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Poll: New CBA

Regardless of who is at fault, do you think they will lock us out when the new CBA expires if there is a significnt revenue decline when they unlock the doors?

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#41 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

The big difference between the NHL and these other sports leagues is the vile hatred they have for each other.


No, the difference is the current leader of the NHL. Ever since he didn't get his way with his ill-conceived division realignment scheme (one that the NHLPA was totally in their right to refuse, as it should have been part of the overall negotiations in this round of talks) he's demonstrated an "I'll show them" type of mentality. He has to face the reality that he has met his negotiating match, bite the bullet, do his job properly and stop acting like the petulant man-child persona he showed the last time he was at the podium.

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#42 chances14

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

No, the difference is the current leader of the NHL. Ever since he didn't get his way with his ill-conceived division realignment scheme (one that the NHLPA was totally in their right to refuse, as it should have been part of the overall negotiations in this round of talks) he's demonstrated an "I'll show them" type of mentality. He has to face the reality that he has met his negotiating match, bite the bullet, do his job properly and stop acting like the petulant man-child persona he showed the last time he was at the podium.


this "i'll show them mentality" has gone all the way back to 1992 when goodenow directed the players to go on strike on the eve of the stanley cup finals. believe it or not, the players actually went on strike before the owners locked them out.

i suggest everyone go back and look at the relationship between the pa and the league starting in the 80's and you will see why we are at this point today. no other sports league in history has as dysfunctional a relationship than the nhl and nhlpa.

#43 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:46 PM

Yes, Uncle Gary took away their ability to rightfully strike. He should be very proud.
John Ziegler: lost his job
Gil Stein: lost his way
Gary Bettman: pending.
That job interview must have been a doozy. The League even changed the "job title".

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#44 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

Bettman is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey , we should all do whatever we can to get him out of the game and you choose to focus on the guy fighting him.
Are you contrarian and just like to argue or are you 1 of those many paid mercenaries hired by Bettman and/or the NHL for internet PR scouring the web for sites talking about hockey and propagating their wickedness?


I really don't get it. Just because some of us see more of a bigger picture as a whole..more problem then just Bettman , we are just here to argue, we are idiots....we are Buttman dur hur lovers....and we wish bad things to happen to hockey and the players. I'm not sure how me and several others can say it any clearer then we already have. Both sides suck...we hate Bettman....we hate Fehr....We hate the fact that we can't watch our "beloveded" (Ernest T. Bass) Wings.
msg-10491-1258682020.jpg


I LIVE IN TEXAS SO I DON'T DESERVE HOCKEY

#45 Johnz96

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

this "i'll show them mentality" has gone all the way back to 1992 when goodenow directed the players to go on strike on the eve of the stanley cup finals. believe it or not, the players actually went on strike before the owners locked them out.

i suggest everyone go back and look at the relationship between the pa and the league starting in the 80's and you will see why we are at this point today. no other sports league in history has as dysfunctional a relationship than the nhl and nhlpa.

Until Bettman took over they have never lost a game due to labor dispute and thew relationship between players and owners was never any more dysfuncyional than any other sports league.
Since he took over the NHL has lost more games due to labor disputes than all other major sports league combined even before Fehr ever entered the picture.

#46 chances14

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

Until Bettman took over they have never lost a game due to labor dispute and thew relationship between players and owners was never any more dysfuncyional than any other sports league.
Since he took over the NHL has lost more games due to labor disputes than all other major sports league combined even before Fehr ever entered the picture.


until bob goodenow took over in 1992, there was never a labor stoppage of any kind in the nhl.

so who actually fired the first shot in this war?

Edited by chances14, 12 December 2012 - 02:55 PM.


#47 Johnz96

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

until bob goodenow took over in 1992, there was never a labor stoppage of any kind in the nhl.

so who actually fired the first shot in this war?

The owners were exploiting the players in 92

#48 RedWingsDad

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

Until Bettman took over they have never lost a game due to labor dispute and thew relationship between players and owners was never any more dysfuncyional than any other sports league.
Since he took over the NHL has lost more games due to labor disputes than all other major sports league combined even before Fehr ever entered the picture.


Word to the wise, Bettman is an employee of the collective owners. He does not make unilateral decisions. It seems to be a secret around here, so don't tell anyone it was me who told you.... kthx
Tim Thomas - Patriot and generally awesome human being.
 
Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

#49 chances14

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

The owners were exploiting the players in 92


i would probably agree with that. though admittedly i don't know much about the details of the cba's in the 80's. i just know that the pa's own leader was exploiting his members.

but it gets back to the point i've been making in this thread. this dysfunction between the pa and nhl that has caused 3 lockouts goes back to before bettman was even commissioner and is why i believe that firing bettman alone is not going to prevent another lockout in the future.

#50 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

From New York Times:

Bettman's mission is simple: Put a stop to labor unrest; sell the product in television's mainstream marketplace; change the violent image of the game; curb salary inflation; force enlightened self-interest on reluctant, old-fashioned owners; expand contacts with European developmental leagues and markets; settle the divisive issue of possible Olympic involvement, and help launch several new expansion teams.


My ribs are still aching after reading the first one.

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#51 chances14

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

From New York Times:



My ribs are still aching after reading the first one.


No doubt Bettman has been a failure. But i think it just shows that these owners are just as much fault considering that they haven't gotten rid of him yet

#52 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:08 AM

No doubt Bettman has been a failure. But i think it just shows that these owners are just as much fault considering that they haven't gotten rid of him yet


Uncle Gary hasn't been a total failure. However, he has failed miserably in the most important area of being the head of any business: the way he treats his employees is deplorable.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#53 Johnz96

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:27 PM

Uncle Gary hasn't been a total failure. However, he has failed miserably in the most important area of being the head of any business: the way he treats his employees is deplorable.

Even worse, the way he treats his customers is also deplorable

Edited by Johnz96, 13 December 2012 - 12:27 PM.


#54 chances14

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:03 PM

One nhl governor submitted a version of his own CBA to Espn. No surprise it's essentially the compromise that we all expect should happen. The part of the article that pertains to the subject of this thread

http://espn.go.com/b...-cba-right-here

A veteran agent agreed that this is the kind of compromise on both sides that is needed for a deal, although he remained skeptical that hard-line owners would go for it.

“That type of movement is needed but with Jacobs in charge, it is doubtful,” he said, referring to the chairman of the board of governors, Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs.


Notice that he said Jacobs, not Bettman.

#55 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:52 AM

One nhl governor submitted a version of his own CBA to Espn. No surprise it's essentially the compromise that we all expect should happen. The part of the article that pertains to the subject of this thread

http://espn.go.com/b...-cba-right-here

Notice that he said Jacobs, not Bettman.

It sounds like Jacobs has been a hugely negative influence on these CBA negotiations.

But he is only one owner out of 30. You have to wonder how one owner could possibly have such a disproportionate amount of influence compared to the others and how he got that power. The simple answer is Bettman.

“He’s in charge,” said Jonathon Gatehouse, whose book

“The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever,”



the first in-depth biography of Bettman, was recently published. “It has been a gradual process over 20 years and has accelerated since his victory in the last lockout.”



“In the old days, basically the owners ran the league and almost ran it into the ground,” Snider

said last December



. “Now it’s Bettman’s league. He’s a great commissioner. Basically he’s the force behind everything we do.”



Richard Stursberg, the former head of CBC English-language television, recounted in his recently published memoir the negotiations in 2006 and 2007 for the network to renew its N.H.L. contract. He wrote of Bettman “cheerfully” scuttling deals every time Stursberg thought one was close.


http://www.nytimes.c...orcer.html?_r=0

There are many guilty parties here, but top of my list is the commissioner. I guess I don't understand the reluctance to heap blame on the guy who's job it is to ultimately run the league.

Of course it's a tough job. He's got to deal with 30 owners, some of whom sure seem like idiots. And Fehr is no picnic either, but that's the job. It's largely his economic model for the league that has created this massive disparity between teams. And it's largely his strategy to try and remedy it by taking more money from the players, which doesn't address the real problem. It's his choice to have Jeremy Jacobs so deeply involved in these negotiations. Jacobs is as much Bettman's right hand man in this as Daly.

#56 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:06 AM

The owners were exploiting the players in 92


Exploiting?!?! Please. That's a stretch.

It's not as if every single hockey player in the NHL wasn't making far more than the average Joe. I have a very difficult time feeling much sympathy for either the players or the owners.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#57 Johnz96

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

For all those saying Fehr is as responsible as Bettman. That's just not fair.
Fehr first worked for the MLBPA as a lawyer on one specific case in 1975, then was hired as general counsel (on par with Bob Batterman of the NHL) in 1977. He didn't start working as Director of the MLBPA until 1983, officially gaining the title in 1985. So technically any work stoppages that happened prior to his taking over the PA in 1983 are not on his shoulders, but we'll go ahead and look at them anyway...

1980 MLB Strike, lasted 8 days in March, 0 games lost. 1981 MLB Strike, June 12 to July 31, 0 games lost. 1985 MLB Strike, lasted 2 days August 6-7, 0 games lost. 1990 MLB lockout, lasted 32 days in spring, 0 games lost. 1994 MLB Player Strike, lasted 232 days from August 12 to April 2, 931 to 948 games lost plus the entire offseason. From 1995 until his retirement in 2009, the MLB did not have a single additional work stoppage. Until now, as head of the NHLPA he is caught in the 2012-13 NHL Lockout.

Bettman began working as NHL commissioner in 1993. His tenure includes the 1994 NHL Lockout, which lasted 3 months from October 1 to January 11, 468 games lost. In addition, the infamous 2004 NHL Lockout, which lasted 10 months from September 16 to July 13, 1230 games lost plus the entire offseason. Plus the current 2012-13 NHL Lockout, which as of the most recent round of cancelled games puts it at 625 games lost.

So counting this year's NHL Lockout in which both men are involved, we have Fehr with 6 work stoppages and Bettman with 3. So yes, if you just look at it like that, it does seem to paint Fehr as the villain here. However, ignoring this year's lockout as it affects both Fehr and Bettman, of Fehr's 5 MLB work stoppages, only 1 resulted in lost games, whereas both of Bettman's previous NHL work stoppages resulted in lost games. How about total games lost due to work stoppages? Fehr lost 931-948 games due to the 1994 MLB Players strike, while Bettman lost 1698 games during his first two lockouts. What's more, if you consider it in perspective, the MLB plays almost twice as many games a year, 162 games vs the NHL's 82 games. So proportionally, Bettman has caused over 3x as many lost games as Fehr has.

So who has presided over more work stoppages? Fehr, 6 (although only in charge for 4 of those) to 3. But who has caused more games to be lost? Bettman, 3x as many as Fehr has. Who has been involved in more work stoppages that were able to be resolved before any real games were lost? Fehr, 4 of his work stoppages (2 in which he was in charge) were able to be resolved without losing any games, whereas Bettman is now 0 for 3 in saving games...

#58 Dabura

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:06 AM

Y'know, I think everything that needs to be said can be said in two words:

Proskauer-Rose.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#59 Johnz96

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:56 AM

Y'know, I think everything that needs to be said can be said in two words:

Proskauer-Rose.


It's not just them they are involved with all the other leagues. Since Bettman became commissioner of the NHL, they have lost almost twice as many games to labour disputes than all the other leaguues combined.
NFL - 0
NBA - 504
MLB - 938
Total - 1442
NHL - 2323 and counting
It's one word and it's a bad one(please excuse the profanity)
Bettman

It sounds like Jacobs has been a hugely negative influence on these CBA negotiations.

But he is only one owner out of 30. You have to wonder how one owner could possibly have such a disproportionate amount of influence compared to the others and how he got that power. The simple answer is Bettman.



http://www.nytimes.c...orcer.html?_r=0

There are many guilty parties here, but top of my list is the commissioner. I guess I don't understand the reluctance to heap blame on the guy who's job it is to ultimately run the league.

Of course it's a tough job. He's got to deal with 30 owners, some of whom sure seem like idiots. And Fehr is no picnic either, but that's the job. It's largely his economic model for the league that has created this massive disparity between teams. And it's largely his strategy to try and remedy it by taking more money from the players, which doesn't address the real problem. It's his choice to have Jeremy Jacobs so deeply involved in these negotiations. Jacobs is as much Bettman's right hand man in this as Daly.


You forgot to mention his refusal to negotiate. Making demands is not negotiating

Edited by Johnz96, 22 December 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#60 Playmaker

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:06 AM

I kind of operate on the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"...I bought into the Bettman bull**** in '04, that if we only had that hard salary cap, it would fix everything, the league would make a fortune, the owners would prosper, attendance and tv ratings would be up, etc. For our troubles of losing an entire season and getting payroll slashed, Wings fans got a couple of Joe Bucks and an increase in ticket prices and an even lousier schedule.

Well, after losing an entire season, the players caved in and the league got exactly what it wanted. All indications are that the league is making money, the players are getting paid and there's plenty of money to go around. But 7 years later, we're supposed to believe that the owners are suffering and losing money and if only we had a new CBA that restricted the length of player contracts and reduced revenue sharing for the players, all would be well.

As for not blaming Bettman, a true leader is supposed to bring people together and have a united front. The biggest problem is he isn't able to get the owners to agree on anything and the NHL owners, seemingly more than any other league, are out for themselves, not for the the betterment of the league.

Sorry, just not going to get fooled again by more of the league propoganda.





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