69 replies to this topic

[rick zombo]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen
Nyquist-Filppula-Samuelsson
Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi
Miller-Abdelkader-Tootoo

Kronwall-White
Quincey-Smith
Ericsson-Colaiacovo

I'd rather see Abdelkader at the wing.

You'd have to think with the way Z and Brunner have been playing that Babcock will at least give that pair a shot, assuming there's a shortened season.

Samuelson - Datsyuk - Franzen
Filpulla - Z - Brunner
Nyquist - Helm - Cleary
Bertuzzi - Abby - Tootoo

But, of course, Brunner and Nyquist will be on a short leash, and with potential injuries, Miller, Emmerton, and Mursak (and Andersson and Tatar) will all be lined up to take a roster space.

Plus, with a condensed schedule, I can see Babcock subbing lots of guys, to keep the legs fresh and the compete level high.

[number9]

Emmerton should be first line center with all the skill he clearly has

I imagine Axe would take this deal

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

You'd have to think with the way Z and Brunner have been playing that Babcock will at least give that pair a shot, assuming there's a shortened season.

Samuelson - Datsyuk - Franzen
Filpulla - Z - Brunner
Nyquist - Helm - Cleary
Bertuzzi - Abby - Tootoo

But, of course, Brunner and Nyquist will be on a short leash, and with potential injuries, Miller, Emmerton, and Mursak (and Andersson and Tatar) will all be lined up to take a roster space.

Plus, with a condensed schedule, I can see Babcock subbing lots of guys, to keep the legs fresh and the compete level high.

I should've listed the extra forwards. Yeah, I think Brunner will see some time as an experiment with Zetterberg. Obviously, at least one of Mursak, Miller, Emmerton, and Eaves has to go. We simply have too many forwards right now. But yes, I see a lot of alternating going on, as well.

I'm not at all confident we're gonna see hockey this year, however.

[The Axe]

You're finally catching on. How about we compare these 4th line centers:

Kyle Chipchura-16 points in 53 games. Physical, but very disciplined.
Cory Emmerton-10 points 71 games. As said before, he's fast, but he isn't physical at all and doesn't provide a whole hell of a lot offensively.

Not sure what it would take for Phoenix to send him here, but it needs to happen.

Lets compare these 1st line wingers:

Steven Stamkos- 57 goals, 98 points in 79 games.
Johan Franzen- 25 goals, 49 points in 73 games.

Not sure what it takes for Tampa to send him here, but it needs to happen.


What a bad argument. Emmerton is a Red Wing and is developing. Hes played ONE year. Be patient.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Lets compare these 1st line wingers:

Steven Stamkos- 57 goals, 98 points in 79 games.
Johan Franzen- 25 goals, 49 points in 73 games.

Not sure what it takes for Tampa to send him here, but it needs to happen.


What a bad argument. Emmerton is a Red Wing and is developing. Hes played ONE year. Be patient.

Coming from the queen of bad arguments. Its okay, Cory. You probably won't get traded, anyway. Kenny loves his soft 4th liners. Don't expect to play in front of Tootoo, though.

[number9]

Lets compare these 1st line wingers:

Steven Stamkos- 57 goals, 98 points in 79 games.
Johan Franzen- 25 goals, 49 points in 73 games.

Not sure what it takes for Tampa to send him here, but it needs to happen.


What a bad argument. Emmerton is a Red Wing and is developing. Hes played ONE year. Be patient.

Why don't we just trade our super-star Cory Emmerton for him? E-dog is pretty much still a prospect at the baby age of 24, and like you said has so much more developing to do. Could turn out to be a hall of famer! Why wouldn't Tampa want him? Giterdone Kenneth!

[The Axe]

Why don't we just trade our super-star Cory Emmerton for him? E-dog is pretty much still a prospect at the baby age of 24, and like you said has so much more developing to do. Could turn out to be a hall of famer! Why wouldn't Tampa want him? Giterdone Kenneth!

Now you're being ridiculous. But I like how you're coming around to liking the E ticket!

[kipwinger]

Coming from the queen of bad arguments. Its okay, Cory. You probably won't get traded, anyway. Kenny loves his soft 4th liners. Don't expect to play in front of Tootoo, though.

Ken Holland loves soft fourth liners huh? You mean like Dallas Drake, Aaron Downie, Brad May, Joey Kocur, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, and Kris Draper? That soft, or softer?

[The Axe]

Ken Holland loves soft fourth liners huh? You mean like Dallas Drake, Aaron Downie, Brad May, Joey Kocur, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, and Kris Draper? That soft, or softer?

Exactly. Emmerton is the LEAST of the Wings issues. But everyone acts like we gotta shore up forwards 10, 11, and 12 to be good again. WRONG!

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Ken Holland loves soft fourth liners huh? You mean like Dallas Drake, Aaron Downie, Brad May, Joey Kocur, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, and Kris Draper? That soft, or softer?

No, I mean like Mark Mowers, Josh Langfeld, Cory Emmerton, Mark Hartigan, Mattias Ritola, and Kyle Calder.

[kipwinger]

No, I mean like Mark Mowers, Josh Langfeld, Cory Emmerton, Mark Hartigan, Mattias Ritola, and Kyle Calder.

Mowers (52 games), Langfield (33 games), Emmerton (71 games), Hartigan (23 games), Ritola (7 games), Calder (19 games).

Man Ken Holland loves softies fourth liners, which is why they are constantly playing more games than tough guys like Dallas Drake (65 games), Aaron Downey (60 games), Brad May (40 games), Kocur (136 games), McCarty (200+ games), Malty (200+ games), Draper (200+ games).

Try all you want, but whenever anyone tries to make the argument that Ken Holland doesn't like tough payers they are demonstrably wrong. For every Ville Leino you can point at, I can point out a Dallas Drake who played for the team much more often and in more important roles...all on the fourth line. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league, get over it.

[Crymson]

No, I mean like Mark Mowers, Josh Langfeld, Cory Emmerton, Mark Hartigan, Mattias Ritola, and Kyle Calder.

Mowers and Hartigan were not notably soft. And who in his right mind would call Kyle Calder a soft fourth-liner? That description is broken in every conceivable way. When Calder was traded to the Wings, he was coming off a 26-goal season; he was put on the 2nd line with Hudler and Lang, whereupon he scored 14 points in 19 games. More, this was a guy nicknamed "greasy" for his gritty play.

Anyway---as kipwinger has noted, none of the rest of those guys played many games.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

The youth will be injected into the line-up slowly over the next 2 seasons. Tatar, Nyquist, Brunner and Smith will play, they are all proving that they are NHL guys either in the AHL or overseas (Brunner may need to adapt, but playing with Z helps him alot). Almqvist, Billins and Lashoff are having good showings in GR as well and figure to be in the mix if they keep progressing. Along with Ferraro and Andersson who are taking positive steps forward at the forward position in GR this year as well. Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Sheahan are all years away but have good upside. I'm very excited for the Wings going forward, even with no hockey this season the Wings prospects are developing well. All that said with no mention of Mrazek but my stance on him has always been as soon as he's needed in the NHL he'll be here.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Mowers (52 games), Langfield (33 games), Emmerton (71 games), Hartigan (23 games), Ritola (7 games), Calder (19 games).

Man Ken Holland loves softies fourth liners, which is why they are constantly playing more games than tough guys like Dallas Drake (65 games), Aaron Downey (60 games), Brad May (40 games), Kocur (136 games), McCarty (200+ games), Malty (200+ games), Draper (200+ games).

Try all you want, but whenever anyone tries to make the argument that Ken Holland doesn't like tough payers they are demonstrably wrong. For every Ville Leino you can point at, I can point out a Dallas Drake who played for the team much more often and in more important roles...all on the fourth line. Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league, get over it.

Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league? Really? Which is why we had arguably the softest NHL team of all time in 2005/2006. Lots of grit on that team. Same with 2006/2007. You're saying for every soft player Ken employs, there's a tough guy?

Jiri Hudler-409 GP
Robert Lang-159 GP
Jason Williams-455 GP
Ville Leino-55 GP
Johan Franzen-472 GP
Brett Lebda-326 GP

These guys played the majority, if not, all of their games with Detroit post-lockout. In addition to the guys I mentioned that played less. So, name some other tough guys Ken has played in the post-lockout era.

I'm happy we got Tootoo. However, claiming Ken plays tough guys just as much as anyone else is laughable.

[kipwinger]

Holland uses tough guys just as much as anyone else in the league? Really? Which is why we had arguably the softest NHL team of all time in 2005/2006. Lots of grit on that team. Same with 2006/2007. You're saying for every soft player Ken employs, there's a tough guy?

Jiri Hudler-409 GP
Robert Lang-159 GP
Jason Williams-455 GP
Ville Leino-55 GP
Johan Franzen-472 GP
Brett Lebda-326 GP

These guys played the majority, if not, all of their games with Detroit post-lockout. In addition to the guys I mentioned that played less. So, name some other tough guys Ken has played in the post-lockout era.

I'm happy we got Tootoo. However, claiming Ken plays tough guys just as much as anyone else is laughable.

Ok, I'd love to oblige you. Brendan Shanahan, Jiri Fischer, Chris Chelios, Danny Markov, Todd Bertuzzi, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Aaron Downey, Brad May, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart and now Jordin Tootoo all played for the Wings post lockout (not that post lockout should matter since Holland was the GM before the lockout), and all of them are noted for their tough and/or gritty play. I think you are understating the number of tough guys the Wings have used simply because most of them aren't goons and don't take stupid penalties, which given your screen name is something you obviously enjoy. But to say the Wings have not used gritty/tough players under Holland is wrong. Dead f'ing wrong.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 December 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Ok, I'd love to oblige you. Brendan Shanahan, Jiri Fischer, Chris Chelios, Danny Markov, Todd Bertuzzi, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Kirk Maltby, Kris Draper, Aaron Downey, Brad May, Niklas Kronwall, Brad Stuart and now Jordin Tootoo all played for the Wings post lockout (not that post lockout should matter since Holland was the GM before the lockout), and all of them are noted for their tough and/or gritty play. I think you are understating the number of tough guys the Wings have used simply because most of them aren't goons and don't take stupid penalties, which given your screen name is something you obviously enjoy. But to say the Wings have not used gritty/tough players under Holland is wrong. Dead f'ing wrong.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Detroit hasn't used gritty players under Holland. Good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I don't want goons that take dumb penalties on this team. Again, good luck finding a quote of me saying that.

I used post-lockout because it seems to me, since the lockout, that Ken has been reluctant to keep scrappy guys around. I (like many folks on here) loved Brad May and Aaron Downey in their short tenures here. There's no denying we had incredibly well-rounded teams under Holland before the lockout.

I like the acquisition of Jordin Tootoo. Finally we'll have a guy that can put up some points, play physical, and fight. Ever wonder why I don't harp on guys like Drew Miller, who don't play physical? He serves a purpose. He's a solid part of our penalty killing unit. Guys like Emmerton are expendable. He's quick. Okay, well he doesn't play physical, doesn't kill penalties, and isn't particularly valuable offensively.

[kipwinger]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Detroit hasn't used gritty players under Holland. Good luck finding a quote of me saying that. I don't want goons that take dumb penalties on this team. Again, good luck finding a quote of me saying that.

I used post-lockout because it seems to me, since the lockout, that Ken has been reluctant to keep scrappy guys around. I (like many folks on here) loved Brad May and Aaron Downey in their short tenures here. There's no denying we had incredibly well-rounded teams under Holland before the lockout.

I like the acquisition of Jordin Tootoo. Finally we'll have a guy that can put up some points, play physical, and fight. Ever wonder why I don't harp on guys like Drew Miller, who don't play physical? He serves a purpose. He's a solid part of our penalty killing unit. Guys like Emmerton are expendable. He's quick. Okay, well he doesn't play physical, doesn't kill penalties, and isn't particularly valuable offensively.

1. Correct, you didn't say it explicitly. However when you say "Holland loves his soft fourth liners", call the 05-06 team "probably the softest of all time", sarcastically saying "lots of grit on that team", and then challenge me to name tough players who have played since the lockout, you strongly insinuate it. Now you can say all day long that such an insinuation wasn't your intent, but I'm going to have to call bulls***.

2. May and Downey did not play with the Wings for very long, but neither did Leino, Ritola, Hartigan, Langfield, Mowers, or Calder and you were more than happy to use them as evidence that "Holland loves his soft fourth liners". May and Downey, incidentally, played more games for the Wings than most of the guys you mentioned.

3. Perhaps the reason he doesn't keep guys like Downey, Drake, and May around is because they are a dime a dozen and so there's no need to sign them to long term contracts. Also, maybe because all three of them retired after playing in Detroit. Those tough players who aren't old or perpetual fourth liners do get signed long term, like Maltby, Shanan, Draper, Kronwall, Chelios, and Stuart who were all kept around for a while.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 December 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

1. Correct, you didn't say it explicitly. However when you say "Holland loves his soft fourth liners", call the 05-06 team "probably the softest of all time", sarcastically saying "lots of grit on that team", and then challenge me to name tough players who have played since the lockout, you strongly insinuate it. Now you can say all day long that such an insinuation wasn't your intent, but I'm going to have to call bulls***.

2. May and Downey did not play with the Wings for very long, but neither did Leino, Ritola, Hartigan, Langfield, Mowers, or Calder and you were more than happy to use them as evidence that "Holland loves his soft fourth liners". May and Downey, incidentally, played more games for the Wings than most of the guys you mentioned.

3. Perhaps the reason he doesn't keep guys like Downey, Drake, and May around is because they are a dime a dozen and so there's no need to sign them to long term contracts. Also, maybe because all three of them retired after playing in Detroit. Those tough players who aren't old or perpetual fourth liners do get signed long term, like Maltby, Shanan, Draper, Kronwall, Chelios, and Stuart who were all kept around for a while.

So, because I say Kenny likes his soft 4th liners and call the 2005/06 team one of the softest ever, that means I believe that there hasn't been any yough players since the lockout? Gotcha. I asked you to name tough players since the lockout because you assured me that for every Leino I could mention, you could mention a Dallas Drake. So I asked you. Problem?Call BS all you want, I don't understand how you think I honestly believe that Detroit hasn't had any tough players since the lockout.

Soft guys like Emmerton have played longer than May and Downey.

That is my issue. If they're so plentily available, why doesn't Ken bring in younger guys that will be a constant for multiple years?

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 15 December 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[The Axe]

Emmerton isnt soft. He has speed. Big difference.

[Crymson]

Emmerton isnt soft. He has speed. Big difference.

Nobody is being fooled by the troll routine, pal.