161 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

Rights traded

Suter wanted to play with Parise at home in Minnesota
Carle wanted to be back in Tampa
Garrison wanted to be in his hometown Vancouver
Bieksa was never moved and said publicly he had no intention of leaving Vancouver
Jovo wanted to be back in Florida
Pitkanen wanted to play with Jokinen in Carolina
Hamhuis wanted to be home in BC

So you have Gonchar, Salo, Hamrlik, and Allen. And Gonchar, Hamrlik, and Salo are all old shells of their former selves

Dang we shoulda chased Bryan Allen

1. They weren't traded, their rights were.

2. I'm not really too upset about a guy who is mildly dirty as long as he's physical. That Allen video didn't break my heart.

3. Salo and Gonchar had stats either better or favorable to Kronwall last season, despite their age. Hamrlik wasn't great last season, but his 13 points and plus 11 are still better than all but two of our returning d-men.

4. Also, I think you're stretching this "wanted to be back in..." such and such place argument. Carle played 12 games in Tampa about four years ago. Fairly sure his roots aren't sunk too deep. Jovo hadn't played in Florida in 13 years, and I can't find one source that suggests that the reason Pikanen signed with Carolina is because of Jussi Jokinen.

Edited by kipwinger, 21 November 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[DMAC 25]

holland is one of the best GM's in the league and arguably the #1 GM, that being said even the greatest cant always get everything. my opinion hasnt changed on kenny at all, sure suter and parise are good but idk if their as good as their contracts says they are. im just glad kenny finally brought in a little grit this year instead of hoping bertuzzi's gloves come un stiched from his hands

[Motown4013]

I agree that future planning for Lids should have started happening after we won the cup in 2008. How long did people really think he was going to play.

On another note, I cant predict whether or not Holland knew there was going to be a lockout but he is an intelligent and sophisticated GM...very respected and i would imagine he would have some clue as to what the league and his peers were thinking. Based on that assumption, I dont think he handcuffed the team with a major bonus signings or outrageoustacts and I respect him for that. If the Cap rolls back, teams are gonna be f4cked...and the wings really aren't!

[number9]

1. They weren't traded, their rights were.

2. I'm not really too upset about a guy who is mildly dirty as long as he's physical. That Allen video didn't break my heart.

3. Salo and Gonchar had stats either better or favorable to Kronwall last season, despite their age. Hamrlik wasn't great last season, but his 13 points and plus 11 are still better than all but two of our returning d-men.

4. Also, I think you're stretching this "wanted to be back in..." such and such place argument. Carle played 12 games in Tampa about four years ago. Fairly sure his roots aren't sunk too deep. Jovo hadn't played in Florida in 13 years, and I can't find one source that suggests that the reason Pikanen signed with Carolina is because of Jussi Jokinen.

1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

[The Axe]

1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

We are spending 3 mil on Sammy. Horrible.

[kipwinger]

1. Hence why I said "Rights traded"

2. Wasn't meant to

3. Signing Gonchar for 5.5 in 2010 would have been dumb. We still had Rafalski Stuart and Lidstrom. Salo's 3.75 cap hit takes him till he's 40. We need that money the next few years to give our young guys raises, instead it would be wasted on a 38-40 year old fast declining. Have no idea what your talking about with Hammer. Everyone one of our D-men outscored him last year except Ericsson, who had just 2 fewer points. (Smith had 7 pts in 14 gp and likely would have) (Kindl matched him playing 13 fewer games).

4. Jussi and Joni grew up playing together in Finland and are best friends. My bad on Carle, for some reason I thought Tampa drafted him, though I don't think he's worth 5.5. Jovo continued to live in Florida during those 13 years, I'm sure now that he's close to retirement he wanted to return home.

Like i said, why didn't Kenny chase Bryan Allen???

Yeah, I guess I misunderstood you. I was definitely in favor of signing Allen as well.

[The Axe]

Yeah, I guess I misunderstood you. I was definitely in favor of signing Allen as well.

So you dont think Kenny did a good job?

[Dabura]

(Belated response, sorry.)

The "Who?" game is lame. I don't know who Kenny should've-would've-could've picked had his head not been inserted firmly up his arse.

(Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. And our top-4 at present is, what, Kronwall-White--Quincey-Ericsson? Seriously?)

[number9]

(Belated response, sorry.)

The "Who?" game is lame. I don't know who Kenny should've-would've-could've picked had his head not been inserted firmly up his arse.

(Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. And our top-4 at present is, what, Kronwall-White--Quincey-Ericsson? Seriously?)

Smith

[Dabura]

Still.

[evilzyme]

saw this from HFB a few days ago, guess noone wanted to spread it but here's some kenny love:

http://espn.go.com/b...ost/_/id/20361?

"There are some incredibly smart GMs out there, guys like Ken Holland and Lou Lamoriello," said Whitney. "They’re not allowed to say anything but what the league is trying to do now is say, 'We don’t trust you GMs, we want to put in a system that tells you how to run your teams now. We’re going to cut your legs out. Kenny, I know you’ve got a genius mind when it comes to contracts and maneuvering things, but we’re not going to allow that anymore. We’re going to make it so the worst GM in the league can compete with you because your hands are tied.'"

Edited by evilzyme, 26 November 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[kipwinger]

So you dont think Kenny did a good job?

Look, as far as GM's go I think Holland is one of the best, so I think he does a good job. However, you can't lose 3 of your top 4 defensemen in the course of two years and not bring somebody in. Obviously you can't replace Lidstrom, but you can replace Stuart and a very old and beat up Rafalski. Players were available, they weren't signed for one reason for another. I think that was a mistake. So to answer your question, yes I think he does a good job, but he didn't that time.

[Dabura]

Holland is the best GM in the league. That's why our D situation really irks me.

[Carman]

Look, as far as GM's go I think Holland is one of the best, so I think he does a good job. However, you can't lose 3 of your top 4 defensemen in the course of two years and not bring somebody in. Obviously you can't replace Lidstrom, but you can replace Stuart and a very old and beat up Rafalski. Players were available, they weren't signed for one reason for another. I think that was a mistake. So to answer your question, yes I think he does a good job, but he didn't that time.

We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

Edited by Carman, 26 November 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[The Axe]

We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

[Carman]

Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

I'm pretty sure he did try and get Suter. Talking numbers does no good because we'll never know the actual truth. And considering the situation with Parise it's safe to say at the very least money wasn't everything for him. We were one of the few teams that had a shot at both Suter and Parise. We are going to be the team that is going to be linked to every big name free agent, we still have 8+ million in cap space, with Cleary's 3 mill off the books in a year.

We aren't in a bad situation right now, ideally we would have landed Suter, but let's not act like Holland didn't make an effort for Suter, was on a beach somewhere burning Red Wings jerseys yelling at the top of his lungs" I hate the Detroit fans I hope they enjoy all these s*** players I just got!"

And considering how this lock out is going, Holland might be even more of a genius by waiting to sign elite players after the new agreements get in place, we might get a better deal for a better player than Suter and Parise to 10 million each.

[The Axe]

I'm pretty sure he did try and get Suter. Talking numbers does no good because we'll never know the actual truth. And considering the situation with Parise it's safe to say at the very least money wasn't everything for him. We were one of the few teams that had a shot at both Suter and Parise. We are going to be the team that is going to be linked to every big name free agent, we still have 8+ million in cap space, with Cleary's 3 mill off the books in a year.

We aren't in a bad situation right now, ideally we would have landed Suter, but let's not act like Holland didn't make an effort for Suter, was on a beach somewhere burning Red Wings jerseys yelling at the top of his lungs" I hate the Detroit fans I hope they enjoy all these s*** players I just got!"

And considering how this lock out is going, Holland might be even more of a genius by waiting to sign elite players after the new agreements get in place, we might get a better deal for a better player than Suter and Parise to 10 million each.

Yah, im hoping it all works out too. But holmstrom signing for last 3 years, bertuzzi signings, samuelsson signing = all crap. Holland doesnt recognize the youth and energy need this team has. Hes too focused on extending guys past their usefulness. Im sick of watching 35+ year olds ( with a few exceptions like Lids) burn up minutes we should be giving to the prospects.

[evilzyme]

Yah, im hoping it all works out too. But holmstrom signing for last 3 years, bertuzzi signings, samuelsson signing = all crap. Holland doesnt recognize the youth and energy need this team has. Hes too focused on extending guys past their usefulness. Im sick of watching 35+ year olds ( with a few exceptions like Lids) burn up minutes we should be giving to the prospects.

While it's good to have prospects up and getting time to develop, they can do the same in junior leagues on farm teams. It's good to have a mixture of veteran and young players. Too many young players and they won't have the experience or mentor ship to get them far. Too many veteran players and they normally will be too predictable and easy to maintain. A mixture will allow for fresh minds, while having the veterans working their magic into them. It's always been the way the franchise works and it's going to continue to be that while Holland controls the team. While I would love for some of our prospects to be in the big show currently, I understand that if you give them more time to mature, they will mature better with the game. In that sense, and i'm not sure how old you are but i'm hoping you can understand it, look back at your twenties, hell, from 18 til 22 you go through so many changes maturity wise. You see the world different, you think different, things just make more sense. If you allow for the prospects to mature, and get into that mindframe where they understand life just alittle more, they will develop better in the big leagues. Let them get the youngness out in juniors and the farm teams, let them develop, and then slowly implement them within the system with your veterans. So while you may be sick of watching "35+ year olds" (which is funny, because I believe the average age of this team like is 28ish) it's for the better of this team, and quite frankly it's been working the past two decades.

[Dabura]

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous

We've lost Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. Here is our blue line, as it currently stands:

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colaiacovo
Kindl

That's inexcusable - especially for 1) the best GM in the league, and, frankly, 2) The Detroit Effing Red Wings.

Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

That he hasn't done so re: our blue line (and he hasn't) indicates to me that he's in La La Land, not that there hasn't been a single worthwhile deal he could've made over the past 3-4 seasons (come on, man).

To be clear: I'm not tearing him down for losing the Suter sweepstakes. I'm not tearing him down at all, really. I'm just pointing out an extremely uncharacteristic lapse in, well, call it "GM smarts." Though, yeah - there is that fear in the back of my mind that it's more than a lapse....

P.S. Top GMs don't get points for trying.

Edited by Dabura, 27 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[StormJH1]

Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

Well, heck, if the baseline standard for Holland as a GM is "deals in magic", no wonder he can't live up to the hype! Unfortunately, while Suter would have been a good signing, I don't think magic could've done the trick to get him here. Maybe witchcraft.

I think what people underappreciate about good GM's like Holland is that the majority of doing a good job is all about the moves you didn't make. Since the cap was implemented, you can't find a single long-term really bad deal that has strapped this team. Some people are hot and cold on Franzen, but his cap hit of under $4 million is totally reasonable for his level of production. Even the Ericsson and Quincy deals, which are 2 or 3 years between 3-4 million per...sure I was annoyed when we signed those, but if the alternative is paying the same amount on the open market for Jeff Finger, or going up to the $5 million range for similar players...the Wings never make those type of mistakes. And the reality of being an older team that's always a buyer or neutral at the deadline (because we're always in the mix) means that have lower drafter picks to use, and have to trade some of them for other veteran pieces.

I full admit acknowledge that Sammy and Tootoo deals make no sense to me, but I can't get too up in arms about relatively small commitments to role players when we still have quite a bit of cap room to play with. But the main thing is that we have no idea what the CBA will look like when we emerge from this lockout. Budget-wise, however, I would have to have think that it's much preferable to have a bit a buffer built into there, as opposed to being right up against the (current) Cap. I imagine that Cap will have to go down, one way or another.