50 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

Point is and was, 2002's Cup was not bought buy Illitch, no more or less than 2008. UFA's in both years played significant roles and had big, clutch goals for them. The fact that Kip said the Illtich bought the Cup in 2002 is what got us going on the UFA discussion. Niether Cup was won directly because of the UFA acquistions, but because of the core drafted and acquired through trades. The UFA's made significant contributions and had cutch goals. But you can say that for every team that wins it every year. Miami Heat perfect example of a team "buying" and chamionship. Now if Hull and Robiataille would have come in and lead the team in scoring in the season and playoffs and Olausson was the second coming of Lidstrom that year, then maybe he'd have a bit of a point, but even then, this team was already built before the UFA's via the draft and trades from previous and far previous season's.

Nothing was "bought."


an example of Illtich trying to buy a Cup would be when he signed CuJo and Hatcher to ungodly contracts (at the time.) We see how that worked out. Even though Hatch got hurt and CuJo played very VERY well, it still didn't get us the Cup...

No, what got us going is that you said you'd sell the heart and soul of our club because better players would be available, which I called classless and trying to buy a cup. You focused on the second part because you thought you could make a better argument. However, the fact remains that even if I were willing to concede (which I'm not) that Ilitch didn't buy one in 2002 (and try in other years), it still wouldn't change the fact that you seem to favor buying teams and would gladly sell off all the players who worked hard and stayed loyal to the club for a bunch of free agents. Remember, only one of us said that the only two players he'd keep were Datsyuk and (maybe) Helm. And so I'll say again, it's classless and cheap and I hope I never hear you say another thing about class, loyalty, or tradition in hockey because it clearly doesn't mean a single thing to you.

Edited by kipwinger, 20 December 2012 - 12:24 AM.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

I like the toughness, but I can't help but remind you that ALL players would be UFA's. The ONLY guys that I would keep that is on our team now is Datsyuk and possibly Helm. But as long as I still had a shot at the elite of the elite (including goalies) I am not going after any other current Red Wings until I have to.

Zetterberg has been great here, but as long as Crosby, Malkin, Ovie, Half the Edmonton team, Tavares, Stamkos and the likes are available, Zetterberg isn't on my team. I would only nab Kronwall if I could land Hedman along with Suter or Weber.

I know there is still a cap, so I do agree with the fact that I cannot have an all star team, but I love the idea of Malkin or Ovie playing top line with Datsyuk over Zetterberg.

While Zetterberg's offensive production has been declining, he is a part of our core. He is solid defensively. I'd definitely have him back. He can still put up respectable numbers. I believe he re-signed here for a bit of a discount a few years back. If I'm the GM of the Detroit Red Wings, Henrik Zetterberg is coming back here. He's shown devotion to the team, and the favor needs to be returned. Again, this whole "All players are UFAs" deal is all hypothetical, but I'd have Z back, despite his declining production.

I'd take the following back here:

Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Valtteri Filppula
Darren Helm
Jordin Tootoo
Niklas Kronwall
Brendan Smith

I wouldn't mind Ian White and Drew Miller back either.

[Barrie]

Here we go.....

Steve Yzerman - draft pick

Brendan Shanahan - acquired for Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau Oct. 1996

Sergei Fedorov - draft pick

Brett Hull - signed as UFA August 22, 2001 WELL after 29 other teams could have offered him a contract.

Nick Lidstrom - draft pick

Chris Chelios - acquired for Ander Eriksson and TWO 1st round draft picks March 1999

Tomas Holmstrom - draft pick

Igor Larionov - acquired for Ray Sheppard Oct. 1995 - re-acquired for Yan Golubovsky Dec. 2000

Luc Robitalle - signed as UFA July 5th 2001 for his beloved LA Kings didn't even want him back that year...

Darren McCarty - draft pick

Pavel Datsyuk - draft pick

Kirk Maltby - acquired for Dan McGillis March 1996

Boyd Devereaux - signed as UFA August 23rd 2000, well after 29 other could have offered him a contract...

Frederick Olausson - signed as UFA May 2001 out of Swiss League (who else wanted him? Noone.)

Steve Duschesne - signed as UFA Sept. 1999 well after 29 other teams had a chance to offer a contract...

Kris Draper - acquired for $1 (CAN) and future considerations June 1993

Mathieu Dandenault - draft pick

Dom Hasek - acquired for Slava Kozlov and a 1st round pick July 2001

Uwe Krupp - signed as UFA July 1998

Manny Legace - signed as UFA August 1999, claimed off waivers from VAN Oct. 1999

Jiri Slegr - acqured for Yuri Butsayev and a 3rd round draft pick

Jason Williams - signed as an undrafted UFA in Sept 2000....


that is the playoff roster, so show me exactly where Illtich BOUGHT the Cup...I see a team built through drafting, trading assests for assests and acquiring UFA's that everyone passed on, with the exception of MAYBE Robitaille and he didn't have to outbid ANY of the other teams for ANY of the UFA's he signed...and remember they had justlost LaPointe to UFA so they needed to replace his production and they did so 4 days after 29 other teams could have thrown big bucks as Luc....

anyone who says Illitch bought that 02 Cup hasn't paid any attention to how the Yankees or Heat operate....If somehow the Wild pull off a Cup win this year (or when they come back) you can accuse them of buying a Cup...

Right, as I've said to Maple Leaf fans who say the Wings bought the Cup in 2002, the Leafs were the most bought team in the League that year.

[Barrie]

But to comment on the original post, if this happened where everyone was a UFA, it would take a month or more to get everything in order, then you'd have to have a training camp.

If this is going to court NOW (late December), lets face it, we're not having a season. Also, even if they got something signed soon (with no scheduled talks), how are they going to have a proper training camp? Again I say, we're not having a season.

Bettman and the Owners with their take it or leave it approach, are a complete embarrassment. Personally I think they're scared to play. It's safer for them to continue with the lockout, because they won't have to realize the consequences of their actions until next October.

[frankgrimes]

Well they are playing with fire and don't even realize it. Once sponsors are getting rightfully pissed off maybe then the whole leaguer will come down to planet earth and get a dose of reality.

How about 0,.3 instead of 3.3 ?!

[Wing Across The Pond]

This is what I am talking about...with the likes of Malkin/Ovie/Stamkos/Crosby available and willing to play anywhere, Zetterberg is not my first choice over any of those guys, but he would get tons of consideration after attempting to sign those guys...maybe if he were 5-7 years younger and not have a bad back...its all about winning Cups and as long as everyone is availavle and all teams will be in a bidding war for the top 20+ guys, I am going after them too! If I just re-signed the current Red Wings team, they would barely even make the playoffs...

And whilst you overlook a guy you've drafted, developed, seen fit to make your next captain (most likely) and DON'T look to re-sign him before people elsewhere, what does that say to the guy who's now being overlooked for someone else? He goes back to Sweden and we don't see him again. Why would he want to play for you if you don't put the effort in to sign him before a younger guy from another team? After all he's the one who's put in all the hard work over the years, won cups here, helped develop other players in one way or another. I think that's the point in signing him way before players like Stamkos or Crosby. Because you know what? Their respective teams will do the same thing. Do you think a team like Tampa would try going after Crosby before St. Louis? Because I don't. Maybe some will call it loyalty, others will see it as a way of not pissing off/insulting the guys who've given their career to a team only to overlook them the FIRST chance you get.

[Wing Across The Pond]

In the minuscule chance that the NHL did go through with this, it's not as if every player would be released from their current team and the big market teams would be able to stack up on all the star players. I'm sure there would be some time period where every team has the opportunity to negotiate a new deal with every player on their current roster. Does anyone really think if this were to happen that every team would have equal opportunity to sign Crosby, Stamkos, Weber, etc.. Not a chance.. I'm sure most teams would remain the same but it would give owners / general managers the opportunity to negotiate better deals with their players..

Here's the key though...void & unenforceable. If there was a period set up for teams to negotiate with their former players, not current because that whole void & unenforceable thing, said former player would have to make that choice, similar to a player making the decision to negotiate with one team only at the start of their regular UFA period. There is no contract, exclusivity, connection, etc. from a legal standpoint.

IF all 700+ players became UFA's I would hope that the new CBA would have a stipulation that the team they belong(ed) to has first crack at re-siging the players. I guess that would be a true UFA, but at least it would save some of the smaller franchises from folding....and it would keep Detroit on the map...

As ogreslayer mentioned, there would be no re-signing phase as there were technically no contracts. If they had said 'contracts will be terminated' then fine. But they're not, they're VOID. Which, like a warrantee for something, becomes non-existent when it becomes VOID. The league simply wouldn't acknowledge that they existed, hence the 'unenforceable' bit. Most players would still sign for their clubs I'd imagine as they don't want to relocate/love the team/etc, etc but there is absolutely no reason why any team couldn't go after Crosby, Stamkos, Weber, Miller, etc, etc, etc

EDIT: Not to mention, they wouldn't have gone through all of this (especially if it comes to making all players UFAs) just to let it all go back to how it was before. The league would most likely WANT a reshuffle to show that they're the ones calling the shots. If there is no effect on the players who opposed them then we'll keep seeing things like this. It's like filing for divorce, WINNING, and then saying 'don't worry you can have the house actually, I don't mind...'

Edited by Wing Across The Pond, 23 December 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[luvmnger]

wow...this thread got off topic fast!
if this all happened....other teams will go after the "free to good home" players.

the solid, family oriented, tired of moving, niche players, that want to stay...will.
the hired guns, wash outs, unloved, and single guys will be up for auction.
the players will call their own shots....all 30 teams call, one gets them.

i think z stays....brunner comes along with z, pav stays, helm is actually the wild card.

a whole lot of teams will beg him to join, as well as kronwall. they fill seats with their level of excitement.

who doesnt love the top 10 hits by kron? ( except the guys hit...of course.)

ovechkin will move....stamkos, probably, st.louis, maybe. but now were into chemistry, friends, and surroundings playing a big part.

if we thought the parise/suter situation was nuts...wait for this one.

[achildr1]

It won't happen. If for some wild reason it did, this is the Detroit Red Wings team I want:

Benn-Datsyuk-Zetterberg
Clowe-Filppula-Clarkson
Glencross-Helm-Neil
Beleskey-Chipchura-Tootoo
-McGrattan

Girardi-Enstrom
Kronwall-White
Bickel-Smith

Howard
Biron

This is your dream team? Tells me a couple things...you haven't been truly happy as a hockey fan since the height of dead puck era/Avs-Wings rivalry hockey (ps...I haven't really been either). Too many big guys on that team to suggest otherwise. Also, you need to dream bigger bro...if every player in the NHL were FA's, I'd imagine our team would look better than this.

[The Axe]

We need better defensemen

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

This is your dream team? Tells me a couple things...you haven't been truly happy as a hockey fan since the height of dead puck era/Avs-Wings rivalry hockey (ps...I haven't really been either). Too many big guys on that team to suggest otherwise. Also, you need to dream bigger bro...if every player in the NHL were FA's, I'd imagine our team would look better than this.

I loved the teams from the late 90's. The teams from the late 90's were so well-rounded, which is why they had the success that they did. Hard to go against our 2002 team, too. I was not happy at all with the teams from the first few years after the 2004/2005 lockout (2005/06 and 2006/07). In my opinion, our most well-rounded team since the lockout has been our 2008 team. I really liked that team. I want a healthy balance of finesse and snarl.

I doubt we'd be able to get Stamkos, Selanne, and Malkin here. That is why the team I put looks the way it does. Personally, I think that team is definitely a playoff team.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 27 December 2012 - 03:03 AM.