1995 vs 2009 Red Wings squads

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The Red Wings won their series against Chicago in five games and had to turn around and play a back-to-back in the finals. When has that ever happened?

[Guest The Axe]

Oh, boy. Crymson vs. Axe, round #174.

Sorry, but ive learned over the years that winning the stanley cup requires as much luck with injury avoidance as it does skill. Shanny and Yzerman hurt their ankles and bam- 1st round exit to the fricking Kings.

[Jedi 1,865]

Thats the worst copout I have ever heard. In the history of the NHL, the finals have never been delayed a week to allow players to heal.

It wasn't so much that the league would have given them an extra week to heal solely for the purpose of healing, it was the fact that the league was backed into a scheduling corner with NBC for games 1 & 2 of the finals (VS aired games 3 & 4). That week was NBC's Sweeps week, as well as the first week that Conan O'Brien hosted The Tonight Show, taking over from Jay Leno. NBC had invested FAR too heavily in that one week to have to bump programming mid-week so the NHL could get two broadcasts in. So the NHL's choice was to either schedule games 1 & 2 for Saturday & Sunday, or face an entire week off, which could be harmful to viewership of the finals with so much time off between series.

People also forget that Pittsburgh eliminated Carolina in the ECF on May 26th, whereas Detroit finished Chicago in the WCF on May 27th. So the Penguins really only had one day of rest more than Detroit (with game 1 of the SCF starting on May 30th). One extra day would have helped, I'm sure, but I wouldn't consider it back-breaking, by any stretch. Especially since we won games 1 & 2 anyway...

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Conan>NHL. I laugh...but it really happened.

Besides, Uncle Gary saw the upside and could smell the ratings available with a Saturday/Sunday start to the '09 SCF.

The players be damned.

[Guest Crymson]

Thats the worst copout I have ever heard. In the history of the NHL, the finals have never been delayed a week to allow players to heal.

I see you chose to ignore the much more important segment of my post in favor of simply responding to the last sentence. Why?

[Nightfall 871]

I see you chose to ignore the much more important segment of my post in favor of simply responding to the last sentence. Why?

My statement of "The worst copout" was in regards to your entire post. Not just the last sentence.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

I hate these excuses.

Our team overcame a lot to make it that far, but should have been able to use home ice advantage to win game 7 somehow. Instead, the Wings didn't start playing game 7 until the third period.

Of course injuries mattered, but that's a part of playoff hockey. No one said winning the Cup was easy.

The Pens had to overcome a lot of adversity too, being down 2-0 and then 3-2, and having to play on the road in game 7. No team had won a game 7 in the Finals on the road in almost 40 years prior to that.

[Guest Crymson]

My statement of "The worst copout" was in regards to your entire post. Not just the last sentence.

Ah, so injuries to nearly all of a team's star players matters not at all. Something tells me you'd be saying differently had the Wings won while Malkin was injured.

[Guest The Axe]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Crymson" data-cid="2336990" data-time="1356747201"><p>

<br />

Ah, so injuries to nearly all of a team's star players matters not at all. Something tells me you'd be saying differently had the Wings won while Malkin was injured.</p></blockquote>

It makes a lot of difference, but it does the same to each team.

[Nightfall 871]

Ah, so injuries to nearly all of a team's star players matters not at all. Something tells me you'd be saying differently had the Wings won while Malkin was injured.

Using it as an excuse in the SCF is. Every team is banged up. Its a war of attrition. I give the Pens full marks for winning game 6 and game 7 of that series and winning the cup. To say that they won because of Bettman, the schedule, poor health, luck, and so on is really just a cop out. The Wings were beaten fair and square. To not give the Pens credit is a show of poor sportsmanship IMHO.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I hate these excuses.

Our team overcame a lot to make it that far, but should have been able to use home ice advantage to win game 7 somehow. Instead, the Wings didn't start playing game 7 until the third period.

Of course injuries mattered, but that's a part of playoff hockey. No one said winning the Cup was easy.

The Pens had to overcome a lot of adversity too, being down 2-0 and then 3-2, and having to play on the road in game 7. No team had won a game 7 in the Finals on the road in almost 40 years prior to that.

This.

People can talk about injuries, but that's the game. The Wings were fortunate in 2008 regarding injuries and played some badly injured opponents.

Thems the breaks.

[Guest irishock]

Also fortunate we didn't have to face Anaheim or San Jose in 2008.

Pens were lucky they didn't have to see Boston right after going 7 games with Washington.

Edited December 29, 2012 by irishock

[Nev 1,085]

96>95>09

Really, we over-achieved in 2009. We sucked through most of the regular season, defence and goaltending were horrible and it was only the much-maligned Hossa's goals that saved us on a nightly basis. Even in the playoffs we didn't play that well as a team, and it was only Ozzie returning to 2008 form that carried us to the finals.

Then in the finals, we were actually outplayed in 6 of the 7 games, which given our injury list is no surprise. Just to recap for everyone

Datsyuk - broken foot

Hossa - torn rotator cuff

Clearly - double groin tear

Ericsson - emergency appendectomy, came back after 1 game

Rafalski - separated shoulder AND herniated disc

Lidstrom - emergency ******** save, came back after 1 game

Kopecky - out with broken jaw

Lilja - out with broken brain

Holmstrom - no specific injury, but so badly beat up he was contemplating retirement

Now compare that to our 2008 injury list which was just Filpulla (playing with strained knee ligaments). Then look what happened in 2007 when Schneider and Kronwall both went down. Babcock admitted that he felt physically sick when he knew Schneider was done. Its also telling that Babs, Mr Hard-ass, Mr Win-itdoesn'tmatterhowjustwin, spoke with pride about the team after they lost in 2009. It was totally unBabcockian, to praise a team that had just blown game 7 at how to win the cup. Because he knew, they had over-acheived getting that far, and once Fleury had stopped giving us 1 or 2 softies per game, we had no chance.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Deserved to win that series? lol. Tell me, do you think that Malkin would have scored goals had he had Datsyuk, the world's best defensive forward and in the midst of the best season of his career, riding him the entire series? Yeah, probably not. Do you think that the Wings might have scored more goals with a healthy Datsyuk, Hossa, Holmstrom, Franzen, Cleary, Lidstrom, and Rafalski? Yeah, I think so.

Had the Wings that extra week to heal, the series would have been a cakewalk.

Dead horse I know, but if Malkin had been suspended for Game 3 like he was supposed to be (until Uncle Gary recinded the instigator penalty citing that "the game needs its stars to play") then Malkin wouldn't had been able to factor in to ALL the goals (except the EN)

If Detroit goes up 3 games to ZERO in that series, Detroit wins back-back Cups...Again! But Uncle Gary couldn't have that happen now could he?

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Dead horse I know, but if Malkin had been suspended for Game 3 like he was supposed to be (until Uncle Gary recinded the instigator penalty citing that "the game needs its stars to play") then Malkin wouldn't had been able to factor in to ALL the goals (except the EN)

If Detroit goes up 3 games to ZERO in that series, Detroit wins back-back Cups...Again! But Uncle Gary couldn't have that happen now could he?

Malkin wrestled with Zetterberg at the end of game 5, from what I remember. Not game 2.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Malkin wrestled with Zetterberg at the end of game 5, from what I remember. Not game 2.

Game 2...and Malkin was doing more than wrestling....

Nah...that was not instagating a fight with Hank...f*** you Bettman!

Edited December 30, 2012 by LeftWinger

[Guest RedWingsDad]

I started watching the Wings back in 95. Never even watched hockey before that. That sweep was sickening because I was a new fan. So maybe it holds a bit more importance to me than the 2009 finals did. In 2009 the Pens really did deserve to win that series. They held the Wings to one goal in each of the final two games. The 1995 team was better IMHO and the 1995 series hurt the worst to me.

In the end, the better team won both series thats for sure. NJ really did dominate the Wings in 95, but the Pens found a way to get it done in 2009. Gotta give them credit for that. It wasn't like the Wings just rolled over and died in either of those series. They had injuries or were just beat by a better team.

Too many men on the ice. No carry over penalty on Malkin. Pen's had help.

Edit: LeftWinger beat me to the Malkin comment.I'll post the other:

Edit 2: Can't figure out how to embed youtube videos.

Edited December 30, 2012 by RedWingsDad

[Nightfall 871]

Too many men on the ice. No carry over penalty on Malkin. Pen's had help.

Edit: LeftWinger beat me to the Malkin comment.I'll post the other:

Edit 2: Can't figure out how to embed youtube videos.

So referee error on a power play they never scored on?

Sorry, but I guess I have to agree to disagree. The Pens were not handed the cup by anyone but the Wings themselves. The Wings had that series in the bag at 3-2 and they couldn't score more than 1 goal each of the last two games. The Pens deserved the cup in 2009 and the won it fair and square. IMHO, the ultimate copout in sports is to say that your team had won a championship, but was robbed by the refs, league, bad luck, etc. That doesn't happen in a 7 game series in the NHL. The better team always wins.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Nightfall

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

So referee error on a power play they never scored on?

Sorry, but I guess I have to agree to disagree. The Pens were not handed the cup by anyone but the Wings themselves. The Wings had that series in the bag at 3-2 and they couldn't score more than 1 goal each of the last two games. The Pens deserved the cup in 2009 and the won it fair and square. IMHO, the ultimate copout in sports is to say that your team had won a championship, but was robbed by the refs, league, bad luck, etc. That doesn't happen in a 7 game series in the NHL. The better team always wins.

Agreed.

Though I've been through this argument before and not everyone sees it that way. When the Wings win I never hear it the other way from people here, that they got help on a few calls, that they were fortunate because the other team was so injured.

Like how this should've been a penalty shot in game 1:

over the course of a 7 game series most of the calls even out, and the injuries are just part of the game.

@RedWingsDad you should be able to just paste the link and it will embed the link automatically.

[Nev 1,085]

FWIW, I thought the 2008 finals were horrifically reffed in favour of the Pens, and we won that one, so that can't be put down to sour grapes. Pens fans liked to point out how the total PIMs were even that series, ignoring how they racked them up when they started gooning the joint out after being blown away in games 1 + 2. Not to mention Gary Roberts cowardly sucker punch on Franzen, trying to start a fight with Datsyuk, the blatant trip on Dats with 10 seconds to go which led directly to that last second chance, Hal Gill committing Interference and/or Holding on every single shift, the way Detroit defencemen found themselves repeatedly without sticks when the Pens were on the PP.....I could go on, but suffice it to say the interview by Ozzie/McCarty after they won was quite telling.

As for the too many men in '09, what really got me was that once the refs realised, they didn't blow the whistle, they told the 6th man to get off the ice. No wonder Ilitch didn't want to shake Bettmans hand after game 7.

[Guest Johnz96]

FWIW, I thought the 2008 finals were horrifically reffed in favour of the Pens, and we won that one, so that can't be put down to sour grapes. Pens fans liked to point out how the total PIMs were even that series, ignoring how they racked them up when they started gooning the joint out after being blown away in games 1 + 2. Not to mention Gary Roberts cowardly sucker punch on Franzen, trying to start a fight with Datsyuk, the blatant trip on Dats with 10 seconds to go which led directly to that last second chance, Hal Gill committing Interference and/or Holding on every single shift, the way Detroit defencemen found themselves repeatedly without sticks when the Pens were on the PP.....I could go on, but suffice it to say the interview by Ozzie/McCarty after they won was quite telling.

As for the too many men in '09, what really got me was that once the refs realised, they didn't blow the whistle, they told the 6th man to get off the ice. No wonder Ilitch didn't want to shake Bettmans hand after game 7.

Up until the SCF in 09 obstruction was called throughout the playoffs. The refs were instructed to put away the whistles for the finals and the Prens took advantage of it (especially Gill)

Especially with Hossa on the team the Wings were stocked and considered runaway favorites to win the Cup when they signed Hossa. As Bettman is well aware, restricting talent and skill gives weaker teams a better chance of winning.

Regardless, we probably would have won if Babcock didn't rely so much on an injured and obviously ineffective Hossa.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Johnz96

[Guest Crymson]

So referee error on a power play they never scored on?

Sorry, but I guess I have to agree to disagree. The Pens were not handed the cup by anyone but the Wings themselves. The Wings had that series in the bag at 3-2 and they couldn't score more than 1 goal each of the last two games. The Pens deserved the cup in 2009 and the won it fair and square. IMHO, the ultimate copout in sports is to say that your team had won a championship, but was robbed by the refs, league, bad luck, etc. That doesn't happen in a 7 game series in the NHL. The better team always wins.

The Penguins were not on a power play when they had too many men on the ice. It was at a vital juncture early in game 3.

And lol @ the "the better team always wins" argument. OK, fine, take L.A.'s Cup-winning team and remove Quick, Brown, Doughty, Richards and Carter to freak injuries. Were the Devils to win under those circumstances, would they have been the better team? Your argument makes literally no sense. It has no anchor in reality.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The Penguins were not on a power play when they had too many men on the ice. It was at a vital juncture early in game 3.

And lol @ the "the better team always wins" argument. OK, fine, take L.A.'s Cup-winning team and remove Quick, Brown, Doughty, Richards and Carter to freak injuries. Were the Devils to win under those circumstances, would they have been the better team? Your argument makes literally no sense. It has no anchor in reality.

lol @ you thinking his argument has no anchor in reality when it is based on playing the actual games. Yours on the other hand has little anchor in reality as it is the one based primarily on your own opinion of who is better. So since his actually happened, it literally makes a lot of sense.

In your fictional example, yes the Devils were the better team. Because they won. On the ice. In reality. Where the game is actually played. As to why they won, of course injuries play a factor. Just like they do when the Wings win. It seems like the Kings would've been better if they were healthy, but who knows? We'll never know because that's not what happened. What we do know was the Devils won.

The Stanley Cup isn't won by who has the best team on paper or on your theories as to who is better. It's won on the ice.

[Guest The Axe]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="LeftWinger" data-cid="2337044" data-time="1356822168"><p>

Dead horse I know, but if Malkin had been suspended for Game 3 like he was supposed to be (until Uncle Gary recinded the instigator penalty citing that "the game needs its stars to play") then Malkin wouldn't had been able to factor in to ALL the goals (except the EN)<br />

<br />

If Detroit goes up 3 games to ZERO in that series, Detroit wins back-back Cups...Again! But Uncle Gary couldn't have that happen now could he?</p></blockquote>

Parity is his goal. Not fairness.

[Nev 1,085]

Did you know in 2009 Gill had just 3 minors in 24 games? The following season, playing for Montreal against Pittsburgh, he had 7 in 7 games - all for obstruction, interference or holding. Its hard not to be paranoid when that kind of stuff happens.

Up until the SCF in 09 obstruction was called throughout the playoffs. The refs were instructed to put away the whistles for the finals and the Prens took advantage of it (especially Gill)