161 replies to this topic

[The Axe]

yeah a few key injuries and you're the worst team in the league

Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year? Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001? We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury. Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage.

[number9]

Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year? Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001? We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury. Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage.

Don't even know how to respond to this...

"Kind of like when Lids and Helm went down last year?" No

"Or Yzerman and Shanahan in 2001?" No

"We got smoked by teams we can easily beat due to injury." No

"Did we fail to keep signing good players and pushing for cups because of potential injuries? Nope. Loaded up in 2002. This year, we are loading up on garbage." 2002 and 2012 are utterly incomparable, you must be joking?

[Dabura]

Our blue line is ultra-mediocre, and it shouldn't be. And, if we're going to seriously contend for the Cup, it can't be. But everyone seems A-OK with it. Certainly Holland does. All of which makes me feel like I've slipped into an alternate reality or something.

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colaiacovo
Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

Again, though, the thing that really gets me is, It should never have come to this! We shouldn't be pinning our hopes on a 2-3-years-away prospect influx (since when is it Holland's style to put any sort of pressure on our prospects, let alone expect them to restore a mediocritized blue line to Lidstrom-era-greatness?) We shouldn't be looking at other teams' blue lines and saying, "Well, they're not all that amazing. So we're fine." What happened to being the class of the West? Being ruthlessly over-prepared? Being altogether Awesome?

Holland has been - and may very well still be - in cruise control re: our D. And it sucks.

Either that or he has some impossibly long-con-ish plan that he's been working for the last several years which'll make everything better. (I'm not holding my breath.)

[VM1138]

Agreed. I wouldn't say we stocked up on "garbage" but Holland did not address the weaknesses of the team. And that defense scares me. We need to remember that there wasn't much to choose from, Holland made his pushes and got outbid. As frustrating as that is, it happens sometimes. There aren't nearly as many elite players anymore, at least not with contracts expiring. The cap and lifetime contracts really eliminated the possibilities of trades and free agency.

[number9]

Our blue line is ultra-mediocre, and it shouldn't be. And, if we're going to seriously contend for the Cup, it can't be. But everyone seems A-OK with it. Certainly Holland does. All of which makes me feel like I've slipped into an alternate reality or something.

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colaiacovo
Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

Again, though, the thing that really gets me is, It should never have come to this! We shouldn't be pinning our hopes on a 2-3-years-away prospect influx (since when is it Holland's style to put any sort of pressure on our prospects, let alone expect them to restore a mediocritized blue line to Lidstrom-era-greatness?) We shouldn't be looking at other teams' blue lines and saying, "Well, they're not all that amazing. So we're fine." What happened to being the class of the West? Being ruthlessly over-prepared? Being altogether Awesome?

Holland has been - and may very well still be - in cruise control re: our D. And it sucks.

Either that or he has some impossibly long-con-ish plan that he's been working for the last several years which'll make everything better. (I'm not holding my breath.)

Alright so let's trade Flips and Nyquist for Subban or Yandle

Kronwall - Subban/Yandle
Quincey - White
Smith - Ericsson
Colo

^ Looks better...

Franzen - Datsyuk - Sammy
Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Brunner
Cleary - Helm - Eaves
Miller - Abby - Tootoo

^ depends on how much you like that though

[Z Winged Dangler]

Alright so let's trade Flips and Nyquist for Subban or Yandle

Kronwall - Subban/Yandle
Quincey - White
Smith - Ericsson
Colo

^ Looks better...

Franzen - Datsyuk - Sammy
Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Brunner
Cleary - Helm - Eaves
Miller - Abby - Tootoo

^ depends on how much you like that though

You can add in Sheahan as the 13th forwards for games in Canada once he gets deported for being "super drunk" and driving

On a serious note, I'm in the group of people that is not worried about our D. Ericsson is becoming the shutdown Dman that Stuart used to be and Smith is a future star. Don't care what anyone else thinks....kid is gonna win the Calder when hockey starts next season. We have more young forwards to keep the energy up and some of the best 2-way forwards in the NHL. Coliacovo is a solid addiiton especially if he holds up the 3rd pairing. I was actually very excited to see the Wings play this year. If they stay healthy, not losing guys like Helm and Fil for stretches and keep some line chemistry, the boys could go deep in the playoffs and contend.

[rick zombo]

You can add in Sheahan as the 13th forwards for games in Canada once he gets deported for being "super drunk" and driving

On a serious note, I'm in the group of people that is not worried about our D. Ericsson is becoming the shutdown Dman that Stuart used to be and Smith is a future star. Don't care what anyone else thinks....kid is gonna win the Calder when hockey starts next season. We have more young forwards to keep the energy up and some of the best 2-way forwards in the NHL. Coliacovo is a solid addiiton especially if he holds up the 3rd pairing. I was actually very excited to see the Wings play this year. If they stay healthy, not losing guys like Helm and Fil for stretches and keep some line chemistry, the boys could go deep in the playoffs and contend.

Justin Schultz. Currently leading the ahl in scoring for a rookie D-man. Pretty impressive.

[evilzyme]

The Kings steamrolled all comers en route to the Cup. That they were able to do this with a less-than-spectacular D corps indicates they had (and have) other things going for them. And they did (do). They have the best goalie in the league. They're young, tenacious. Their forecheck is nuts. They known how to crash and bang and put the puck in the net. And they know a thing or two about defense.

We have skill. With the puck. When we have the puck. And that's not getting it done in the postseason. This has been an issue for some time now, but Holland refuses to full-on address it, never mind rectify it. (Meanwhile, Datsyuk and Zetterberg get older, and Franzen becomes increasingly ADD.) Our scoring lines simply cannot get it done in the clutch against a big, mean, mobile opposing D that knows how to shut them down and exists to do so (i.e. has their number). Our soft, smallish Euro playmakers can pass the puck like no one's business and swarm around the perimeter and shoot from the circle-tops. They do these things very well, especially when their season hangs in the balance. But the whole outscoring the opponent thing? Not so much.

So it's on our defenders to lead us to Glory.

Which is why I facepalm @:

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colaiacovo
Kindl

Not. gonna. cut it.

The Kings weren't steamrolling everything all the way to the cup. They certainly struggled in the regular season and had to change up their system to be successful. They also rode a VERY hot goalie that could change a game all by himself. Not every team has a big, mobile, destructive defense so we can't pretend that's all that exist in the NHL nowadays. Are teams getting bigger and are players harder to play against? Absolutely, but let's not make it out to seem like all 29 teams are going to be wiping us up and down the floor with their giant defense. Now, as much as I don't like our defense, I think many are underestimating what we have in our hand. We got rid of Hudler and Emmerton and replaced them with Sammy, Brunner, and Tootoo. I like this. We took someone whom can produce, but is horrible at backchecking and has no size. We added someone whom loves to miss the net, but can actually backcheck and will be in position more than what Hudler was ever capable of. Brunner brings more speed to the team, and in todays NHL speed can and will kill. Emmerton didn't do s*** last season, and if it wasn't for losing him to waivers we probably would've thrown him back into the system in Grand Rapids. Tootoo brings much needed size, with added production over Emmerton. Brunner is going to be the risk, but he's already working with Zetterberg. They're destroying it over there, and getting much needed confidence. This will translate back in America (their confidence and chemistry, brunner will still have to convert over to smaller ice). As much as our defense goes, yes we lost Lidstrom but we didn't lose Lidstrom in his prime or in 2008/9. We lost a 2012 Lidstrom. As much as it hurts to say, you could see his game starting to decline and mistakes were being made, someone unheard of and out of character for the non-human defensemen and captain. We added Carlo, to take over for Kindl. Ericsson has been improving, regardless of how much we hate him or not, each and every season. He will have more roles added to him now with the diminished core. To the people to say he is worthless and sucks, look at how much our PK hurt when he was gone. Even Mike Babcock himself made the notion on how much he missed his presence. It's the small things gents, and they add up. We may not have the big names, or the superstars filling our lineups but all of this stuff tweaks an already solid lineup. Players will need to step up, and they will make mistakes, but we're not in that big of a hole as everyone wants to make it out to be.

[number9]

comparing 1-6 D-spots

#1 Kronwall < Lidstrom
#2 White = White
#3 Quincey < Kronwall
#4 Smith > Stuart
#5 Ericsson = Ericsson
#6 Colaiacovo > Kindl

#1 and #3 spots got worse while the #4 and #6 spots got better. #1 and #3 are more important so the D did take a hit, but it's not all bad. Talent is just more evenly distributed now.

[F.Michael]

comparing 1-6 D-spots

#1 Kronwall < Lidstrom
#2 White = White
#3 Quincey < Kronwall
#4 Smith > Stuart
#5 Ericsson = Ericsson
#6 Colaiacovo > Kindl

#1 and #3 spots got worse while the #4 and #6 spots got better. #1 and #3 are more important so the D did take a hit, but it's not all bad. Talent is just more evenly distributed now.

Not so sure if I'd rank Smith over Stewie...That said with Stewie gone - Smith will most likely see a fair amount of action if/when the league gets back to playing.

[number9]

Not so sure if I'd rank Smith over Stewie...That said with Stewie gone - Smith will most likely see a fair amount of action if/when the league gets back to playing.

Going off the notion that Ericsson basically outplayed Stuart at the end of the season (he's getting old). And I think Smith has more upside than Ericsson.

[F.Michael]

Going off the notion that Ericsson basically outplayed Stuart at the end of the season (he's getting old). And I think Smith has more upside than Ericsson.

My memory of last season isn't the greatest by any means - however I don't recall Ericsson outplaying Stuart as much as Stuart was starting to show some wear & tear.

As for upside - I'll agree Smith has the potential to be a much better all around Dman than Ericsson - however I'll reserve that judgement until he has a few dozen NHL games under his belt.

Edited by F.Michael, 29 November 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[kipwinger]

Going off the notion that Ericsson basically outplayed Stuart at the end of the season (he's getting old). And I think Smith has more upside than Ericsson.

I definitely agree that our defense isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is, however, I am pretty concerned about the lack of a shutdown #1 guy to match against top flight forwards, the lack of any proven defensive minded defensemen (Ericsson will need to keep doing what he did at the end of last season for me to be convinced he's ready to do this night in and night out), and the lack of size in the d-core. With our lineup, teams with size at forward scare the hell out of me.

Smith might turn out to be a true star in the league, but I'm certainly not convinced it will be in the defensive zone, and I doubt his ability to play against big bodied guys. Same with Kronwall, Quincey, White, and Colaiacovo. All of them can score, but none are really solid defesively, and they're fairly small to boot. A lot is riding on Ericsson and Kind's development. That's why I wanted Allen so badly, which you and I agree on.

[Carman]

Justin Schultz. Currently leading the ahl in scoring for a rookie D-man. Pretty impressive.

Would be nice to be out there every shift with Hall, Eberle, and RNH =p

Shultz is damn good no doubt, but they are only one year apart Shultz had a .93 PPG in college, while Smith had a .91(while being younger in college). Add to the different style that they play, Smith is a much more rugged and physical defenseman, while Shultz is more of a cerebral puck mover. I'm not saying Smith is better, but we should definitely be excited here in Detroit for him, he's excelled at each and every level and is one of the best defenseman prospects outside the NHL.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Justin Schultz. Currently leading the ahl in scoring for a rookie D-man. Pretty impressive.

I think they'll be pretty close. I forgot he's gonna be a rookie though, good pick up. why the hell don't these millionaires just start playing already?!?!

[The Axe]

Guys, lets be honest. We are going to get TORCHED without Lidstrom. He was a special talent that held things together. He got hurt last year and the team went from 1st to 5th in 20 games. Id the season was 100 games long, we would have missed the playoffs. Not signing any REAL TALENT this off season is going to cripple us. A full year of lockout might be the only saving grace, realistically.

[evilzyme]

Guys, lets be honest. We are going to get TORCHED without Lidstrom. He was a special talent that held things together. He got hurt last year and the team went from 1st to 5th in 20 games. Id the season was 100 games long, we would have missed the playoffs. Not signing any REAL TALENT this off season is going to cripple us. A full year of lockout might be the only saving grace, realistically.

Comparing midseason injuries to off-season roster changes is an absolute joke. Yes, we had a downward spiral last season when Nicky got hurt but that's expected when your #1 D man goes down mid season... whom are you going to replace him with? The magical lockdown defensemen you've been hiding in your closet all season? Off-season roster changes happen and players get the time to adjust to systems during training camp. Apples to oranges my friend.

[Motown4013]

Holland focused on rounding our team out with scrubs (quincey, bertuzzi, gustavsson, tootoo, and sammuelsson) for the same amount (11 mil per) that he could have paid Suter (9 mil per) and 4 prospects (.5 mil each). I would have ponied up for Suter and Parise. 9-10 mil per season each, 10 year deals. Dats and Z dont like it? Well, play good the next couple of years and we give those guys some golden parachutes too. Holland pussed out. We will feel it if the nhl ever gets going again.

I think you just love to read your own posts. Do you actually believe this arguement?
Pretty sure we made a huge pitch for Suter and at the end of the day, he chose to play with his BFF. Just for the record, the 11 million dollars we spent was spend on depth...no one on that list is a scrub...Do I LOVE Sammy...Um, NO....but he can assist with some production. Q had a crap year but 2 years ago everyone bitched that we traded him when he had huge points....Everyone complained that we needed to get tougher...BAM, TooToo is signed and you ***** about that. Holland didnt puss out so when the cap goes down, we will be laughin' and thinking Kenny is a genius.

PS As for youth coming in, hows that Emmerton situation working out? Just sayin'....n

Edited by Motown4013, 30 November 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[The Axe]

I think you just love to read your own posts. Do you actually believe this arguement?
Pretty sure we made a huge pitch for Suter and at the end of the day, he chose to play with his BFF. Just for the record, the 11 million dollars we spent was spend on depth...no one on that list is a scrub...Do I LOVE Sammy...Um, NO....but he can assist with some production. Q had a crap year but 2 years ago everyone bitched that we traded him when he had huge points....Everyone complained that we needed to get tougher...BAM, TooToo is signed and you ***** about that. Holland didnt puss out so when the cap goes down, we will be laughin' and thinking Kenny is a genius.

PS As for youth coming in, hows that Emmerton situation working out? Just sayin'....n

I like Emmerton! 71 games last year. Everyone is going to be surprised by him eventually. He's the new Tim Taylor/Craig Johnson. The guy who goes unseen, but does his job and is just there.

[Motown4013]

I like Emmerton! 71 games last year. Everyone is going to be surprised by him eventually. He's the new Tim Taylor/Craig Johnson. The guy who goes unseen, but does his job and is just there.

Lol....you say you like Emmerton but Tootoo is a scrub? We will see, five games in when Tootoo absolutely demolishes someone like Thornton or Perry when they go after Datsyuk. No one....I mean NO ONE thinks Emmerton is a more valuable piece on this team that Tootoo. His mother doesn't even think that. You can hate 22 all you want be he adds a dimension to this team that we havent had since Downey left.
Emmerton love but Bert, Sammy Tootoo, Monster and Q are all scrubs. Ok friend!