• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Motown4013

Has your opinion of kenny changed?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I'm on the other side of the point on the Parise discussion, I'd have gladly spent 9 mill + on Suter and Parise. Those are two players that have proven year in year out to be elite at their position without any off the ice distractions.

Am I missing something or did Holland come out and say they weren't interested in either? Because from what I recall we were right in there among the last few teams that had a shot at both. So where does this whole Holland chose "Sammy+tootooo+bertuzzi" over "Parise" come from? Imagination?

Holland came out and said at the end, atleast from what I remember, that he went after Suter strictly near the end. Parise had become out of range for money, and he dropped the interest in grabbing him. He wasn't willing to spend that much money, nor tie the hands of the franchise for just two players. While they are great players, this is where GM's become good and better. There are way too many GM's nowadays that would throw the checkbook out the window for the talent, just in hopes that it improves their team regardless if it ties the hands of their franchise. The great GM's like Holland won't let this happen, and have enough knowledge to know what it causes. Do you want one championship, or the shot at 8 over the course of 8 years? I'll take the continued success everyday of the week, and twice on sunday. Too many GM's are willing to put everything forth for one championship, then they go on a firesale when players want increased salaries. Once that happens, everyone starts complaining about player salaries and the inflation. Listen, you don't have to sign the contract, you can develop a team through the draft and insert pieces where needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

Holland came out and said at the end, atleast from what I remember, that he went after Suter strictly near the end. Parise had become out of range for money, and he dropped the interest in grabbing him. He wasn't willing to spend that much money, nor tie the hands of the franchise for just two players. While they are great players, this is where GM's become good and better. There are way too many GM's nowadays that would throw the checkbook out the window for the talent, just in hopes that it improves their team regardless if it ties the hands of their franchise. The great GM's like Holland won't let this happen, and have enough knowledge to know what it causes. Do you want one championship, or the shot at 8 over the course of 8 years? I'll take the continued success everyday of the week, and twice on sunday. Too many GM's are willing to put everything forth for one championship, then they go on a firesale when players want increased salaries. Once that happens, everyone starts complaining about player salaries and the inflation. Listen, you don't have to sign the contract, you can develop a team through the draft and insert pieces where needed.

We got 14 mil per invested in Dats and Hank. Why not 18 mil per in 2 younger elite guys? Tying up Hank, Flip, Dats, Kronwall, Suter, and Parise for 40 mil per would be what I would do. Fill in the other 17 spots with 1.5 mil per guys and call it a team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We got 14 mil per invested in Dats and Hank. Why not 18 mil per in 2 younger elite guys? Tying up Hank, Flip, Dats, Kronwall, Suter, and Parise for 40 mil per would be what I would do. Fill in the other 17 spots with 1.5 mil per guys and call it a team.

yeah a few key injuries and you're the worst team in the league

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

yeah a few key injuries and you're the worst team in the league

Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year? Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001? We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury. Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year? Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001? We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury. Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage.

Don't even know how to respond to this...

"Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year?" No

"Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001?" No

"We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury." No

"Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage." 2002 and 2012 are utterly incomparable, you must be joking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our blue line is ultra-mediocre, and it shouldn't be. And, if we're going to seriously contend for the Cup, it can't be. But everyone seems A-OK with it. Certainly Holland does. All of which makes me feel like I've slipped into an alternate reality or something.

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White

Quincey - Ericsson

Smith - Colaiacovo

Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

Again, though, the thing that really gets me is, It should never have come to this! We shouldn't be pinning our hopes on a 2-3-years-away prospect influx (since when is it Holland's style to put any sort of pressure on our prospects, let alone expect them to restore a mediocritized blue line to Lidstrom-era-greatness?) We shouldn't be looking at other teams' blue lines and saying, "Well, they're not all that amazing. So we're fine." What happened to being the class of the West? Being ruthlessly over-prepared? Being altogether Awesome?

Holland has been - and may very well still be - in cruise control re: our D. And it sucks.

Either that or he has some impossibly long-con-ish plan that he's been working for the last several years which'll make everything better. (I'm not holding my breath.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. I wouldn't say we stocked up on "garbage" but Holland did not address the weaknesses of the team. And that defense scares me. We need to remember that there wasn't much to choose from, Holland made his pushes and got outbid. As frustrating as that is, it happens sometimes. There aren't nearly as many elite players anymore, at least not with contracts expiring. The cap and lifetime contracts really eliminated the possibilities of trades and free agency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our blue line is ultra-mediocre, and it shouldn't be. And, if we're going to seriously contend for the Cup, it can't be. But everyone seems A-OK with it. Certainly Holland does. All of which makes me feel like I've slipped into an alternate reality or something.

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White

Quincey - Ericsson

Smith - Colaiacovo

Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

Again, though, the thing that really gets me is, It should never have come to this! We shouldn't be pinning our hopes on a 2-3-years-away prospect influx (since when is it Holland's style to put any sort of pressure on our prospects, let alone expect them to restore a mediocritized blue line to Lidstrom-era-greatness?) We shouldn't be looking at other teams' blue lines and saying, "Well, they're not all that amazing. So we're fine." What happened to being the class of the West? Being ruthlessly over-prepared? Being altogether Awesome?

Holland has been - and may very well still be - in cruise control re: our D. And it sucks.

Either that or he has some impossibly long-con-ish plan that he's been working for the last several years which'll make everything better. (I'm not holding my breath.)

Alright so let's trade Flips and Nyquist for Subban or Yandle

Kronwall - Subban/Yandle

Quincey - White

Smith - Ericsson

Colo

^ Looks better...

Franzen - Datsyuk - Sammy

Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Brunner

Cleary - Helm - Eaves

Miller - Abby - Tootoo

^ depends on how much you like that though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright so let's trade Flips and Nyquist for Subban or Yandle

Kronwall - Subban/Yandle

Quincey - White

Smith - Ericsson

Colo

^ Looks better...

Franzen - Datsyuk - Sammy

Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Brunner

Cleary - Helm - Eaves

Miller - Abby - Tootoo

^ depends on how much you like that though

You can add in Sheahan as the 13th forwards for games in Canada once he gets deported for being "super drunk" and driving :lol:

On a serious note, I'm in the group of people that is not worried about our D. Ericsson is becoming the shutdown Dman that Stuart used to be and Smith is a future star. Don't care what anyone else thinks....kid is gonna win the Calder when hockey starts next season. We have more young forwards to keep the energy up and some of the best 2-way forwards in the NHL. Coliacovo is a solid addiiton especially if he holds up the 3rd pairing. I was actually very excited to see the Wings play this year. If they stay healthy, not losing guys like Helm and Fil for stretches and keep some line chemistry, the boys could go deep in the playoffs and contend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can add in Sheahan as the 13th forwards for games in Canada once he gets deported for being "super drunk" and driving :lol:

On a serious note, I'm in the group of people that is not worried about our D. Ericsson is becoming the shutdown Dman that Stuart used to be and Smith is a future star. Don't care what anyone else thinks....kid is gonna win the Calder when hockey starts next season. We have more young forwards to keep the energy up and some of the best 2-way forwards in the NHL. Coliacovo is a solid addiiton especially if he holds up the 3rd pairing. I was actually very excited to see the Wings play this year. If they stay healthy, not losing guys like Helm and Fil for stretches and keep some line chemistry, the boys could go deep in the playoffs and contend.

Justin Schultz. Currently leading the ahl in scoring for a rookie D-man. Pretty impressive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White

Quincey - Ericsson

Smith - Colaiacovo

Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

The Kings weren't steamrolling everything all the way to the cup. They certainly struggled in the regular season and had to change up their system to be successful. They also rode a VERY hot goalie that could change a game all by himself. Not every team has a big, mobile, destructive defense so we can't pretend that's all that exist in the NHL nowadays. Are teams getting bigger and are players harder to play against? Absolutely, but let's not make it out to seem like all 29 teams are going to be wiping us up and down the floor with their giant defense. Now, as much as I don't like our defense, I think many are underestimating what we have in our hand. We got rid of Hudler and Emmerton and replaced them with Sammy, Brunner, and Tootoo. I like this. We took someone whom can produce, but is horrible at backchecking and has no size. We added someone whom loves to miss the net, but can actually backcheck and will be in position more than what Hudler was ever capable of. Brunner brings more speed to the team, and in todays NHL speed can and will kill. Emmerton didn't do s*** last season, and if it wasn't for losing him to waivers we probably would've thrown him back into the system in Grand Rapids. Tootoo brings much needed size, with added production over Emmerton. Brunner is going to be the risk, but he's already working with Zetterberg. They're destroying it over there, and getting much needed confidence. This will translate back in America (their confidence and chemistry, brunner will still have to convert over to smaller ice). As much as our defense goes, yes we lost Lidstrom but we didn't lose Lidstrom in his prime or in 2008/9. We lost a 2012 Lidstrom. As much as it hurts to say, you could see his game starting to decline and mistakes were being made, someone unheard of and out of character for the non-human defensemen and captain. We added Carlo, to take over for Kindl. Ericsson has been improving, regardless of how much we hate him or not, each and every season. He will have more roles added to him now with the diminished core. To the people to say he is worthless and sucks, look at how much our PK hurt when he was gone. Even Mike Babcock himself made the notion on how much he missed his presence. It's the small things gents, and they add up. We may not have the big names, or the superstars filling our lineups but all of this stuff tweaks an already solid lineup. Players will need to step up, and they will make mistakes, but we're not in that big of a hole as everyone wants to make it out to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

comparing 1-6 D-spots

#1 Kronwall < Lidstrom

#2 White = White

#3 Quincey < Kronwall

#4 Smith > Stuart

#5 Ericsson = Ericsson

#6 Colaiacovo > Kindl

#1 and #3 spots got worse while the #4 and #6 spots got better. #1 and #3 are more important so the D did take a hit, but it's not all bad. Talent is just more evenly distributed now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so sure if I'd rank Smith over Stewie...That said with Stewie gone - Smith will most likely see a fair amount of action if/when the league gets back to playing.

Going off the notion that Ericsson basically outplayed Stuart at the end of the season (he's getting old). And I think Smith has more upside than Ericsson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going off the notion that Ericsson basically outplayed Stuart at the end of the season (he's getting old). And I think Smith has more upside than Ericsson.

I definitely agree that our defense isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is, however, I am pretty concerned about the lack of a shutdown #1 guy to match against top flight forwards, the lack of any proven defensive minded defensemen (Ericsson will need to keep doing what he did at the end of last season for me to be convinced he's ready to do this night in and night out), and the lack of size in the d-core. With our lineup, teams with size at forward scare the hell out of me.

Smith might turn out to be a true star in the league, but I'm certainly not convinced it will be in the defensive zone, and I doubt his ability to play against big bodied guys. Same with Kronwall, Quincey, White, and Colaiacovo. All of them can score, but none are really solid defesively, and they're fairly small to boot. A lot is riding on Ericsson and Kind's development. That's why I wanted Allen so badly, which you and I agree on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Justin Schultz. Currently leading the ahl in scoring for a rookie D-man. Pretty impressive.

Would be nice to be out there every shift with Hall, Eberle, and RNH =p

Shultz is damn good no doubt, but they are only one year apart Shultz had a .93 PPG in college, while Smith had a .91(while being younger in college). Add to the different style that they play, Smith is a much more rugged and physical defenseman, while Shultz is more of a cerebral puck mover. I'm not saying Smith is better, but we should definitely be excited here in Detroit for him, he's excelled at each and every level and is one of the best defenseman prospects outside the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

Guys, lets be honest. We are going to get TORCHED without Lidstrom. He was a special talent that held things together. He got hurt last year and the team went from 1st to 5th in 20 games. Id the season was 100 games long, we would have missed the playoffs. Not signing any REAL TALENT this off season is going to cripple us. A full year of lockout might be the only saving grace, realistically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, lets be honest. We are going to get TORCHED without Lidstrom. He was a special talent that held things together. He got hurt last year and the team went from 1st to 5th in 20 games. Id the season was 100 games long, we would have missed the playoffs. Not signing any REAL TALENT this off season is going to cripple us. A full year of lockout might be the only saving grace, realistically.

Comparing midseason injuries to off-season roster changes is an absolute joke. Yes, we had a downward spiral last season when Nicky got hurt but that's expected when your #1 D man goes down mid season... whom are you going to replace him with? The magical lockdown defensemen you've been hiding in your closet all season? Off-season roster changes happen and players get the time to adjust to systems during training camp. Apples to oranges my friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

I think you just love to read your own posts. Do you actually believe this arguement?

Pretty sure we made a huge pitch for Suter and at the end of the day, he chose to play with his BFF. Just for the record, the 11 million dollars we spent was spend on depth...no one on that list is a scrub...Do I LOVE Sammy...Um, NO....but he can assist with some production. Q had a crap year but 2 years ago everyone bitched that we traded him when he had huge points....Everyone complained that we needed to get tougher...BAM, TooToo is signed and you ***** about that. Holland didnt puss out so when the cap goes down, we will be laughin' and thinking Kenny is a genius.

PS As for youth coming in, hows that Emmerton situation working out? Just sayin'....n

Edited by Motown4013

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

I think you just love to read your own posts. Do you actually believe this arguement?

Pretty sure we made a huge pitch for Suter and at the end of the day, he chose to play with his BFF. Just for the record, the 11 million dollars we spent was spend on depth...no one on that list is a scrub...Do I LOVE Sammy...Um, NO....but he can assist with some production. Q had a crap year but 2 years ago everyone bitched that we traded him when he had huge points....Everyone complained that we needed to get tougher...BAM, TooToo is signed and you ***** about that. Holland didnt puss out so when the cap goes down, we will be laughin' and thinking Kenny is a genius.

PS As for youth coming in, hows that Emmerton situation working out? Just sayin'....n

I like Emmerton! 71 games last year. Everyone is going to be surprised by him eventually. He's the new Tim Taylor/Craig Johnson. The guy who goes unseen, but does his job and is just there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Emmerton! 71 games last year. Everyone is going to be surprised by him eventually. He's the new Tim Taylor/Craig Johnson. The guy who goes unseen, but does his job and is just there.

Lol....you say you like Emmerton but Tootoo is a scrub? We will see, five games in when Tootoo absolutely demolishes someone like Thornton or Perry when they go after Datsyuk. No one....I mean NO ONE thinks Emmerton is a more valuable piece on this team that Tootoo. His mother doesn't even think that. You can hate 22 all you want be he adds a dimension to this team that we havent had since Downey left.

Emmerton love but Bert, Sammy Tootoo, Monster and Q are all scrubs. Ok friend!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

Lol....you say you like Emmerton but Tootoo is a scrub? We will see, five games in when Tootoo absolutely demolishes someone like Thornton or Perry when they go after Datsyuk. No one....I mean NO ONE thinks Emmerton is a more valuable piece on this team that Tootoo. His mother doesn't even think that. You can hate 22 all you want be he adds a dimension to this team that we havent had since Downey left.

Emmerton love but Bert, Sammy Tootoo, Monster and Q are all scrubs. Ok friend!

Tootoo got benched. Emmerton played. Nuff said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tootoo got benched. Emmerton played. Nuff said.

Jordin Tootoo;

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM

2011-12 Nashville Predators NHL 77 6 24 30 92 -5 3 0 0 0 4

Cory Emmerton;

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts

PIM

2011-12 Detroit Red Wings NHL 71 6 4 10 14 1 5 1 0 1 2

First thing I see when I look at this, wow look at that they play for two completely different teams. This apparently went far over your head, as you tried comparing and making an argument that concerned two different franchises, two different rosters, and two different general managers and coaches. Somehow, you think you can argue if one player doesn't play for one roster.. he magically automatically couldn't play for another roster. I'm not even sure what the hell you were trying to get across there, but it was plain dumb. Now, back to this point you were trying to get across? I see 71 games played from the next all-star formerly known as Dany Heatly... I mean Cory Emmerton with a productive season gaining 10 points (6G/4A). Now, I look at Mr.Tootoo whom apparently shouldn't have any recorded stats because he didn't play for the Nashville Predators. He has in a recorded 77 games, a productive point total of 30 points (6G/24A). Well my friend, i'm certainly not a resident expert of math, nor do I wish to be one, but I sure as hell know that Mr.Tootoo dished over 20 more assist than Mr.Emmerton and got the same amount of goals. So somehow, we require yet again another left handed shot, a basic 4th liner whom would've went down to the minors if it wasn't for losing him to waivers, because he "does his role." I'm sorry, but I just can't see how you could ever argue Emmerton's worth over Tootoo's at this point and time in the franchise. We need a rough and tough banger, we need more right handed shots, we don't NEED more passers but he can bring more than Emmerton can, and we need someone who will stink eye someone if they try and pull some s*** with our top 6. Maybe Emmerton will develop into something... but he's already 24 and showing no drastic worth. In forward terms, he should be in his prime or damn near it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Axe

Jordin Tootoo;

Cory Emmerton;

First thing I see when I look at this, wow look at that they play for two completely different teams. This apparently went far over your head, as you tried comparing and making an argument that concerned two different franchises, two different rosters, and two different general managers and coaches. Somehow, you think you can argue if one player doesn't play for one roster.. he magically automatically couldn't play for another roster. I'm not even sure what the hell you were trying to get across there, but it was plain dumb. Now, back to this point you were trying to get across? I see 71 games played from the next all-star formerly known as Dany Heatly... I mean Cory Emmerton with a productive season gaining 10 points (6G/4A). Now, I look at Mr.Tootoo whom apparently shouldn't have any recorded stats because he didn't play for the Nashville Predators. He has in a recorded 77 games, a productive point total of 30 points (6G/24A). Well my friend, i'm certainly not a resident expert of math, nor do I wish to be one, but I sure as hell know that Mr.Tootoo dished over 20 more assist than Mr.Emmerton and got the same amount of goals. So somehow, we require yet again another left handed shot, a basic 4th liner whom would've went down to the minors if it wasn't for losing him to waivers, because he "does his role." I'm sorry, but I just can't see how you could ever argue Emmerton's worth over Tootoo's at this point and time in the franchise. We need a rough and tough banger, we need more right handed shots, we don't NEED more passers but he can bring more than Emmerton can, and we need someone who will stink eye someone if they try and pull some s*** with our top 6. Maybe Emmerton will develop into something... but he's already 24 and showing no drastic worth. In forward terms, he should be in his prime or damn near it.

Just type in "tootoo benched". Nuff said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just type in "tootoo benched". Nuff said

If you can't even give back some actual feedback, or atleast add some actual credibility to your comments, I find no use in supplying you with actual knowledge. You're like talking to a wall, that responds in the form of a 5 year old.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this