe a few teams have to jettison a few decent players that Holland could pick up on the cheap...

"Cola" - "Sammy" - "Choo-Choo-Tootoo" were solid additions that can contribute; yeah we lost out on Parise/Suter, but so did many other teams not named Minnesota.

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No.

I think he did pretty well, considering that he lost his #1 #2 and #4 defenseman in just one year... Most other GM's would have destroyed our depth at forward and sacrificed our teams future to rebuild the defense through trades. I'd rather not lose anyone or our picks, and wait for Sproul, Ouellet, Marchenko, DeKeyser, and McKee to age up.

Wouldn't say Ken was entirely unprepared either... 50% of our drafts picks over the last 2 drafts were D-men. Considering Kenny's style (building through the draft opposed to building through trades) I'd call that preparation.

Anyone who knows Holland knows that the CBA also influenced his decision making. Although it was probably his most aggressive off-season, he still played it close to the vest and didn't tie up all our money. Minny's "Big Win" is going to be their biggest mistake when the cap drops.

Goaltending: Fixed

Weak Bottom Six: Fixed

Sniper: Likely fixed (Brunner)

Weak Defense: Addressed, but not fixed (Q and Colo)

He addressed all of our needs and didn't blow up the team.

If he had landed Suter (at a reasonable price) this off-season would have been an A+ performance. However that was clearly impossible, so it seems he did the 100% best he could. I'm happy with that.

Plus he gets 10 bonus points for ditching Hudler

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my only beef is with acquiring tootoo...i think that was a mistake. but i could be wrong. i think i would have gone after semin over tootoo. we have enough role players.

hell, half the team is role players...a true scorer is needed. with pasha working on semin, he would have worked better for us than ovechkin.

but who knows...maybe brunner can be the acquistion of the decade!

Rick D likes this

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Well...Looking back to the 2001/2002 season - Kenny got us the Cup...

The cap more or less has handcuffed both Holland, and Ilitch...That said what gets me is how he continues to seek what I'd consider to be the "smaller/soft" types in the draft (mind you even in many of the later rounds)...That's really my only beef with the man...

I'm hoping that this lockout ends soon; if we're lucky (key term here is lucky) - maybe a few teams have to jettison a few decent players that Holland could pick up on the cheap...

"Cola" - "Sammy" - "Choo-Choo-Tootoo" were solid additions that can contribute; yeah we lost out on Parise/Suter, but so did many other teams not named Minnesota.

He has been doing better lately: Smith, Sheahan, Sproul, Aubry, Callahan, Bodin

I think we tend to draft small because we play the skill game. When your system requires that most of your players are skilled your gonna have to draft a lot of skilled softies. And because we always pick late, all the players who are blessed with both size and skill are gone when they get to us.

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my only beef is with acquiring tootoo...i think that was a mistake. but i could be wrong. i think i would have gone after semin over tootoo. we have enough role players.

hell, half the team is role players...a true scorer is needed. with pasha working on semin, he would have worked better for us than ovechkin.

but who knows...maybe brunner can be the acquistion of the decade!

What roles are you talking about? Tootoo and Semin are not even comparable. Tootoo is a bottom 6 agitator and Semin is a top 6 scorer. Yeah we need a sniper in the top 6, but we also need grit in the bottom 6. Tootoo brings that.

Semin is a terrible choice anyway. We don't need his laziness rubbing off on the rest of our players. I wouldn't even want him in the same room as Pulkkinen.

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He had a good run after inheriting a great franchise with lots of money, and had success transitioning that franchise to a post lockout/salary cap era.

However, the last few offseasons and trading deadlines have shown that Holland and the Red Wings aren't really that special anymore.

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He had a good run after inheriting a great franchise with lots of money, and had success transitioning that franchise to a post lockout/salary cap era.

However, the last few offseasons and trading deadlines have shown that Holland and the Red Wings aren't really that special anymore.

Well said. I think Holland is not the guy responsible for Detroit's success.

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Well said. I think Holland is not the guy responsible for Detroit's success.

I didn't say that.

He's not responsible for starting this dynasty. However, he and several others helped carry it along and keep it at or near the top.

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What roles are you talking about? Tootoo and Semin are not even comparable. Tootoo is a bottom 6 agitator and Semin is a top 6 scorer. Yeah we need a sniper in the top 6, but we also need grit in the bottom 6. Tootoo brings that.

Semin is a terrible choice anyway. We don't need his laziness rubbing off on the rest of our players. I wouldn't even want him in the same room as Pulkkinen.

a role player is one that does a lot of things, but not a specific one great.

if we have 4 lines of agitators=fun game where we lose 5-1 but threw some nasty hits!

we have enough role players...cleary, abdelkader, helm, eaves,miller,samulesson, bertuzzi ...etc.

if given the chance to acquire a sniper, or a pain in the ass "on this established team" ...I would have taken the sniper.

i wasnt comparing them just for kicks...i know they are different players. the wings have limited seating at the table, grab the one we are lacking.

yes...he is a **cough..."coaster" cough** but he has upside. see... "franzen" "hossa" "hull"

semin isnt my first choice for the wings...but he was available on a one year, and has a track record for scoring.

i just dont like tootoo, or pronger or crosby or cooke or jagr ..etc..... they have their place on teams...just not mine.

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You can't replace Lidström, Suter would have come close yes but he is nowhere near this guy. Blaming Kenny for two guys who chose to sign elsewhere, isn't fair. I mean, at the end Suter and Parise went to Minnesotta over Detroit, Philly and Pittsburgh, so going home was a strong factor for both.

Getting The Monster was a very good move and given time I think it will pay off. Since the Hasek/Osgood days the Wings are having two very cpable goalies again, it also should put some pressure on Howard, never a bad thing.

I don't like the Tootoo and Samuellson signings, because I wanted Holland to go hard after Prust or Scott. Other than that, no I don't blame him for anything, the Wings have gone hard after both top UFAs they wanted to play elsewhere, it happens you can't do anything about it.

Add to that the stupid cap Holland and Illitch are limited in terms of what they can do.

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IMO the only teams that had successful off-seasons were Calgary, Carolina, Montreal, Rangers, and Tampa. Most other teams didn't change much or lost out. So i'm not too worried....the only team I fear that really got better is New York, their lookin dopeeeee

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IMO the only teams that had successful off-seasons were Calgary, Carolina, Montreal, Rangers, and Tampa. Most other teams didn't change much or lost out. So i'm not too worried....the only team I fear that really got better is New York, their lookin dopeeeee

Agreed the Rangers are going to be a real threat once again, best goaltender in the NHL, great defense and their top 6 is at good as it gets.

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a role player is one that does a lot of things, but not a specific one great.

if we have 4 lines of agitators=fun game where we lose 5-1 but threw some nasty hits!

we have enough role players...cleary, abdelkader, helm, eaves,miller,samulesson, bertuzzi ...etc.

if given the chance to acquire a sniper, or a pain in the ass "on this established team" ...I would have taken the sniper.

i wasnt comparing them just for kicks...i know they are different players. the wings have limited seating at the table, grab the one we are lacking.

yes...he is a **cough..."coaster" cough** but he has upside. see... "franzen" "hossa" "hull"

semin isnt my first choice for the wings...but he was available on a one year, and has a track record for scoring.

i just dont like tootoo, or pronger or crosby or cooke or jagr ..etc..... they have their place on teams...just not mine.

Well by your definition of a role player I'd agree on Sammy, Cleary, and Tuzzi. But not the rest of them. While they're all good on defense, specifically Abby brings grit, Helm brings speed, and Eaves and Miller bring penalty killing.

Toots isn't as good defending as those 4 are but he brings a lot to the bottom 6. Specifically things we don't have much of on this team too. He'll bring grit, energy, agitation, and bottom-6 scoring. Sorry that you have a personal vendetta against him, I'd be willing to bet he ends up being our best off-season move and a fan favorite.

Yeah we need a sniper, but we also needed our bottom 6 retooled. Tootoo is a part of that retooling.

Semin brings scoring, but he only brings it to 41 games a year. The other 41 he brings locker room cancer. Plus we have young scorers who need his time in the top 6. I'm already happier with Brunner over Semin.

You can't replace Lidström, Suter would have come close yes but he is nowhere near this guy. Blaming Kenny for two guys who chose to sign elsewhere, isn't fair. I mean, at the end Suter and Parise went to Minnesotta over Detroit, Philly and Pittsburgh, so going home was a strong factor for both.

Getting The Monster was a very good move and given time I think it will pay off. Since the Hasek/Osgood days the Wings are having two very cpable goalies again, it also should put some pressure on Howard, never a bad thing.

I don't like the Tootoo and Samuellson signings, because I wanted Holland to go hard after Prust or Scott. Other than that, no I don't blame him for anything, the Wings have gone hard after both top UFAs they wanted to play elsewhere, it happens you can't do anything about it.

Add to that the stupid cap Holland and Illitch are limited in terms of what they can do.

Prefered Prust as well, however he got overpaid, glad we didn't give him that contract. Scott is just a big dumb pylon.

Agreed the Rangers are going to be a real threat once again, best goaltender in the NHL, great defense and their top 6 is at good as it gets.

Top goalie tandem. Amazing forward lines. If they could get one more big D-man I'd hand them the cup right now (and they have the cap space to do it!)

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