kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted December 15, 2012 No, I mean like Mark Mowers, Josh Langfeld, Cory Emmerton, Mark Hartigan, Mattias Ritola, and Kyle Calder. Mowers (52 games), Langfield (33 games), Emmerton (71 games), Hartigan (23 games), Ritola (7 games), Calder (19 games). Man Ken Holland loves softies fourth liners, which is why they are constantly playing more games than tough guys like Dallas Drake (65 games), Aaron Downey (60 games), Brad May (40 games), Kocur (136 games), McCarty (200+ games), Malty (200+ games), Draper (200+ games). Try all you want, but whenever anyone tries to make the argument that Ken Holland doesn't like tough payers they are demonstrably wrong. For every Ville Leino you can point at, I can point out a Dallas Drake who played for the team much more often and in more important roles...all on the fourth line. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league, get over it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted December 15, 2012 No, I mean like Mark Mowers, Josh Langfeld, Cory Emmerton, Mark Hartigan, Mattias Ritola, and Kyle Calder. Mowers and Hartigan were not notably soft. And who in his right mind would call Kyle Calder a soft fourth-liner? That description is broken in every conceivable way. When Calder was traded to the Wings, he was coming off a 26-goal season; he was put on the 2nd line with Hudler and Lang, whereupon he scored 14 points in 19 games. More, this was a guy nicknamed "greasy" for his gritty play. Anyway---as kipwinger has noted, none of the rest of those guys played many games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted December 15, 2012 The youth will be injected into the line-up slowly over the next 2 seasons. Tatar, Nyquist, Brunner and Smith will play, they are all proving that they are NHL guys either in the AHL or overseas (Brunner may need to adapt, but playing with Z helps him alot). Almqvist, Billins and Lashoff are having good showings in GR as well and figure to be in the mix if they keep progressing. Along with Ferraro and Andersson who are taking positive steps forward at the forward position in GR this year as well. Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Sheahan are all years away but have good upside. I'm very excited for the Wings going forward, even with no hockey this season the Wings prospects are developing well. All that said with no mention of Mrazek but my stance on him has always been as soon as he's needed in the NHL he'll be here. 1 GoWings1905 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted December 15, 2012 Mowers (52 games), Langfield (33 games), Emmerton (71 games), Hartigan (23 games), Ritola (7 games), Calder (19 games). Man Ken Holland loves softies fourth liners, which is why they are constantly playing more games than tough guys like Dallas Drake (65 games), Aaron Downey (60 games), Brad May (40 games), Kocur (136 games), McCarty (200+ games), Malty (200+ games), Draper (200+ games). Try all you want, but whenever anyone tries to make the argument that Ken Holland doesn't like tough payers they are demonstrably wrong. For every Ville Leino you can point at, I can point out a Dallas Drake who played for the team much more often and in more important roles...all on the fourth line. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league, get over it. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league? Really? Which is why we had arguably the softest NHL team of all time in 2005/2006. Lots of grit on that team. Same with 2006/2007. You're saying for every soft player Ken employs, there's a tough guy? Jiri Hudler-409 GP Robert Lang-159 GP Jason Williams-455 GP Ville Leino-55 GP Johan Franzen-472 GP Brett Lebda-326 GP These guys played the majority, if not, all of their games with Detroit post-lockout. In addition to the guys I mentioned that played less. So, name some other tough guys Ken has played in the post-lockout era. I'm happy we got Tootoo. However, claiming Ken plays tough guys just as much as anyone else is laughable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league? Really? Which is why we had arguably the softest NHL team of all time in 2005/2006. Lots of grit on that team. Same with 2006/2007. You're saying for every soft player Ken employs, there's a tough guy? Jiri Hudler-409 GP Robert Lang-159 GP Jason Williams-455 GP Ville Leino-55 GP Johan Franzen-472 GP Brett Lebda-326 GP These guys played the majority, if not, all of their games with Detroit post-lockout. In addition to the guys I mentioned that played less. So, name some other tough guys Ken has played in the post-lockout era. I'm happy we got Tootoo. However, claiming Ken plays tough guys just as much as anyone else is laughable. Ok, I'd love to oblige you. Brendan Shanahan, Jiri Fischer, Chris Chelios, Danny Markov, Todd Bertuzzi, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Aaron Downey, Brad May, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart and now Jordin Tootoo all played for the Wings post lockout (not that post lockout should matter since Holland was the GM before the lockout), and all of them are noted for their tough and/or gritty play. I think you are understating the number of tough guys the Wings have used simply because most of them aren't goons and don't take stupid penalties, which given your screen name is something you obviously enjoy. But to say the Wings have not used gritty/tough players under Holland is wrong. Dead f'ing wrong. Edited December 15, 2012 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted December 16, 2012 Ok, I'd love to oblige you. Brendan Shanahan, Jiri Fischer, Chris Chelios, Danny Markov, Todd Bertuzzi, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Aaron Downey, Brad May, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart and now Jordin Tootoo all played for the Wings post lockout (not that post lockout should matter since Holland was the GM before the lockout), and all of them are noted for their tough and/or gritty play. I think you are understating the number of tough guys the Wings have used simply because most of them aren't goons and don't take stupid penalties, which given your screen name is something you obviously enjoy. But to say the Wings have not used gritty/tough players under Holland is wrong. Dead f'ing wrong. Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Detroit hasn't used gritty players under Holland. Good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I don't want goons that take dumb penalties on this team. Again, good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I used post-lockout because it seems to me, since the lockout, that Ken has been reluctant to keep scrappy guys around. I (like many folks on here) loved Brad May and Aaron Downey in their short tenures here. There's no denying we had incredibly well-rounded teams under Holland before the lockout. I like the acquisition of Jordin Tootoo. Finally we'll have a guy that can put up some points, play physical, and fight. Ever wonder why I don't harp on guys like Drew Miller, who don't play physical? He serves a purpose. He's a solid part of our penalty killing unit. Guys like Emmerton are expendable. He's quick. Okay, well he doesn't play physical, doesn't kill penalties, and isn't particularly valuable offensively. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,522 Report post Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Detroit hasn't used gritty players under Holland. Good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I don't want goons that take dumb penalties on this team. Again, good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I used post-lockout because it seems to me, since the lockout, that Ken has been reluctant to keep scrappy guys around. I (like many folks on here) loved Brad May and Aaron Downey in their short tenures here. There's no denying we had incredibly well-rounded teams under Holland before the lockout. I like the acquisition of Jordin Tootoo. Finally we'll have a guy that can put up some points, play physical, and fight. Ever wonder why I don't harp on guys like Drew Miller, who don't play physical? He serves a purpose. He's a solid part of our penalty killing unit. Guys like Emmerton are expendable. He's quick. Okay, well he doesn't play physical, doesn't kill penalties, and isn't particularly valuable offensively. 1. Correct, you didn't say it explicitly. However when you say "Holland loves his soft fourth liners", call the 05-06 team "probably the softest of all time", sarcastically saying "lots of grit on that team", and then challenge me to name tough players who have played since the lockout, you strongly insinuate it. Now you can say all day long that such an insinuation wasn't your intent, but I'm going to have to call bulls***. 2. May and Downey did not play with the Wings for very long, but neither did Leino, Ritola, Hartigan, Langfield, Mowers, or Calder and you were more than happy to use them as evidence that "Holland loves his soft fourth liners". May and Downey, incidentally, played more games for the Wings than most of the guys you mentioned. 3. Perhaps the reason he doesn't keep guys like Downey, Drake, and May around is because they are a dime a dozen and so there's no need to sign them to long term contracts. Also, maybe because all three of them retired after playing in Detroit. Those tough players who aren't old or perpetual fourth liners do get signed long term, like Maltby, Shanan, Draper, Kronwall, Chelios, and Stuart who were all kept around for a while. Edited December 16, 2012 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) 1. Correct, you didn't say it explicitly. However when you say "Holland loves his soft fourth liners", call the 05-06 team "probably the softest of all time", sarcastically saying "lots of grit on that team", and then challenge me to name tough players who have played since the lockout, you strongly insinuate it. Now you can say all day long that such an insinuation wasn't your intent, but I'm going to have to call bulls***. 2. May and Downey did not play with the Wings for very long, but neither did Leino, Ritola, Hartigan, Langfield, Mowers, or Calder and you were more than happy to use them as evidence that "Holland loves his soft fourth liners". May and Downey, incidentally, played more games for the Wings than most of the guys you mentioned. 3. Perhaps the reason he doesn't keep guys like Downey, Drake, and May around is because they are a dime a dozen and so there's no need to sign them to long term contracts. Also, maybe because all three of them retired after playing in Detroit. Those tough players who aren't old or perpetual fourth liners do get signed long term, like Maltby, Shanan, Draper, Kronwall, Chelios, and Stuart who were all kept around for a while. So, because I say Kenny likes his soft 4th liners and call the 2005/06 team one of the softest ever, that means I believe that there hasn't been any yough players since the lockout? Gotcha. I asked you to name tough players since the lockout because you assured me that for every Leino I could mention, you could mention a Dallas Drake. So I asked you. Problem?Call BS all you want, I don't understand how you think I honestly believe that Detroit hasn't had any tough players since the lockout. Soft guys like Emmerton have played longer than May and Downey. That is my issue. If they're so plentily available, why doesn't Ken bring in younger guys that will be a constant for multiple years? Edited December 16, 2012 by Bring Back The Bruise Bros Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted December 16, 2012 Emmerton isnt soft. He has speed. Big difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted December 16, 2012 Emmerton isnt soft. He has speed. Big difference. Nobody is being fooled by the troll routine, pal. 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted December 17, 2012 Wings forward lines have no identity Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest irishock Report post Posted December 17, 2012 Wings forward lines have no identity Disagree. It's clear that the top 2 are scoring lines with Pavs, Mule, Z and Fil, 3rd is a grinding line with Helm and 4th is a fighter's line with Tootoo/Bertuzzi/Abby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted December 17, 2012 Disagree. It's clear that the top 2 are scoring lines with Pavs, Mule, Z and Fil, 3rd is a grinding line with Helm and 4th is a fighter's line with Tootoo/Bertuzzi/Abby. Those arent the best fighters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted December 17, 2012 I think the forwards definitely have an identity, particularly the bottom-six. The problem is the top-six is aging and can't score goals in the playoffs. Need a sniper and some size (said every year since Hossa left). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted December 17, 2012 what's the identity? None of the forward lines are set. Aside from Datsyuk and Zetterberg every forward could be moved from the first to third line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted December 17, 2012 what's the identity? None of the forward lines are set. Aside from Datsyuk and Zetterberg every forward could be moved from the first to third line. How do you know ? Did Babcock show you a draft of the different lines he wants to use ? Why not wait until the season starts (hopefully this year) before saying there is no identity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted December 17, 2012 How do you know ? Did Babcock show you a draft of the different lines he wants to use ? Why not wait until the season starts (hopefully this year) before saying there is no identity. Truth hurts. We have a talent problem up front in that we are missing goal scoring and size. We are banking on Brunner and Nyquist being the next Shanahan and Robitaille. This is a joke. Nyquist will probably pan out to be a decent 2nd line winger. Brunner will probably not make it. Either way, we are still soft. Thats our identity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted December 17, 2012 My problem is players like Bertuzzi and Cleary who are called upon to produce above their abilities. Their season statistics look great based on their salary but when the Wings play good teams and in the playoffs then our weaknesses are shown Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) Truth hurts. We have a talent problem up front in that we are missing goal scoring and size. We are banking on Brunner and Nyquist being the next Shanahan and Robitaille. This is a joke. Nyquist will probably pan out to be a decent 2nd line winger. Brunner will probably not make it. Either way, we are still soft. Thats our identity. Hopefully Nyquist pans out, and Brunner's impact can't really be predicted. He may be a diamond in the rough, he may be a bust. But yes, I think we need some muscle in the top 6. Isn't Ryane Clowe a UFA next summer? Jordin Tootoo adds some identity to our 4th line. I'm skeptical as to how effective Bertuzzi, Cleary, and Samuelsson will be next season. Which is why I still disagree with Ken signing Bertuzzi and Samuelsson to two-year deals. Edited December 18, 2012 by Bring Back The Bruise Bros Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted December 18, 2012 what's the identity? None of the forward lines are set. Aside from Datsyuk and Zetterberg every forward could be moved from the first to third line. The lack of identity didn't seem to bother Bowman's Wings much Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
