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#21 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:19 AM

Ryan Kesler
Sidney Crosby
Max Lapierre
Brad Marchand
Alexander Semin
Max Talbot
Devin Setoguchi
Joe Thornton
Alex Burrows
Sedin sisters
Dustin Brown
P.K. Subban
Joe Pavelski
Patrick Kaleta
Mike Ribeiro

Franzen does too, although not nearly as often as those mentioned above. Tootoo used to one of the worst, but has cut down on the diving in the last few years. It would be just plain inaccurate to say he doesn't do it at all anymore, though. Samuelsson needs to be mentioned, as well.

There needs to be a return of suspensions handed out for blatant embellishment and diving.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 02 January 2013 - 06:21 AM.

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#22 Learn2LuvIt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

Yes the league should crack down on divers, but it happens so fast I don't know that you can rely on refs to handle it in games.  

 

I think the best way is to have a video official reviewing questionable plays after a game.  The on ice refs could even let them know which plays they want looked at it. 

 

But even then only the most extreme cases will get punished.  The stick not actually hitting Carcillo's face.  Kesler's ridiculous flop. 

 

Fining those guys even after games though should help.  They embarrass the refs and league with their antics, so they should be publicly embarrassed too. 

I agree something needs to be done.  However, the post-game analysis by the refs I'm not so sure about.  Except in cases where major known injury inducing moves/plays are being reviewed by the league office for disciplinary action, I don't believe post game analysis of diving wouldn't result in the desired effect.  For one, infractions and penalties must apply to the current game being played, not future games or penalties (e.g. suspensions, fines, etc...).  In reality, it's all moot after the game is completed. 

For example, take a huge playoff game 7.  Player on Team A dives and gets a penalty called on Team B for a phantom penalty.  Team A scores on the power play and wins the game and series.  How would that post game ref analysis help the team that lost?    Series is over...there is no going back and replaying that game.  The point is always to get the call right regardless of time or method taken to do so during the game (i.e. NFL fumble or reception reviews). 

In addition, I don't think the "public shaming" would be that big of deal to the players as suggested.  I've heard players talk about "getting away" with hits/calls/embellishments as if it were a thing of bravado....especially when the plays result in a victory or a goal.  As in...."I did everything in my power to help my team win....did it for the team."  For example, players who tenaciously argue that they didn't have a "kicking motion" for a goal that went off their skate.  Or jamming at puck that is under a goalie and play is whistled dead?  Why aren't they shamed or embarrassed about breaking the rules on these plays?

Maybe it's because diving is viewed as soooo "bush league" and against the "code", I don't know.  I just know that post game penalties/fines/suspensions don't help a team that suffered a loss due to the call.  The penalties on divers must apply to the current game.  Video review by the War Room in Toronto (that reviews goal calls) could be an option though.


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#23 Johnz96

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

I would implement a rule in which teams can send the NHL video of obvious dives by their opponents after the game. Offenders would be automatically suspended for the next game and the number of games doubles with each subsequent offence.
 

 

 

I agree something needs to be done.  However, the post-game analysis by the refs I'm not so sure about.  Except in cases where major known injury inducing moves/plays are being reviewed by the league office for disciplinary action, I don't believe post game analysis of diving wouldn't result in the desired effect.  For one, infractions and penalties must apply to the current game being played, not future games or penalties (e.g. suspensions, fines, etc...).  In reality, it's all moot after the game is completed. 

For example, take a huge playoff game 7.  Player on Team A dives and gets a penalty called on Team B for a phantom penalty.  Team A scores on the power play and wins the game and series.  How would that post game ref analysis help the team that lost?    Series is over...there is no going back and replaying that game.  The point is always to get the call right regardless of time or method taken to do so during the game (i.e. NFL fumble or reception reviews). 

In addition, I don't think the "public shaming" would be that big of deal to the players as suggested.  I've heard players talk about "getting away" with hits/calls/embellishments as if it were a thing of bravado....especially when the plays result in a victory or a goal.  As in...."I did everything in my power to help my team win....did it for the team."  For example, players who tenaciously argue that they didn't have a "kicking motion" for a goal that went off their skate.  Or jamming at puck that is under a goalie and play is whistled dead?  Why aren't they shamed or embarrassed about breaking the rules on these plays?

Maybe it's because diving is viewed as soooo "bush league" and against the "code", I don't know.  I just know that post game penalties/fines/suspensions don't help a team that suffered a loss due to the call.  The penalties on divers must apply to the current game.  Video review by the War Room in Toronto (that reviews goal calls) could be an option though.
.

 

The penalties don't have to apply to the current game as it is hard to determine without video aid if a player is actually diving or not. If they get suspended for diving, divers will stop diving, solving the problem


Edited by Johnz96, 02 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.


#24 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:49 PM

I agree something needs to be done.  However, the post-game analysis by the refs I'm not so sure about.  Except in cases where major known injury inducing moves/plays are being reviewed by the league office for disciplinary action, I don't believe post game analysis of diving wouldn't result in the desired effect.  For one, infractions and penalties must apply to the current game being played, not future games or penalties (e.g. suspensions, fines, etc...).  In reality, it's all moot after the game is completed. 

For example, take a huge playoff game 7.  Player on Team A dives and gets a penalty called on Team B for a phantom penalty.  Team A scores on the power play and wins the game and series.  How would that post game ref analysis help the team that lost?    Series is over...there is no going back and replaying that game.  The point is always to get the call right regardless of time or method taken to do so during the game (i.e. NFL fumble or reception reviews). 

In addition, I don't think the "public shaming" would be that big of deal to the players as suggested.  I've heard players talk about "getting away" with hits/calls/embellishments as if it were a thing of bravado....especially when the plays result in a victory or a goal.  As in...."I did everything in my power to help my team win....did it for the team."  For example, players who tenaciously argue that they didn't have a "kicking motion" for a goal that went off their skate.  Or jamming at puck that is under a goalie and play is whistled dead?  Why aren't they shamed or embarrassed about breaking the rules on these plays?

Maybe it's because diving is viewed as soooo "bush league" and against the "code", I don't know.  I just know that post game penalties/fines/suspensions don't help a team that suffered a loss due to the call.  The penalties on divers must apply to the current game.  Video review by the War Room in Toronto (that reviews goal calls) could be an option though.

I agree with what you're saying, but as Johnz96 points out, it's just too hard to determine during game play at times. 

 

So it's certainly not a perfect solution, but hitting them with increasing fines after each infraction and then a suspension seems like it could help.  And the video review would make it a lot harder to argue that it wasn't a dive because it wasn't based on some refs viewpoint at the time. 

 

Shanny could even release one of his videos reviewing the dive and stating the fine to that player.  



#25 Learn2LuvIt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

I would implement a rule in which teams can send the NHL video of obvious dives by their opponents after the game. Offenders would be automatically suspended for the next game and the number of games doubles with each subsequent offence.
 

 

 

 

The penalties don't have to apply to the current game as it is hard to determine without video aid if a player is actually diving or not. If they get suspended for diving, divers will stop diving, solving the problem

Maybe...maybe not.  I don't think so though.  Hasn't stopped players from taking head shots.  Hasn't stopped players from leaving their feet on hits.  Hasn't stopped serious boarding infractions.  BTW....still does nothing to get the call right on the spot.  I believe in any officiating the ultimate goal has to be to get the call right at that time at least the NFL believes so as they will take as much time needed for refs to get the call right before play proceeds.  Is it perfect, no, but it's a lot better than it was without on-field video review.  Getting the call right at that time is the key.  How is a post game video or player penalty any conciliation to a team that just lost a playoff series due to this??  "Don't worry guys...we're sending a video to the league about that dive....so hopefully the player will get a suspension or fine...season over and have a great summer!".  Ask any player this question..."Game 7 of a playoff series, late in the third period, the game is tied....would you risk a one/two game suspension to get a two minute power play?"  I bet every player say Yes!

Also, do you know how many "videos" the league office would get daily....OMG, every team would send multiple videos of the other teams players for even the slightest of questionable embellishments for every game in hopes that they actually may get an opposing player penalized which could be a future advantage ("squeaky wheel gets the grease"). 

Also, I think goalies are the biggest violators embellishment of contact....this has been accepted for years...why no outrage on this (kind of like punters in the NFL).


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#26 Johnz96

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

Maybe...maybe not.  I don't think so though.  Hasn't stopped players from taking head shots.  Hasn't stopped players from leaving their feet on hits.  Hasn't stopped serious boarding infractions.  BTW....still does nothing to get the call right on the spot.  I believe in any officiating the ultimate goal has to be to get the call right at that time at least the NFL believes so as they will take as much time needed for refs to get the call right before play proceeds.  Is it perfect, no, but it's a lot better than it was without on-field video review.  Getting the call right at that time is the key.  How is a post game video or player penalty any conciliation to a team that just lost a playoff series due to this??  "Don't worry guys...we're sending a video to the league about that dive....so hopefully the player will get a suspension or fine...season over and have a great summer!".  Ask any player this question..."Game 7 of a playoff series, late in the third period, the game is tied....would you risk a one/two game suspension to get a two minute power play?"  I bet every player say Yes!

Also, do you know how many "videos" the league office would get daily....OMG, every team would send multiple videos of the other teams players for even the slightest of questionable embellishments for every game in hopes that they actually may get an opposing player penalized which could be a future advantage ("squeaky wheel gets the grease"). 

Also, I think goalies are the biggest violators embellishment of contact....this has been accepted for years...why no outrage on this (kind of like punters in the NFL).

I agree with you but the NHL has long ago put an emphasis on shortening the time it takes to play a game. I think getting all the calls right whatever the means should be a priority but if they used video replay to get all the calls right would extend the running time of a game considerably. If it were up to me, I would do it regardless.



#27 The Axe

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:21 PM

Tootoo isnt scaring anyone.

#28 Motown4013

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:05 PM

Tootoo isnt scaring anyone.

Tell him that....i betcha he proves you wrong!


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#29 nosyt612

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

I think one of the biggest problems with it is almost every diving call is paired up with the opposing teams original call wether it be tripping or something else.  And maybe only one in 20 dives ever get called, so its virtually a risk free exercise, most likely you're going to receive a power play but at worse it'll be 4 on 4.  They should change it so that even if there is an original penalty that should be called the dive negates it, or change diving to a double minor so the other team still gets a power play after.



#30 RedWingsDad

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

I think one of the biggest problems with it is almost every diving call is paired up with the opposing teams original call wether it be tripping or something else.  And maybe only one in 20 dives ever get called, so its virtually a risk free exercise, most likely you're going to receive a power play but at worse it'll be 4 on 4.  They should change it so that even if there is an original penalty that should be called the dive negates it, or change diving to a double minor so the other team still gets a power play after.

 

This. Make it hurt your team to dive and watch it mostly vanish from the game over night.


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#31 Johnz96

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

This. Make it hurt your team to dive and watch it mostly vanish from the game over night.

But the problem with that is that it is hard to determine if a dive is actually dive without replays. Ideally all questionable calls should be reviewed but the NHL believes that would take too much time.
If they are unwilling to review them during the game then they should be reviewed after and divers should be punished severely (suspensions) to prevent them from doing it again (or as much)



#32 kipwinger

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:06 PM

Tootoo isnt scaring anyone.

 

 

I agree, he's not intimidating.  But he's dirty enough to make people pay for weak s*** like diving.  Nobody was scared of Chelios either but you didn't get anything free when that guy was on the ice. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#33 The Axe

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

Good point. I just hunger for the Kocur type of problem solving. Id rather have a jaw breaker than a cheapshot taker/knee on knee specialist.

#34 irishock

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:09 PM


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#35 kipwinger

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

 

 

I love watching this and then remembering Kessler's interview about how Kronwall needs to answer the bell when he hits guys.  Obviously he's very concerned with playing old time hockey.  What a clown! 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#36 LeftWinger

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:03 AM

Start calling the diving. period. They rarely call it in todays game, yet when they do, they ALWAYS call the other guy for an infraction as well. What good is it calling a dive, when it just makes the teams even strength anyhow? Call the dive when its a dive, do not call any other penalty.  Start calling these dive's and making the team short handed, maybe it will stop....or if yoiu have to call the other guy for something, give the diver a double minor...


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#37 LeftWinger

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:08 AM

 

 

:lol: at :26 it looks like the LA King is telling Kesler to sit in the box so he can jack off instead of play hockey, since it's obvious Kesler isn't here to play hockey.  Am I the only one that is embarassed to call Kelser a MIchigan native?


Edited by LeftWinger, 04 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

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#38 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

:lol: at :26 it looks like the LA King is telling Kesler to sit in the box so he can jack off instead of play hockey, since it's obvious Kesler isn't here to play hockey.  Am I the only one that is embarassed to call Kelser a MIchigan native?

 

That's Doughty.  :D

 

I used to like Kesler a few seasons ago and hoped he'd straighten out the antics as he got older.  Unfortunately in Vancouver he's gone the wrong way.  Maybe if he ever got on a team without that climate of diving he'd straighten up.  There's a lot to like about his game otherwise. 



#39 The Axe

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="haroldsnepsts" data-cid="2337583" data-time="1357318894"><p>
 <br />
That's Doughty.  :D<br />
 <br />
I used to like Kesler a few seasons ago and hoped he'd straighten out the antics as he got older.  Unfortunately in Vancouver he's gone the wrong way.  Maybe if he ever got on a team without that climate of diving he'd straighten up.  There's a lot to like about his game otherwise. </p></blockquote>

The Kings do clutch and grab a lot, but thats how bettman wants it. Get used to it, or go home.

#40 55fan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

Start calling the diving. period. They rarely call it in todays game, yet when they do, they ALWAYS call the other guy for an infraction as well. What good is it calling a dive, when it just makes the teams even strength anyhow? Call the dive when its a dive, do not call any other penalty.  Start calling these dive's and making the team short handed, maybe it will stop....or if yoiu have to call the other guy for something, give the diver a double minor...

I can see where the other team needs to be penalized if there was an actual foul and the diver embellished it.

 

I like the double minor idea.  Sure, the other guy gets called, but you get back twice what you gave.  Serves you right.

 

That said, I can see this opening a can of worms regarding refs and favoritism since what constitutes embellishment is sometimes a judgment call.  I'm thinking of cases where one person might clap their hand to their mouth and check for blood after a whiff of air whereas another person might spit out the lost teeth and play on.  Who's to say that the first is embellishing (unless they're also writing their acceptance speech whilst pretending to hold an Oscar)?  It might just be a natural reaction.







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