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Has your opinion of kenny changed?


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#21 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:10 AM

You can't replace Lidström, Suter would have come close yes but he is nowhere near this guy. Blaming Kenny for two guys who chose to sign elsewhere, isn't fair. I mean, at the end Suter and Parise went to Minnesotta over Detroit, Philly and Pittsburgh, so going home was a strong factor for both.

Getting The Monster was a very good move and given time I think it will pay off. Since the Hasek/Osgood days the Wings are having two very cpable goalies again, it also should put some pressure on Howard, never a bad thing.

I don't like the Tootoo and Samuellson signings, because I wanted Holland to go hard after Prust or Scott. Other than that, no I don't blame him for anything, the Wings have gone hard after both top UFAs they wanted to play elsewhere, it happens you can't do anything about it.

Add to that the stupid cap Holland and Illitch are limited in terms of what they can do.

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#22 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:12 AM

IMO the only teams that had successful off-seasons were Calgary, Carolina, Montreal, Rangers, and Tampa. Most other teams didn't change much or lost out. So i'm not too worried....the only team I fear that really got better is New York, their lookin dopeeeee

#23 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:18 AM

IMO the only teams that had successful off-seasons were Calgary, Carolina, Montreal, Rangers, and Tampa. Most other teams didn't change much or lost out. So i'm not too worried....the only team I fear that really got better is New York, their lookin dopeeeee


Agreed the Rangers are going to be a real threat once again, best goaltender in the NHL, great defense and their top 6 is at good as it gets.

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#24 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:47 AM

a role player is one that does a lot of things, but not a specific one great.

if we have 4 lines of agitators=fun game where we lose 5-1 but threw some nasty hits!
we have enough role players...cleary, abdelkader, helm, eaves,miller,samulesson, bertuzzi ...etc.
if given the chance to acquire a sniper, or a pain in the ass "on this established team" ...I would have taken the sniper.

i wasnt comparing them just for kicks...i know they are different players. the wings have limited seating at the table, grab the one we are lacking.
yes...he is a **cough..."coaster" cough** but he has upside. see... "franzen" "hossa" "hull"

semin isnt my first choice for the wings...but he was available on a one year, and has a track record for scoring.

i just dont like tootoo, or pronger or crosby or cooke or jagr ..etc..... they have their place on teams...just not mine.


Well by your definition of a role player I'd agree on Sammy, Cleary, and Tuzzi. But not the rest of them. While they're all good on defense, specifically Abby brings grit, Helm brings speed, and Eaves and Miller bring penalty killing.

Toots isn't as good defending as those 4 are but he brings a lot to the bottom 6. Specifically things we don't have much of on this team too. He'll bring grit, energy, agitation, and bottom-6 scoring. Sorry that you have a personal vendetta against him, I'd be willing to bet he ends up being our best off-season move and a fan favorite.

Yeah we need a sniper, but we also needed our bottom 6 retooled. Tootoo is a part of that retooling.

Semin brings scoring, but he only brings it to 41 games a year. The other 41 he brings locker room cancer. Plus we have young scorers who need his time in the top 6. I'm already happier with Brunner over Semin.


You can't replace Lidström, Suter would have come close yes but he is nowhere near this guy. Blaming Kenny for two guys who chose to sign elsewhere, isn't fair. I mean, at the end Suter and Parise went to Minnesotta over Detroit, Philly and Pittsburgh, so going home was a strong factor for both.

Getting The Monster was a very good move and given time I think it will pay off. Since the Hasek/Osgood days the Wings are having two very cpable goalies again, it also should put some pressure on Howard, never a bad thing.

I don't like the Tootoo and Samuellson signings, because I wanted Holland to go hard after Prust or Scott. Other than that, no I don't blame him for anything, the Wings have gone hard after both top UFAs they wanted to play elsewhere, it happens you can't do anything about it.

Add to that the stupid cap Holland and Illitch are limited in terms of what they can do.


Prefered Prust as well, however he got overpaid, glad we didn't give him that contract. Scott is just a big dumb pylon.

Agreed the Rangers are going to be a real threat once again, best goaltender in the NHL, great defense and their top 6 is at good as it gets.


Top goalie tandem. Amazing forward lines. If they could get one more big D-man I'd hand them the cup right now (and they have the cap space to do it!)

#25 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:17 AM

Exactly I am so glad, they didn't get L. Schenn otherwhise they'd be unstoppable, but I think they've lost some toughness in terms of Prust and Scott.

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#26 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:33 AM

Exactly I am so glad, they didn't get L. Schenn otherwhise they'd be unstoppable, but I think they've lost some toughness in terms of Prust and Scott.


True but with Callahan, Boyle, and Rupp, plus adding Asham, Pyatt, and Halpern, their still tougher than us!

#27 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:54 AM

Half the time Semin plays like he has doorknobs in his hockey pants, not bringing him here was a good decision.

Tootoo i'm fine with, but Prust would have been a better option for that role imo.

I'm good friends with a true Rangers fan that lives in NY and I hate every minute of the Rangers having a sick team right now.

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#28 Dabura

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

You can't replace Lidström


Doesn't mean you don't bring someone in.

And I don't mean Carlo Colaiacovo.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#29 The Axe

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:48 AM

I didn't say that.

He's not responsible for starting this dynasty. However, he and several others helped carry it along and keep it at or near the top.


I agree. He didnt have much to do with our cup success. Good point, GMR.

#30 kipwinger

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

I agree. He didnt have much to do with our cup success. Good point, GMR.


Do you say this stuff because you actually believe it, or because you think it's really clever to instigate people? Seriously, I have to know.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 rick zombo

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:34 PM

Do you say this stuff because you actually believe it, or because you think it's really clever to instigate people? Seriously, I have to know.


Do you say this because you "have to know" or because you think it's clever to instigate Axe? I have to know.

And do I really "have to know" or am I just trying to be funny?
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#32 kipwinger

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

Do you say this because you "have to know" or because you think it's clever to instigate Axe? I have to know.

And do I really "have to know" or am I just trying to be funny?


Both, though I do have to wonder about anyone who can suggest that Holland didn't have anything to do with our Cups in spite of the fact that he was either wholly or partially responsible for drafting Zetterberg, Hudler, Franzen, Datsyuk, Fischer, and Kronwall, and signing or trading for Shanahan, Chelios, Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, Drake, Stuart, Malty, Kocur (the second time around), Larionov (the second time around), Samuelsson, or Cleary.

Because obviously none of those guys contributed to the cups (especially 2002 and 2008) in any serious way.

Edited by kipwinger, 21 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#33 F.Michael

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:56 PM

He has been doing better lately: Smith, Sheahan, Sproul, Aubry, Callahan, Bodin

I think we tend to draft small because we play the skill game. When your system requires that most of your players are skilled your gonna have to draft a lot of skilled softies. And because we always pick late, all the players who are blessed with both size and skill are gone when they get to us.

I understand why Holland drafted the players he did - just that guys like Lucic, and that little snot Marchand (I say "little snot" with affection since I like his style of play) were available, but Kenny went other players instead.

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#34 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:42 PM

I understand why Holland drafted the players he did - just that guys like Lucic, and that little snot Marchand (I say "little snot" with affection since I like his style of play) were available, but Kenny went other players instead.


Yes Emmerton and Matthias a couple picks before Lucic is sad plus Axelsson a couple before Marchand

#35 Carman

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

Doesn't mean you don't bring someone in.

And I don't mean Carlo Colaiacovo.


Who?

Did you want to give up Filpulla, Smith and a first for Brent Burns? Did we even have a 30+ goal scorer to trade for Jack Johnson? Would either of those offensive minded defenseman really fit into the long term with this defense.

To me there hasn't been defenseman moved that would insure the top pairing outside of Burns and Suter. Kenny did the reasonable thing and not deal away the future, and hope to sign a top pairing defenseman through free agency. He tried to get Suter, he just missed. If he missed on Enstrom, Yandle getting traded for scraps, or something else I'd understand the dissapointment, but Holland can't get people to move their top defenseman at will, Holland's put us in great position to have plenty of cap space, and assets. I'm very happy with the current organization and feel we have a lot of flexibility that other playoff teams would dream to have.

Edited by Carman, 21 November 2012 - 05:05 PM.


#36 kipwinger

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

Who?

Did you want to give up Filpulla, Smith and a first for Brent Burns? Did we even have a 30+ goal scorer to trade for Jack Johnson? Would either of those offensive minded defenseman really fit into the long term with this defense.

To me there hasn't been defenseman moved that would insure the top pairing outside of Burns and Suter. Kenny did the reasonable thing and not deal away the future, and hope to sign a top pairing defenseman through free agency. He tried to get Suter, he just missed. If he missed on Enstrom, Yandle getting traded for scraps, or something else I'd understand the dissapointment, but Holland can't get people to move their top defenseman at will, Holland's put us in great position to have plenty of cap space, and assets. I'm very happy with the current organization and feel we have a lot of flexibility that other playoff teams would dream to have.


I think the point that he was trying to make is that over the last three off seasons at least 10-15 defensemen have been moved (or were available) that are significantly better than anyone we've got aside from Kronwall. Of course they weren't going to replace Lidstrom or be a number one d-man, but they were still better than what we're left with now.

Edit: Here's just a cursory glance at some of the defensemen who have been moved in the last three offseasons, none of whom landed in Detroit but all of whom are an upgrade over almost every defenseman on our team. This list is limited to top four d-men, and doesn't include defensemen acquired in trades. Still, it does give you an idea that guys were out there to be had.

2012: Suter, Carle, Wideman, Allen, Garrison
2011: Bieksa, Hamerlik, Jovanovski, Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Salo, Erhoff,
2010: Gonchar, Hamhuis.

Edited by kipwinger, 21 November 2012 - 06:25 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#37 Playmaker

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

I think being a GM behind a computer screen is an easy job. Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Can't say I'm thrilled with all the moves that Holland makes, but I think overall, he does his job well. I think the lack of moves this offseason were correctly dictated by the lack of a CBA. I like the fact the Wings don't make moves for one season, but think long term as well.

That said, I would have rather seen another pure goal scorer (enough role players already). IMO, not EVERY player on the ice has to be good defensively. They need someone who shoots the puck at the net. There had to be some good reason why Semin wasn't signed. Maybe Datsyuk wasn't on board with it. Just speculating, but it seems like he would have filled a gaping hole and wasn't all that expensive or a long term committment.

Not a big Tootoo fan either. I don't think he's tough or gritty, just annoying and not to the other team. Reminds me a bit of Sean Avery. He takes bad penalties at inopportune times, not to mention, he still has a recent problem with alcohol.

It'd be nice to have a season to be able to judge.

#38 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

I think the point that he was trying to make is that over the last three off seasons at least 10-15 defensemen have been moved (or were available) that are significantly better than anyone we've got aside from Kronwall. Of course they weren't going to replace Lidstrom or be a number one d-man, but they were still better than what we're left with now.

Edit: Here's just a cursory glance at some of the defensemen who have been moved in the last three offseasons, none of whom landed in Detroit but all of whom are an upgrade over almost every defenseman on our team. This list is limited to top four d-men, and doesn't include defensemen acquired in trades. Still, it does give you an idea that guys were out there to be had.

2012: Suter, Carle, Wideman, Allen, Garrison
2011: Bieksa, Hamerlik, Jovanovski, Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Salo, Erhoff,
2010: Gonchar, Hamhuis.


Rights traded

Suter wanted to play with Parise at home in Minnesota
Carle wanted to be back in Tampa
Garrison wanted to be in his hometown Vancouver
Bieksa was never moved and said publicly he had no intention of leaving Vancouver
Jovo wanted to be back in Florida
Pitkanen wanted to play with Jokinen in Carolina
Hamhuis wanted to be home in BC

So you have Gonchar, Salo, Hamrlik, and Allen. And Gonchar, Hamrlik, and Salo are all old shells of their former selves

Dang we shoulda chased Bryan Allen



#39 number9

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

I think being a GM behind a computer screen is an easy job. Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Can't say I'm thrilled with all the moves that Holland makes, but I think overall, he does his job well. I think the lack of moves this offseason were correctly dictated by the lack of a CBA. I like the fact the Wings don't make moves for one season, but think long term as well.

That said, I would have rather seen another pure goal scorer (enough role players already). IMO, not EVERY player on the ice has to be good defensively. They need someone who shoots the puck at the net. There had to be some good reason why Semin wasn't signed. Maybe Datsyuk wasn't on board with it. Just speculating, but it seems like he would have filled a gaping hole and wasn't all that expensive or a long term committment.

Not a big Tootoo fan either. I don't think he's tough or gritty, just annoying and not to the other team. Reminds me a bit of Sean Avery. He takes bad penalties at inopportune times, not to mention, he still has a recent problem with alcohol.

It'd be nice to have a season to be able to judge.


If we had signed Semin that would have sent a message to the rest of our players that you can float and still be a wing. Not a good example for our young guys.

I think he had problems with pain killers too. You'd be surprised how many players abuse drugs and alcohol, most are capable of keeping it on the DL though.

#40 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

Well Marchand can act "tough'" because he knows guys like Boychuck, Chara, Shawn Thornton and Lucic are watching his back, he wouldn't do so otherhwise.

Like I said I really love the signing of the Monster, Colaiacovo what a pain to spell is just a depth signing so whatever but Tootoo and Samuellson aren't bringing anything we need, which is goalscoring and toughness. Tootoo while decent in his own class is more an agitator that an enforcer I'd compare him to Burrows, Marchand and Avery.

Top defenseman these days are very rare, if they don't want to wear the winged wheel it's sad but as a GM you need to have a plan B, C, D and maybe even F. Behind the GM behind a pc is an easy task but there are tons of reasons, why NHL GMs are making tons of money these guys are smart and know the business side of the job very very well.

So if you ask me imho would have prefered to not sign Tootoo and Samuellson in order to give some young guns more icetime and let them grow into a bigger role with the big club. Prust for sure is overpaid but he brings it all, every night and can add something Tootoo doesn't provide.

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