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Has your opinion of kenny changed?


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#61 kipwinger

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

Well, heck, if the baseline standard for Holland as a GM is "deals in magic", no wonder he can't live up to the hype! Unfortunately, while Suter would have been a good signing, I don't think magic could've done the trick to get him here. Maybe witchcraft.

I think what people underappreciate about good GM's like Holland is that the majority of doing a good job is all about the moves you didn't make. Since the cap was implemented, you can't find a single long-term really bad deal that has strapped this team. Some people are hot and cold on Franzen, but his cap hit of under $4 million is totally reasonable for his level of production. Even the Ericsson and Quincy deals, which are 2 or 3 years between 3-4 million per...sure I was annoyed when we signed those, but if the alternative is paying the same amount on the open market for Jeff Finger, or going up to the $5 million range for similar players...the Wings never make those type of mistakes. And the reality of being an older team that's always a buyer or neutral at the deadline (because we're always in the mix) means that have lower drafter picks to use, and have to trade some of them for other veteran pieces.

I full admit acknowledge that Sammy and Tootoo deals make no sense to me, but I can't get too up in arms about relatively small commitments to role players when we still have quite a bit of cap room to play with. But the main thing is that we have no idea what the CBA will look like when we emerge from this lockout. Budget-wise, however, I would have to have think that it's much preferable to have a bit a buffer built into there, as opposed to being right up against the (current) Cap. I imagine that Cap will have to go down, one way or another.


3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.

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#62 Carman

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.


Sure 4 million would have landed Erhoff, but for 10 years. That's ludicrous for a one dimensional defenseman that really wouldn't fit into our defense, ideally I would like a guy like Wisniewski 6 years is pretty steep, but I wouldn't have minded he's young, he's a better two way player but I don't think he's the one that I want playing along side Kronwall or Smith that can allow those two the freedom to get involved offensively. Wisniewski would have to change his game, he's productive but takes a lot of chances that the Red Wings system would not allow.

Length of contract on mediocore to slightly above average players is not how you build a good team for the long run. Both those players are good right now, but those contracts are monsters in length, and that's the bigger issue. We already have Z,Dats, Franzen, Kronwall for long term deals, what makes you think we don't need flexibility in the coming years?

I'd like to see Holland build the best team he can, we need that top pairing defenseman, but filling that need with 10 year duck tape isn't the best way to go about it imo. We still have 8 million in cap space, we still have plenty of trading assets, and we still apparently have plenty of time. Holland can very easily still turn this into gold without too much more work.

#63 evilzyme

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.


Wis was in it for the paycheck. If we would have offered 5, CBJ would've offered 6. They wanted the man, and quite frankly don't care how much they needed to pay for him. I don't think Holland has overpaid for anyone. We've seen little of Quincey, whom had to change systems within a season. We can further evaluate that situation after the next season. He also came into the system when we were on our winning streak. A lot of factors for someone to come back into to. When it comes to managing money and contracts, Holland is not the man to f with. He knows what he's doing, and quite frankly he knows a lot more than any of us could possibly imagine.

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#64 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

We traded a first rounder for Quincey(Size, speed, physical, and productive), brought in White(very underrated) for Rafalski albeit Raffy was amazing, he wasn't going to be the same player due to injuries and Ian White has been very very good for us. Quincey underperformed without a doubt, but he's only 27, on a good contract and has a track record of being a very productive scorer.

To put Quincey is perspective, as bad as he was last year he still put up the same numbers to Visnovsky, Eric Johnson, Corvo, Fowler, Bouwmeester, Zidlicky, and Hedman who are all top 4 defenseman at the very least.

Acting like Kenny didn't do anything is very disingenuous, I don't see a trade that would have made this team better. If we landed Ryan Suter, we would have the best offensive defense in the league, and it wouldn't be close, right now we are below average defensively, and above average offensively. But that's just the current state, we have cap space, and assets to use. Not to mention a pretty young core with giant ceiling's in Quincey and Brendan Smith.

Look at Matt Carle's 5.5 million for 6 year deal. He's a solid two way player no doubt, but compared to Ian White he's the same age and signed for 2.75 million a year. Half the deal, and we got someone that's just as good .03 career PPG difference, Ian White is a better skater, and more physical even though Carle has a few inches. I just don't see how that contract and player would help the Wings in the long run.

Bryan Allen? Decent player, never much of an offensive guy, but I'd been ok with the signing. But instead we got Colaiacovo who is cheaper, younger, more offensive minded, takes much less penalties. I don't see how this would make or break our team.

I fail to see these numerous options Holland had that were no brainers, unless I missed Subban, Yandle, Enstrom etc. get traded for scraps.

And to add to your point...

The Wings are currently front runners to scoop up Dan DeKeyser after this season is over (who apparently has comparable skill level to Justin Schultz, who is tearing up the AHL) and have drafted VERY well the past few years.

If you want a Matt Carle type guy, wait a year or 2 and we'll have Ryan Sproul.

Bryan Allen, wait for Xavier Oulette, who has a comparable play style with more offense as people have mentioned.

Want another big bruiser on the blueline, McKee should make his way up quickly. 4 years from now our D could be:
Kronwall-Smith
McKee-Dekeyser
Sproul-Ericsson/Quincey
Oulette

But we're all so spoiled from the moves Kenny made over the years to make/keep the Wings a powerhouse that we can't wait a couple years to be the front runner for the Cup again with the guys he drafted.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

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#65 number9

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

We've lost Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. Here is our blue line, as it currently stands:

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colaiacovo
Kindl


That's inexcusable - especially for 1) the best GM in the league, and, frankly, 2) The Detroit Effing Red Wings.

Saying, "Well, I don't really see any deals that could've been made. And looking at the list of the guys who were dealt...." isn't really a solid counterargument. Ken Holland deals in magic; his reputation (as the best GM in the league, a genius, etc.) is built largely on his ability to pull the perfect deal seemingly out of thin air and give this team exactly what it needs, often filling a hole everyone knows was there but no one reasonably believed could be filled - and all for good coin and term (usually).

That he hasn't done so re: our blue line (and he hasn't) indicates to me that he's in La La Land, not that there hasn't been a single worthwhile deal he could've made over the past 3-4 seasons (come on, man).

To be clear: I'm not tearing him down for losing the Suter sweepstakes. I'm not tearing him down at all, really. I'm just pointing out an extremely uncharacteristic lapse in, well, call it "GM smarts." Though, yeah - there is that fear in the back of my mind that it's more than a lapse....

P.S. Top GMs don't get points for trying.


Doughty - Mitchell
Scuderi - Greene
Voynov - Martinez
Drewiske

Volchenkov - Zidlicky
Tallinder - Salvador
Greene - Fayne
Larsson

We have a boat load of NHL ready forwards. Watch when the CBA gets decided and and other teams go into firesale mode. Kenny can sit back and use all the tradeable assists hes got a forward to bring in some D for cheap. Genius.

#66 Dabura

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

But we're all so spoiled from the moves Kenny made over the years to make/keep the Wings a powerhouse that we can't wait a couple years to be the front runner for the Cup again with the guys he drafted.


Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#67 Dabura

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

We have a boat load of NHL ready forwards. Watch when the CBA gets decided and and other teams go into firesale mode. Kenny can sit back and use all the tradeable assists hes got a forward to bring in some D for cheap. Genius.


He shouldn't be in this position, though. That's the point.

The Kings' blue line wasn't out-of-this-world spectacular, but it didn't need to be. The whole team was, to man, completely committed to winning. They played tremendously tight hockey. They played lights-out.

We aren't the same. We need a fairly out-of-this-world blue line to offset our scoring lines' inevitable postseason struggles.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#68 number9

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.


It's not an "angle" it's true lol. Other teams wait for many years for their entire team to rebuild...wings fans are not even patient enough to wait for 1 or 2 years while their mediocre defense gets rebuilt into a great one.

Commit to guys like Ehrhoff and Wisniewski for big money for 5+ years? or sign gappers like Colo on cheap short contracts and wait to have Sproul, McKee, Ouellete, Marchenko, DeKesyer on reasonable contracts? I'll take the latter

Wiz for over 5.5 for 6 years is bad business. Waiting a few years and having guys like Sproul for 3.5 is good business.

Not to mention wasting big money on long contracts on guys like Ehrhoff and Wiz means we won't have that to spend on our own young guys when they come up.

He shouldn't be in this position, though. That's the point.

The Kings' blue line wasn't out-of-this-world spectacular, but it didn't need to be. The whole team was, to man, completely committed to winning. They played tremendously tight hockey. They played lights-out.

We aren't the same. We need a fairly out-of-this-world blue line to offset our scoring lines' inevitable postseason struggles.


So the Kings don't need a good blue line because "theyre comitted to winning"....what?

Quick played lights out.

5 bad post season games and now we suck? gotcha

#69 kipwinger

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

Sure 4 million would have landed Erhoff, but for 10 years. That's ludicrous for a one dimensional defenseman that really wouldn't fit into our defense, ideally I would like a guy like Wisniewski 6 years is pretty steep, but I wouldn't have minded he's young, he's a better two way player but I don't think he's the one that I want playing along side Kronwall or Smith that can allow those two the freedom to get involved offensively. Wisniewski would have to change his game, he's productive but takes a lot of chances that the Red Wings system would not allow.

Length of contract on mediocore to slightly above average players is not how you build a good team for the long run. Both those players are good right now, but those contracts are monsters in length, and that's the bigger issue. We already have Z,Dats, Franzen, Kronwall for long term deals, what makes you think we don't need flexibility in the coming years?

I'd like to see Holland build the best team he can, we need that top pairing defenseman, but filling that need with 10 year duck tape isn't the best way to go about it imo. We still have 8 million in cap space, we still have plenty of trading assets, and we still apparently have plenty of time. Holland can very easily still turn this into gold without too much more work.


Six years is not too long for a young guy, as you mentioned. Especially one that is aggressive, is awesome on the power play, has a laser for a shot, and has put up 50 pts. in the past. I'd have spend on Wiz, rather than give Ericsson the raise he didn't deserve at the time.

As for Erhoff, I seriously doubt he plays into his 40's. When he retires, his contract comes off the books. No big deal. Even if he doesn't, he's a tradeable asset later on, teams put a premium on puck moving defensemen at the deadline when they're trying to make a playoff run and need help on the blue line.

But yes, it was a long contract.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#70 The Axe

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

3 to 4 million would have gotten us Erhoff, 5 would have gotten Wisniewski. Both of those guys are better than anyone on our defense not named Kronwall. I get irritated when I see people suggest that it's no good to overpay. I'd personally rather see Holland overpay for talented players than overpay for average ones.


This is my point. Im fine with not overspending on A+ talent as long as the alternative isnt overspending on D- talent. Saying Parise is too expensive at 9 mil per and then signing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Quincey for 9 mil per is just STUPID.

#71 number9

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

This is my point. Im fine with not overspending on A+ talent as long as the alternative isnt overspending on D- talent. Saying Parise is too expensive at 9 mil per and then signing Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Quincey for 9 mil per is just STUPID.


Parise cant play 3 roster spots

#72 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

Ah, yes, the "spoiled fans" angle.

We have good talent in the pipeline. If that's the reason Holland has allowed our D corps to fall into mediocrity, well, that's all kinds of wack.

Our D may surprise you if a season ever starts. And with younger forwards added into the mix that have younger legs to backcheck it'll help a lot with positioning in the defensive zone.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#73 The Axe

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

Parise cant play 3 roster spots


Parise, Kindl, and Tatar can.

#74 number9

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

Parise, Kindl, and Tatar can.


As of right now Kindl can't play 1 roster spot, and who knows about Tatar

#75 evilzyme

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

Tatar has been lighting up the AHL with Nyquist, but it still holds the same point. I'd rather go with the latter in that situation and take the 3 players over parise that 9mil. It's just fundamentals, we didn't sign them long-term but it gives us time to allow our minors to develop properly. Rushing a player into a league that he can't compete in, is worst for the player. They won't instill the confidence they would've if they were given more time in the minors. We talk about maturity and at the same time we got one of our leaders giving out his ID for an underage to go drink at the bars (i know how it works, but it just looks bad when you're a star prospect and leader for the team. just don't get caught) and the one using it getting a second alcohol infraction, this one being a DWI @ .3. So no, as much as I wanted parise to come to us, I don't want to give him the world and everything he wants. It should be hand in hand when dealing with a franchise. They supply you with a contract and money, and you supply them with the product. Sometimes, even the most wanted product isn't worth what it cost in the end. Not saying that Parise isn't worth money, or isn't a great player, but he certainly isn't a player that you throw 9mil/yr at.

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
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'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#76 Carman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

I'm on the other side of the point on the Parise discussion, I'd have gladly spent 9 mill + on Suter and Parise. Those are two players that have proven year in year out to be elite at their position without any off the ice distractions.
Am I missing something or did Holland come out and say they weren't interested in either? Because from what I recall we were right in there among the last few teams that had a shot at both. So where does this whole Holland chose "Sammy+tootooo+bertuzzi" over "Parise" come from? Imagination?

#77 number9

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

I'm on the other side of the point on the Parise discussion, I'd have gladly spent 9 mill + on Suter and Parise. Those are two players that have proven year in year out to be elite at their position without any off the ice distractions.
Am I missing something or did Holland come out and say they weren't interested in either? Because from what I recall we were right in there among the last few teams that had a shot at both. So where does this whole Holland chose "Sammy+tootooo+bertuzzi" over "Parise" come from? Imagination?


He def wanted them. At that price though I'm glad he lost the sweepstakes.

#78 evilzyme

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

I'm on the other side of the point on the Parise discussion, I'd have gladly spent 9 mill + on Suter and Parise. Those are two players that have proven year in year out to be elite at their position without any off the ice distractions.
Am I missing something or did Holland come out and say they weren't interested in either? Because from what I recall we were right in there among the last few teams that had a shot at both. So where does this whole Holland chose "Sammy+tootooo+bertuzzi" over "Parise" come from? Imagination?


Holland came out and said at the end, atleast from what I remember, that he went after Suter strictly near the end. Parise had become out of range for money, and he dropped the interest in grabbing him. He wasn't willing to spend that much money, nor tie the hands of the franchise for just two players. While they are great players, this is where GM's become good and better. There are way too many GM's nowadays that would throw the checkbook out the window for the talent, just in hopes that it improves their team regardless if it ties the hands of their franchise. The great GM's like Holland won't let this happen, and have enough knowledge to know what it causes. Do you want one championship, or the shot at 8 over the course of 8 years? I'll take the continued success everyday of the week, and twice on sunday. Too many GM's are willing to put everything forth for one championship, then they go on a firesale when players want increased salaries. Once that happens, everyone starts complaining about player salaries and the inflation. Listen, you don't have to sign the contract, you can develop a team through the draft and insert pieces where needed.

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
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'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#79 The Axe

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

Holland came out and said at the end, atleast from what I remember, that he went after Suter strictly near the end. Parise had become out of range for money, and he dropped the interest in grabbing him. He wasn't willing to spend that much money, nor tie the hands of the franchise for just two players. While they are great players, this is where GM's become good and better. There are way too many GM's nowadays that would throw the checkbook out the window for the talent, just in hopes that it improves their team regardless if it ties the hands of their franchise. The great GM's like Holland won't let this happen, and have enough knowledge to know what it causes. Do you want one championship, or the shot at 8 over the course of 8 years? I'll take the continued success everyday of the week, and twice on sunday. Too many GM's are willing to put everything forth for one championship, then they go on a firesale when players want increased salaries. Once that happens, everyone starts complaining about player salaries and the inflation. Listen, you don't have to sign the contract, you can develop a team through the draft and insert pieces where needed.


We got 14 mil per invested in Dats and Hank. Why not 18 mil per in 2 younger elite guys? Tying up Hank, Flip, Dats, Kronwall, Suter, and Parise for 40 mil per would be what I would do. Fill in the other 17 spots with 1.5 mil per guys and call it a team.

#80 number9

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:11 PM

We got 14 mil per invested in Dats and Hank. Why not 18 mil per in 2 younger elite guys? Tying up Hank, Flip, Dats, Kronwall, Suter, and Parise for 40 mil per would be what I would do. Fill in the other 17 spots with 1.5 mil per guys and call it a team.


yeah a few key injuries and you're the worst team in the league





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