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#21 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

It won't happen. If for some wild reason it did, this is the Detroit Red Wings team I want:

Benn-Datsyuk-Zetterberg
Clowe-Filppula-Clarkson
Glencross-Helm-Neil
Beleskey-Chipchura-Tootoo
-McGrattan

Girardi-Enstrom
Kronwall-White
Bickel-Smith

Howard
Biron


I like the toughness, but I can't help but remind you that ALL players would be UFA's. The ONLY guys that I would keep that is on our team now is Datsyuk and possibly Helm. But as long as I still had a shot at the elite of the elite (including goalies) I am not going after any other current Red Wings until I have to.

Zetterberg has been great here, but as long as Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Half the Edmonton team, Tavares, Stamkos and the likes are available, Zetterberg isn't on my team. I would only nab Kronwall if I could land Hedman along with Suter or Weber.

I know there is still a cap, so I do agree with the fact that I cannot have an all star team, but I love the idea of Malkin or Ovie playing top line with Datsyuk over Zetterberg.

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#22 kipwinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

Boy it would be super exciting to see Detroit buy a cup again. WooHoo, just what I've been missing. Screw all of that drafting, developing, and working young players into your system, that's not fun or interesting. It's way more sweet when Mike Ilitch can just buy anyone he wants. That's what real hockey looks like.

The guy who posted above me just said he wouldn't sign Zetterberg! Yeah f*** the guy who's played his whole career for you, is the heart and soul of your current lineup, and took a pay cut to stay with you during his prime. Get rid of him! Ilitch can buy better.

I seriously hope that nobody who is in favor of this, and especially nobody that would kick Zetterberg to the curb, ever talks about class in hockey again. You clearly don't know it, don't have it, and wouldn't recognize it if it bit you in the ass.

Edited by kipwinger, 19 December 2012 - 07:59 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

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#23 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

Boy it would be super exciting to see Detroit buy a cup again. WooHoo, just what I've been missing. Screw all of that drafting, developing, and working young players into your system, that's not fun or interesting. It's way more sweet when Mike Ilitch can just buy anyone he wants. That's what real hockey looks like.

The guy who posted above me just said he wouldn't sign Zetterberg! Yeah f*** the guy who's played his whole career for you, is the heart and soul of your current lineup, and took a pay cut to stay with you during his prime. Get rid of him! Ilitch can buy better.

I seriously hope that nobody who is in favor of this, and especially nobody that would kick Zetterberg to the curb, ever talks about class in hockey again. You clearly don't know it, don't have it, and wouldn't recognize it if it bit you in the ass.


If I have my choice of Zetterberg or Stampkos or Ovechkin or Malkin playing along side Dastyuk, Z is gone....Especially since the front loaded contracts will be gone so you couldn't ice too many top tier stars...ya sign the guy with the bad back and on the decline of his career, who has slowly done worse and worse each year since 2008...ya, sign him and tell the top 10 talent of the league to take a hike we don't want to win....Now if Z sign a modest contract to be 2nd/3rd line center, thats a different story...but no way am I choosing a chronically hurt older player of a Crosby/Stamkos or Tavares or Malkin/Ovie...


Just for giggles, exactly what Cup did Illitch buy?

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 December 2012 - 08:11 PM.

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#24 kipwinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

If I have my choice of Zetterberg or Stampkos or Ovechkin or Malkin playing along side Dastyuk, Z is gone....Especially since the front loaded contracts will be gone so you couldn't ice too many top tier stars...


Just for giggles, exactly what Cup did Illitch buy?


And clearly if you have the choice you'll show no appreciation or loyalty to a good leader, teammate, and hockey player and instead err on the side of money and young legs. Classy dude.

He bought the cup in 2002.

Edited by kipwinger, 19 December 2012 - 08:10 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#25 joshy207

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

I know there is still a cap, so I do agree with the fact that I cannot have an all star team, but I love the idea of Malkin or Ovie playing top line with Datsyuk over Zetterberg.


Actually, there would be no cap, because there would be no CBA, because there would be no Players' Association. It would be a complete and total free-for-all.

#26 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

And clearly if you have the choice you'll show no appreciation or loyalty to a good leader, teammate, and hockey player and instead err on the side of money and young legs. Classy dude.

He bought the cup in 2002.


Here we go.....

Steve Yzerman - draft pick

Brendan Shanahan - acquired for Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau Oct. 1996

Sergei Fedorov - draft pick

Brett Hull - signed as UFA August 22, 2001 WELL after 29 other teams could have offered him a contract.

Nick Lidstrom - draft pick

Chris Chelios - acquired for Ander Eriksson and TWO 1st round draft picks March 1999

Tomas Holmstrom - draft pick

Igor Larionov - acquired for Ray Sheppard Oct. 1995 - re-acquired for Yan Golubovsky Dec. 2000

Luc Robitalle - signed as UFA July 5th 2001 for his beloved LA Kings didn't even want him back that year...

Darren McCarty - draft pick

Pavel Datsyuk - draft pick

Kirk Maltby - acquired for Dan McGillis March 1996

Boyd Devereaux - signed as UFA August 23rd 2000, well after 29 other could have offered him a contract...

Frederick Olausson - signed as UFA May 2001 out of Swiss League (who else wanted him? Noone.)

Steve Duschesne - signed as UFA Sept. 1999 well after 29 other teams had a chance to offer a contract...

Kris Draper - acquired for $1 (CAN) and future considerations June 1993

Mathieu Dandenault - draft pick

Dom Hasek - acquired for Slava Kozlov and a 1st round pick July 2001

Uwe Krupp - signed as UFA July 1998

Manny Legace - signed as UFA August 1999, claimed off waivers from VAN Oct. 1999

Jiri Slegr - acqured for Yuri Butsayev and a 3rd round draft pick

Jason Williams - signed as an undrafted UFA in Sept 2000....


that is the playoff roster, so show me exactly where Illtich BOUGHT the Cup...I see a team built through drafting, trading assests for assests and acquiring UFA's that everyone passed on, with the exception of MAYBE Robitaille and he didn't have to outbid ANY of the other teams for ANY of the UFA's he signed...and remember they had justlost LaPointe to UFA so they needed to replace his production and they did so 4 days after 29 other teams could have thrown big bucks as Luc....

anyone who says Illitch bought that 02 Cup hasn't paid any attention to how the Yankees or Heat operate....If somehow the Wild pull off a Cup win this year (or when they come back) you can accuse them of buying a Cup...

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 December 2012 - 08:42 PM.

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#27 kipwinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

Here we go.....

Steve Yzerman - draft pick

Brendan Shanahan - acquired for Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau Oct. 1996

Sergei Fedorov - draft pick

Brett Hull - signed as UFA August 22, 2001 WELL after 29 other teams could have offered him a contract.

Nick Lidstrom - draft pick

Chris Chelios - acquired for Ander Eriksson and TWO 1st round draft picks March 1999

Tomas Holmstrom - draft pick

Igor Larionov - acquired for Ray Sheppard Oct. 1995 - re-acquired for Yan Golubovsky Dec. 2000

Luc Robitalle - signed as UFA July 5th 2001 for his beloved LA Kings didn't even want him back that year...

Darren McCarty - draft pick

Pavel Datsyuk - draft pick

Kirk Maltby - acquired for Dan McGillis March 1996

Boyd Devereaux - signed as UFA August 23rd 2000, well after 29 other could have offered him a contract...

Frederick Olausson - signed as UFA May 2001 out of Swiss League (who else wanted him? Noone.)

Steve Duschesne - signed as UFA Sept. 1999 well after 29 other teams had a chance to offer a contract...

Kris Draper - acquired for $1 (CAN) and future considerations June 1993

Mathieu Dandenault - draft pick

Dom Hasek - acquired for Slava Kozlov and a 1st round pick July 2001

Uwe Krupp - signed as UFA July 1998

Manny Legace - signed as UFA August 1999, claimed off waivers from VAN Oct. 1999

Jiri Slegr - acqured for Yuri Butsayev and a 3rd round draft pick

Jason Williams - signed as an undrafted UFA in Sept 2000....


that is the playoff roster, so show me exactly where Illtich BOUGHT the Cup...I see a team built through drafting, trading assests for assests and acquiring UFA's that everyone passed on, with the exception of MAYBE Robitaille and he didn't have to outbid ANY of the other teams for ANY of the UFA's he signed...and remember they had justlost LaPointe to UFA so they needed to replace his production and they did so 4 days after 29 other teams could have thrown big bucks as Luc....

anyone who says Illitch bought that 02 Cup hasn't paid any attention to how the Yankees or Heat operate....If somehow the Wild pull off a Cup win this year (or when they come back) you can accuse them of buying a Cup...


When more than a third of your playoff roster accounting for some 45 playoff points comes from free agency you sure as hell didn't draft/develop the team internally. What would you call it?

Note: HAHA, I didn't even read the rest of your post above where you said the only players you would keep are Datsyuk and (maybe) Helm. You don't give a damn what I'm saying, you've already admitted you'd piss away every other player that we've developed and buy new ones. Why am I even talking to you about this, apparently you not only don't mind if an owner buys a team, you've admitted you'd do it yourself given the opportunity. Classy dude, good old fashioned hockey at its best.

Edited by kipwinger, 19 December 2012 - 08:55 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#28 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

When more than a third of your playoff roster accounting for some 45 playoff points comes from free agency you sure as hell didn't draft/develop the team internally. What would you call it?

Not that it would matter to you, anybody on the team is apparently expendable provided you've got the money no? Just part of good old fashioned hockey.


The point is, only three UFA's were acquired in 2001 for that season, Hull was the only one with more than 10 playoff points and he didn't sign until August 2001 and had plaenty of offers worth MORE money. Robitaille was signed to replace Lapointe and again, he chose Detroit when LA didn't want him, Illitch did not have to outbid anyone for him and nobody even remembered Olausson when Detroit signed him in May of 01....the rest of the team was either already there for years or acquired by trades, which in no way equals buying a Cup by signing all the top UFA's in one year to win a Cup...

if you are basing your opinion that way for the 2002 Cup, then Illitch must have bought all his Cups because he added pieces each of those years as well via UFA...if that is the case then every team buys the Cup every year...in 2001-2002 Illitch didn't even come near what Minnesota did last July and what Illitch tried to do himself...The core of 2002 was built via the draft and trades and were all there in 97 and 98...but I guess since Holland happened to draft tons of future HOF's and gave up valuable assests for missing pieces and happened to be the destination of players who wanted to win, I guess they never really earned it then....

also, those three UFA's accounted for 33 playoff points, 18 from Hull. That is only 17% of the playoff scoring...77% of the playoff scoring (minus the other UFA's) were from drafted and acquired players....Unfortunate for your argument, the Wings more than likely still win the Cup without the 33 points from those three UFA's....

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 December 2012 - 09:10 PM.

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#29 frankgrimes

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

Boy it would be super exciting to see Detroit buy a cup again. WooHoo, just what I've been missing. Screw all of that drafting, developing, and working young players into your system, that's not fun or interesting. It's way more sweet when Mike Ilitch can just buy anyone he wants. That's what real hockey looks like.

The guy who posted above me just said he wouldn't sign Zetterberg! Yeah f*** the guy who's played his whole career for you, is the heart and soul of your current lineup, and took a pay cut to stay with you during his prime. Get rid of him! Ilitch can buy better.

I seriously hope that nobody who is in favor of this, and especially nobody that would kick Zetterberg to the curb, ever talks about class in hockey again. You clearly don't know it, don't have it, and wouldn't recognize it if it bit you in the ass.


When again did Detroit buy a cup? Thef****** best owner in all of sports provided just what is needed to ice a great team i.e. the 2002 Wings, may I remind you that teams like Toronto, New York did have similar if not higher payrolls back then?

Would I kick out Z? Hell no but Malkin would be an absolute beast on Datsyuks line so Z might become a second line center but still the next captain of the team and a Wing for life.

I'd probably keep the following: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, Filpulla go extremely! hard after Miller and then try to sign Toews, Stamkos, Letang, Weber and bring in McGrattan and maybe 2 other in your face guys who can play too. This would easily become a team to be feared in terms of skill, grit and its toughness.

Having Miller backstopping infront of an unbelievable Weber/Letang dand then Kronwall/White pairing would be absolutely insane, not to mention our center depth with 3 guys all able to play topline minutes and wow your with their skill.

God I so hope decertification happens.

Edited by frankgrimes, 19 December 2012 - 09:14 PM.

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#30 MulesWillFly93

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

I'm confused (as usual). If the NHLPA is decertified and there's no CBA, how does the NHL keep the cap in place? If they don't, why is Bettman going along with this UFA-free-for-all plan? Surely that would mean the end of his precious small markets, right? I get why the richer teams with a bigger draw would want this, but no way is this a good idea for everybody! Are a small group of owners bullying Bettman into doing what they want? This just doesn't seem like Bettman.

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#31 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

When more than a third of your playoff roster accounting for some 45 playoff points comes from free agency you sure as hell didn't draft/develop the team internally. What would you call it?

Note: HAHA, I didn't even read the rest of your post above where you said the only players you would keep are Datsyuk and (maybe) Helm. You don't give a damn what I'm saying, you've already admitted you'd piss away every other player that we've developed and buy new ones. Why am I even talking to you about this, apparently you not only don't mind if an owner buys a team, you've admitted you'd do it yourself given the opportunity. Classy dude, good old fashioned hockey at its best.


I do give a crap, but if all 700+ players become UFA's then every team will be buying players and why not try to get the best. This team has already proven it cannot hang with the elite talent in the NHL. Besides, given that if this happens it does not affect our yoots that are still in GRR and around the world, I'd still have a great farm system and draft class to bring up. I am just saying if the top 10 payers are available, I am offering them contracts before Zetterberg. Zetterberg may get an offer from me, but he wold not be my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th choice...I am going after Datsyuk, Malkin, Ovie, Crosby & Stamkos first...I like Kronwall, but there are at least 10 other defensmen that are better before I'd offer him a contract. I am not saying he wouldn't eventually be on my team, but my first choices would not be current Red Wings outside of Dats and Helm...

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#32 joesuffP

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:18 PM

A lot of players would be pissed and play for a different league

#33 kipwinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

The point is, only three UFA's were acquired in 2001 for that season, Hull was the only one with more than 10 playoff points and he didn't sign until August 2001 and had plaenty of offers worth MORE money. Robitaille was signed to replace Lapointe and again, he chose Detroit when LA didn't want him, Illitch did not have to outbid anyone for him and nobody even remembered Olausson when Detroit signed him in May of 01....the rest of the team was either already there for years or acquired by trades, which in no way equals buying a Cup by signing all the top UFA's in one year to win a Cup...

if you are basing your opinion that way for the 2002 Cup, then Illitch must have bought all his Cups because he added pieces each of those years as well via UFA...if that is the case then every team buys the Cup every year...in 2001-2002 Illitch didn't even come near what Minnesota did last July and what Illitch tried to do himself...The core of 2002 was built via the draft and trades and were all there in 97 and 98...but I guess since Holland happened to draft tons of future HOF's and gave up valuable assests for missing pieces and happened to be the destination of players who wanted to win, I guess they never really earned it then....

also, those three UFA's accounted for 33 playoff points, 18 from Hull. That is only 17% of the playoff scoring...77% of the playoff scoring (minus the other UFA's) were from drafted and acquired players....Unfortunate for your argument, the Wings more than likely still win the Cup without the 33 points from those three UFA's....


You know which Cup winning team wasn't comprised of more that 1/3 free agents, contributing a sizeable portion of it's playoff points? The 2007-08 Wings.

When again did Detroit buy a cup? Thef****** best owner in all of sports provided just what is needed to ice a great team i.e. the 2002 Wings, may I remind you that teams like Toronto, New York did have similar if not higher payrolls back then?

Would I kick out Z? Hell no but Malkin would be an absolute beast on Datsyuks line so Z might become a second line center but still the next captain of the team and a Wing for life.

I'd probably keep the following: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, Filpulla go extremely! hard after Miller and then try to sign Toews, Stamkos, Letang, Weber and bring in McGrattan and maybe 2 other in your face guys who can play too. This would easily become a team to be feared in terms of skill, grit and its toughness.

Having Miller backstopping infront of an unbelievable Weber/Letang dand then Kronwall/White pairing would be absolutely insane, not to mention our center depth with 3 guys all able to play topline minutes and wow your with their skill.

God I so hope decertification happens.


You've made your desire for "superteams" clear before. Again, that's good old fashioned hockey if I've ever seen it.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

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#34 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

When again did Detroit buy a cup? Thef****** best owner in all of sports provided just what is needed to ice a great team i.e. the 2002 Wings, may I remind you that teams like Toronto, New York did have similar if not higher payrolls back then?

Would I kick out Z? Hell no but Malkin would be an absolute beast on Datsyuks line so Z might become a second line center but still the next captain of the team and a Wing for life.

I'd probably keep the following: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, Filpulla go extremely! hard after Miller and then try to sign Toews, Stamkos, Letang, Weber and bring in McGrattan and maybe 2 other in your face guys who can play too. This would easily become a team to be feared in terms of skill, grit and its toughness.

Having Miller backstopping infront of an unbelievable Weber/Letang dand then Kronwall/White pairing would be absolutely insane, not to mention our center depth with 3 guys all able to play topline minutes and wow your with their skill.

God I so hope decertification happens.


This is what I am talking about...with the likes of Malkin/Ovie/Stamkos/Crosby available and willing to play anywhere, Zetterberg is not my first choice over any of those guys, but he would get tons of consideration after attempting to sign those guys...maybe if he were 5-7 years younger and not have a bad back...its all about winning Cups and as long as everyone is availavle and all teams will be in a bidding war for the top 20+ guys, I am going after them too! If I just re-signed the current Red Wings team, they would barely even make the playoffs...

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#35 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

You know which Cup winning team wasn't comprised of more that 1/3 free agents, contributing a sizeable portion of it's playoff points? The 2007-08 Wings.


If you want to compare teams and playoffs points, both years had 2 of the top 10 playoff scorers acquired by UFA...97 and 98 had zero in the top 10 yet the core of those two teams were still there in 2002 which would have won the Cup with out Hull, Robitaille and Olausson. The reason they won the Cup in 2002 was the core remained intact, they acquired what they needed via the trades, including probably the biggest reason, Dom Hasek. 16 wins, 92% SAV 1.86 GAA with 6 shoutout's including back to back in game 6 and 7 of the WCF. Without Hasek, they don't win, without Hull & Company they do...

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 December 2012 - 09:40 PM.

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#36 barabbas16

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

If you want to compare teams and playoffs points, both years had 2 of the top 10 playoff scorers acquired by UFA...97 and 98 had zero in the top 10 yet the core of those two teams were still there in 2002 which would have won the Cup with out Hull, Robitaille and Olausson. The reason they won the Cup in 2002 was the core remained intact, they acquired what they needed via the trades, including probably the biggest reason, Dom Hasek. 16 wins, 92% SAV 1.86 GAA with 6 shoutout's including back to back in game 6 and 7 of the WCF. Without Hasek, they don't win, without Hull & Company they do...


But, it's not really that easy, is it?

2002 WCF Game 3 - Detroit is down 1 - 0 going into the 3rd. Luc Robitaille ties it up in the 3rd. Fredrik Olausson wins it in OT. That was a seven game series. Prove to me that the Wings would have won the Cup if they had lost that game.

Edited by barabbas16, 19 December 2012 - 09:57 PM.


#37 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

Also, Kip, I agree Z was invaluable in 2008, but that was 4 years and a bad back ago. He is delining and cannot play like he used too. He would make a great leader and would get consideration only after about 20 other players (both FWD and D) were nabbed up before him...Honestly thinking about it, if I could have a first line of Ovie-Dats-Malkin then I would be very happy signing Z to center the 2nd line. Now I know that would be a very expensive first line, but I am sure they would be some of those players who would consider lower pay to play together...I would also try to land one of Suter/Weber before Kronwall. I also like Hedman better, but Kronwall would come in as 3rd choice. Also Howard would be my 3rd choice for a starter behind Miller and Thomas.

Players that would NOT be back for sure: Franzen, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Emmerton, Holmstrom, Quincey, Ericsson, Kindl. Those guys wouldn't even get a call from me.

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#38 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

But, it's not really that easy, is it?

2002 WCF Game 3 - Detroit is down 1 - 0 going into the 3rd. Luc Robitaille ties it up in the 3rd. Fredrik Olausson wins it in OT. That was a seven game series. Prove to me that the Wings would have won the Cup if they had lost that game.


No, its not that easy, but if not for Hasek, they would be down more than 1-0. Luc's goal could've easily been anyone else along with Olausson's. My point is, the 33 points those three put in that playoff means nothing if not for Hasek. My point was, it was more important of a move to trade for Hasek than to sign the UFA's, by saying Detroit bought the Cup he was pretty much saying if Holland doesn't sign those UFA's Detroit doesn't win the Cup. I believe that to be wrong. Luc's 9 points and Olausson's 6 points (albeit a couple of huge important points) could have been score by someone else...

He says 2008 was a team built to win the Cup because less UFA's scored points, but you bring up Luc's and Freddie's goals, how many huge goals did Sammy have in 2008? I think 3 of his 5 goals came in one game, so he was just as valuable a UFA in 08 as Robitaille was in 02, if not more valuable, yet he still argues that 02 was bought.

Bottom line is none of Detroit's Cups were bought. They were teams built and pieces added. A team that buys a championship buys the top UFA's and those UFA's go on to lead the team in points and are the reason said team wins....ala Miami Heat. Each of Detroit 4 recent Cups were won by a core built through the draft and via trades, supplemented by a couple of UFA signings that just happen to fit right into the cog...

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#39 barabbas16

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

No, its not that easy, but if not for Hasek, they would be down more than 1-0. Luc's goal could've easily been anyone else along with Olausson's. My point is, the 33 points those three put in that playoff means nothing if not for Hasek. My point was, it was more important of a move to trade for Hasek than to sign the UFA's, by saying Detroit bought the Cup he was pretty much saying if Holland doesn't sign those UFA's Detroit doesn't win the Cup. I believe that to be wrong. Luc's 9 points and Olausson's 6 points (albeit a couple of huge important points) could have been score by someone else...

He says 2008 was a team built to win the Cup because less UFA's scored points, but you bring up Luc's and Freddie's goals, how many huge goals did Sammy have in 2008? I think 3 of his 5 goals came in one game, so he was just as valuable a UFA in 08 as Robitaille was in 02, if not more valuable, yet he still argues that 02 was bought.

Bottom line is none of Detroit's Cups were bought. They were teams built and pieces added. A team that buys a championship buys the top UFA's and those UFA's go on to lead the team in points and are the reason said team wins....ala Miami Heat. Each of Detroit 4 recent Cups were won by a core built through the draft and via trades, supplemented by a couple of UFA signings that just happen to fit right into the cog...


Yeah, I read the posts. I could argue either way. My point really didn't have to do with that directly, though. You said that they would have won the Cup without Hull, Robitaille, Olausson, etc. But, you don't know that and can't prove it. You made a valiant effort to substantiate that position with statistics. But, there's a lot more to it that stats, otherwise the team with the best stats would win every year. Clutch scoring/defense/hitting/leadership/etc.

Brett Hull didn't have to score to affect play while he was on the ice. Of course the goaltender generally has more of an impact on the game than anyone else. He's on the ice the whole game. But..... take away two top six forwards and a top four defenseman from any team and that's not really the same team.... especially if you're talking about guys that are as big of a deal as Hull and Robitaille (seriously man, you're not talking about Sean Avery, Jason Williams, and Jiri Slegr here).

No one can say whether they would have won without them or not. Yeah, those goals COULD have been scored by someone else..... but they weren't. And you can't prove that (insert replacement player) would have done the same thing or been at the same place on the ice. I just think you're going too far in saying that they definitely would have won without those players.

#40 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

Yeah, I read the posts. I could argue either way. My point really didn't have to do with that directly, though. You said that they would have won the Cup without Hull, Robitaille, Olausson, etc. But, you don't know that and can't prove it. You made a valiant effort to substantiate that position with statistics. But, there's a lot more to it that stats, otherwise the team with the best stats would win every year. Clutch scoring/defense/hitting/leadership/etc.

Brett Hull didn't have to score to affect play while he was on the ice. Of course the goaltender generally has more of an impact on the game than anyone else. He's on the ice the whole game. But..... take away two top six forwards and a top four defenseman from any team and that's not really the same team.... especially if you're talking about guys that are as big of a deal as Hull and Robitaille (seriously man, you're not talking about Sean Avery, Jason Williams, and Jiri Slegr here).

No one can say whether they would have won without them or not. Yeah, those goals COULD have been scored by someone else..... but they weren't. And you can't prove that (insert replacement player) would have done the same thing or been at the same place on the ice. I just think you're going too far in saying that they definitely would have won without those players.


Point is and was, 2002's Cup was not bought buy Illitch, no more or less than 2008. UFA's in both years played significant roles and had big, clutch goals for them. The fact that Kip said the Illtich bought the Cup in 2002 is what got us going on the UFA discussion. Niether Cup was won directly because of the UFA acquistions, but because of the core drafted and acquired through trades. The UFA's made significant contributions and had cutch goals. But you can say that for every team that wins it every year. Miami Heat perfect example of a team "buying" and chamionship. Now if Hull and Robiataille would have come in and lead the team in scoring in the season and playoffs and Olausson was the second coming of Lidstrom that year, then maybe he'd have a bit of a point, but even then, this team was already built before the UFA's via the draft and trades from previous and far previous season's.

Nothing was "bought."


an example of Illtich trying to buy a Cup would be when he signed CuJo and Hatcher to ungodly contracts (at the time.) We see how that worked out. Even though Hatch got hurt and CuJo played very VERY well, it still didn't get us the Cup...

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 December 2012 - 11:43 PM.

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