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Poll: New CBA

Regardless of who is at fault, do you think they will lock us out when the new CBA expires if there is a significnt revenue decline when they unlock the doors?

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#61 Playmaker

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

Exploiting?!?! Please. That's a stretch.

It's not as if every single hockey player in the NHL wasn't making far more than the average Joe. I have a very difficult time feeling much sympathy for either the players or the owners.


How long does the average NHL career last? Most players aren't superstars making 7 figure salaries for 15 years or more. The vast majority play only a few years. Not to mention, the players put themselves at risk every time they step on the ice. Look at Patrick Eaves, will he ever be "normal" again and live without pain? Keith Primeau probably will never live without the effects of his repeated concussions. Same for the Lindros brothers. Most players will likely have some sort of lasting physical or mental ailment as a result of playing in the NHL. What risk do the owners put themselves at? Are their careers over at 25?

#62 Dabura

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

Don't get me wrong - when non-hockey fans ask me who's really at fault in all of this, I say the owners and Bettman. That's the immediate truth. But I do think this lockout seems to part of a "bigger picture" dealy, what with Proskauer-Rose having its grubby fingers in all four league pies, and the similarities in the "lockout scripts," and Bettman being a P-R alumnus, and Bob Batterman slowly replacing Daly as Bettman's BFF, etc.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#63 The Axe

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

I am reaching my limit. Its not fun anymore. Too much business now and not enough sport.

#64 chances14

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

For all those saying Fehr is as responsible as Bettman. That's just not fair.
Fehr first worked for the MLBPA as a lawyer on one specific case in 1975, then was hired as general counsel (on par with Bob Batterman of the NHL) in 1977. He didn't start working as Director of the MLBPA until 1983, officially gaining the title in 1985. So technically any work stoppages that happened prior to his taking over the PA in 1983 are not on his shoulders, but we'll go ahead and look at them anyway...

1980 MLB Strike, lasted 8 days in March, 0 games lost. 1981 MLB Strike, June 12 to July 31, 0 games lost. 1985 MLB Strike, lasted 2 days August 6-7, 0 games lost. 1990 MLB lockout, lasted 32 days in spring, 0 games lost. 1994 MLB Player Strike, lasted 232 days from August 12 to April 2, 931 to 948 games lost plus the entire offseason. From 1995 until his retirement in 2009, the MLB did not have a single additional work stoppage. Until now, as head of the NHLPA he is caught in the 2012-13 NHL Lockout.

Bettman began working as NHL commissioner in 1993. His tenure includes the 1994 NHL Lockout, which lasted 3 months from October 1 to January 11, 468 games lost. In addition, the infamous 2004 NHL Lockout, which lasted 10 months from September 16 to July 13, 1230 games lost plus the entire offseason. Plus the current 2012-13 NHL Lockout, which as of the most recent round of cancelled games puts it at 625 games lost.

So counting this year's NHL Lockout in which both men are involved, we have Fehr with 6 work stoppages and Bettman with 3. So yes, if you just look at it like that, it does seem to paint Fehr as the villain here. However, ignoring this year's lockout as it affects both Fehr and Bettman, of Fehr's 5 MLB work stoppages, only 1 resulted in lost games, whereas both of Bettman's previous NHL work stoppages resulted in lost games. How about total games lost due to work stoppages? Fehr lost 931-948 games due to the 1994 MLB Players strike, while Bettman lost 1698 games during his first two lockouts. What's more, if you consider it in perspective, the MLB plays almost twice as many games a year, 162 games vs the NHL's 82 games. So proportionally, Bettman has caused over 3x as many lost games as Fehr has.

So who has presided over more work stoppages? Fehr, 6 (although only in charge for 4 of those) to 3. But who has caused more games to be lost? Bettman, 3x as many as Fehr has. Who has been involved in more work stoppages that were able to be resolved before any real games were lost? Fehr, 4 of his work stoppages (2 in which he was in charge) were able to be resolved without losing any games, whereas Bettman is now 0 for 3 in saving games...


whereas blaming bettman as the only one responsible for this lockout is equally unfair.

bottom line is both fehr and bettman have been known to push the envelope in negotiations. both of them should be treated like villains, not just bettman

Edited by chances14, 22 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.


#65 Johnz96

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:28 PM

whereas blaming bettman as the only one responsible for this lockout is equally unfair.

bottom line is both fehr and bettman have been known to push the envelope in negotiations. both of them should be treated like villains, not just bettman

Before Fehr even became involved with the NHL, they lost more games due to labour disputes than all the major sports leagues combined during his tenure.
Perhaps there's something about the genetics that makes someone a good hockey player that also makes him greedier and stupider than other athletes.

#66 chances14

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

Before Fehr even became involved with the NHL, they lost more games due to labour disputes than all the major sports leagues combined during his tenure.
Perhaps there's something about the genetics that makes someone a good hockey player that also makes him greedier and stupider than other athletes.


i just don't understand how people can't see both sides as being nothing but villians when both sides have displayed instances of bad faith negotiations during this lockout.

#67 Dabura

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:13 PM

bottom line is both fehr and bettman have been known to push the envelope in negotiations. both of them should be treated like villains, not just bettman


Oh, please.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#68 vangvace

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:00 AM

until bob goodenow took over in 1992, there was never a labor stoppage of any kind in the nhl.

so who actually fired the first shot in this war?


You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.
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#69 The Axe

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:25 AM

You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.


Good point. CBA needs to be 20 years so we cant lose a season so often.

#70 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

Oh, please.

Oh please what?
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#71 Nightfall

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

Oh please what?

I can assist.

Oh please, Saint Fehr has been honest and forthcoming in these negotiations. He cannot and has not sinned.

That should sum it up.
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#72 chances14

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

You could argue that the hatred that the NHLPA and NHL haves for one another goes back to Ted Linsay and Co. organizing a union.


that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually

#73 vangvace

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually


I would agree that owner/union relations went futher south after the 1992 strike. However I would say that owners did not repect the players during the Eagleson era. The cattle comment would be pretty close to home really during that timeframe. The 1992 strike though was... ill timed. Owners had enjoyed a seat of control and power within their kingdom. To be embarrassed like that would have not sit well with the likes of Jacobs, Wirtz, and co.

I wouldn't say Bettman or Fehr are the cause of this lockout lasting so long, just the face.
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#74 Johnz96

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:53 PM


that's true.

but the labor war didn't begin until the players started striking. kind of ironic actually

The players were being exploited then



#75 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

How long does the average NHL career last? Most players aren't superstars making 7 figure salaries for 15 years or more. The vast majority play only a few years. Not to mention, the players put themselves at risk every time they step on the ice. Look at Patrick Eaves, will he ever be "normal" again and live without pain? Keith Primeau probably will never live without the effects of his repeated concussions. Same for the Lindros brothers. Most players will likely have some sort of lasting physical or mental ailment as a result of playing in the NHL. What risk do the owners put themselves at? Are their careers over at 25?

 

The players know the risks full well and as a result, that's on them.  No one's holding a gun to their heads...they have every single right to choose whichever occupation they'd like.  Besides, minimum salary in the NHL is $525,000.  If you last even 5 years, there's no excuse for you to not be able to live off that the rest of your life if you're willing to live a more modest lifestyle (I.E. $50-$75K per year based on the Economic Rule of 7).  How many people have the opportunity to say that when they're roughly 27 years old?

 

They're not getting sympathy from me.  They choose their path and its up to them to make their money last.  I know I would if I had NHL Grinder level talent.


It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#76 F.Michael

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

The players know the risks full well and as a result, that's on them.  No one's holding a gun to their heads...they have every single right to choose whichever occupation they'd like.  Besides, minimum salary in the NHL is $525,000.  If you last even 5 years, there's no excuse for you to not be able to live off that the rest of your life if you're willing to live a more modest lifestyle (I.E. $50-$75K per year based on the Economic Rule of 7).  How many people have the opportunity to say that when they're roughly 27 years old?

 

They're not getting sympathy from me.  They choose their path and its up to them to make their money last.  I know I would if I had NHL Grinder level talent.

For roughly $500,000 more added to your base salary of $525,000 - would you be willing to become the 3rd line LW grinder, and team tuff guy?

 

;)


Edited by F.Michael, 07 January 2013 - 09:56 AM.


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#77 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:11 AM

The players know the risks full well and as a result, that's on them.  No one's holding a gun to their heads...they have every single right to choose whichever occupation they'd like.  Besides, minimum salary in the NHL is $525,000.  If you last even 5 years, there's no excuse for you to not be able to live off that the rest of your life if you're willing to live a more modest lifestyle (I.E. $50-$75K per year based on the Economic Rule of 7).  How many people have the opportunity to say that when they're roughly 27 years old?

 

They're not getting sympathy from me.  They choose their path and its up to them to make their money last.  I know I would if I had NHL Grinder level talent.

AMEN! Speak it my brotha. =)


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#78 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

For roughly $500,000 more added to your base salary of $525,000 - would you be willing to become the 3rd line LW grinder, and team tuff guy?

 

;)

 

 

Nope, because I've never been much of a fighter in my life.  I grew up playing the scoring/defensive Center role.

 

However, I'd absolutely play the Patrick Eaves role on any NHL team.  What happened to him does happen, but not all that often when you look at the percentage of those types of players in the NHL.


It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#79 F.Michael

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:27 AM

Nope, because I've never been much of a fighter in my life.  I grew up playing the scoring/defensive Center role.

 

However, I'd absolutely play the Patrick Eaves role on any NHL team.  What happened to him does happen...but not all that often when you look at the percentage of those types of players in the NHL.

 

Really - not for $500,000  more?

 

Gotta give ya credit though - that style of play can be very hard on, and off the ice...I myself would do it - although truth be told I kinda see myself as that Terry Carkner type; 3rd pairing Dman, blocking shots, and punching faces. :lol:



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#80 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:36 AM

Really - not for $500,000  more?

 

Gotta give ya credit though - that style of play can be very hard on, and off the ice...I myself would do it - although truth be told I kinda see myself as that Terry Carkner type; 3rd pairing Dman, blocking shots, and punching faces. :lol:

 

No, because I wouldn't last one season in that role.  Given the scenario I was presented, that would leave me with $1,025,000 and probably a concussion or two.  The other role puts me at $2,625,000 career earnings and a hell of lot better chance of being healthier leaving the game.

 

If you can't tell, I'm all about the numbers.


It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).





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