260 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

As long as Bertuzzi isn't in the top 6, I'm sure I'll be happy. I'd like to see Flip play with Pav though, that's something we don't often get to see, and would likely work wonders. That said, we know he's great with Z as well. What I'd like to see:

 

Flip Pav Franzen

Sammy/Nyquist Z Brunner

Nyquist/Sammy Helm Cleary

Miller/Bert Abds Tootoo

Bert/Miller

 

Why the Bertuzzi hate?  Were his 38 pts. not impressive enough?  He's a complimentary piece, with size, soft hands, and ability to cycle down low.  Paired with the right linemates he's still a very effective player.  Especially considering he's the only forward we have with any size who is strong on the puck and hard to take it away from.  How do you justify putting him on a checking line at 38 years old and without good speed to begin with?  Might as well not even play him if that's the plan, and presumably replace him with who?  A small skilled forward?  Sheahan?  There's nobody else.

[LidstromIsASuperhero]

Why not three scoring lines? We have the personnel to do it.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Samuelsson
Nyquist-Filppula-Cleary
Miller-Helm-Tootoo
Mursak-Abdelkader-Eaves

Kronwall-Quincey
White-Ericsson
Smith-Colaicovo
Kindl

[GMRwings1983]

Why the Bertuzzi hate?  Were his 38 pts. not impressive enough?  He's a complimentary piece, with size, soft hands, and ability to cycle down low.  Paired with the right linemates he's still a very effective player.  Especially considering he's the only forward we have with any size who is strong on the puck and hard to take it away from.  How do you justify putting him on a checking line at 38 years old and without good speed to begin with?  Might as well not even play him if that's the plan, and presumably replace him with who?  A small skilled forward?  Sheahan?  There's nobody else.

 

No, considering how he played with Datsyuk or Zetterberg at various points in the season.  

 

If you can't score more than 38 points playing with those players, you shouldn't be on the top two lines.  Just means he was dragging those guys back from scoring even more.    

[fat guy in a maltby jersey]

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Samuelsson

can you imagine what might go through datsyuk's head as he skates out for the game 1 opening faceoff with these 2 wingers?

i'd be on the first plane back to russia if i were him.

[LeftWinger]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="number9" data-cid="2338319" data-time="1357600629"><p>
 <br />
Would be an awesomeeeeeeeee line. Only a problem I see is then who plays on Datsyuks RW? Fil? Goose? </p></blockquote>

Ya no real shooters but I think flip and pavs defense and tenacity will create scoring chances... If it doesn't work put Sammy on there and Bert on the 3rd. Pavs and flip playing together will get their points one way or another but our first line needs to be a game changer

Which would have been such with Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan on it...Hell even Semin.  It will be one of the lower level first lines with Franzine or Bertuzzi on it... May as well go with:

 

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Brunner

Franzine - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Cleary - Helm - Sammy

Miller - Abby - Tootoo

 

...especially if Nyquist is gonna stay in GR for a bit longer...

[kipwinger]

No, considering how he played with Datsyuk or Zetterberg at various points in the season.  

 

If you can't score more than 38 points playing with those players, you shouldn't be on the top two lines.  Just means he was dragging those guys back from scoring even more.    

 

So who would you replace him with?  Also, perhaps he didn't score more because he played the majority of the season on a line with Frazen, who plays the exact same game as Bert, only younger.  As I've previously stated, if you have two guys on a line that play the same game, one of them will suffer. 

Edited by kipwinger, 07 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[GMRwings1983]

So who would you replace him with?

 

Anyone younger than 38, with more talent and work ethic.  Shouldn't be hard.  

 

I don't know if Holland plans on doing anything at this point.  I know he didn't do much last offseason to bolster this team.

 

As far as our current roster goes, I gave you what I thought was the best lineup.  I never said I liked the lineup.  Bert is another player like Sammy that doesn't belong well on any line.  

 

Maybe we can just dress him for those cheap shootout points we're going to need in this short season.  

[Z and D for the C]

 We have the personnel to do it.

 

Not by a long shot.

[kipwinger]

Anyone younger than 38, with more talent and work ethic.  Shouldn't be hard.  

 

I don't know if Holland plans on doing anything at this point.  I know he didn't do much last offseason to bolster this team.

 

As far as our current roster goes, I gave you what I thought was the best lineup.  I never said I liked the lineup.  Bert is another player like Sammy that doesn't belong well on any line.  

 

Maybe we can just dress him for those cheap shootout points we're going to need in this short season.  

 

 

Are there lots of guys on our roster, or in the league for that matter, who have the same size as Bert with more talent and work ethic?  As a matter of fact where does this belief that he's not talented or doesn't work hard come from?  I can recall multiple interviews in which Babcock lauds Bertuzzi's work ethic. 

Edited by kipwinger, 07 January 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[F.Michael]

Are there lots of guys on our roster, or in the league for that matter, who have the same size as Bert with more talent and work ethic.  As a matter of fact where does this belief that he's not talented or doesn't work hard come from?  I can recall multiple interviews in which Babcock lauds Bertuzzi's work ethic. 

Bert might have a good work ethic, but so did Chelios, and just like Chelios - Bert is on his last legs (at least in my opinion), and as GMR has already mentioned - if ya can't get anything more than 38 pts on a top Red Wings line - well that's not saying much.

 

Want my bloody honest opinion?.....I'd rather have that lil'nutty bastard Tootoo out there instead of Bert, or Sammy...He's more physical than the other 2 combined, and he drives to the net like a street vagrant diving on a half-eaten Tim Horton's apple fritter.

[GMRwings1983]

Are there lots of guys on our roster, or in the league for that matter, who have the same size as Bert with more talent and work ethic.  As a matter of fact where does this belief that he's not talented or doesn't work hard come from?  I can recall multiple interviews in which Babcock lauds Bertuzzi's work ethic. 

 

You contradict yourself.  You said earlier that he scored 38 points last year.  Now you suggest that he's big, talented and has a good work ethic.  Wouldn't a big, talented forward with good work ethic score more than 38 points, especially if he's playing with Pavel or Hank?  I would think so.  

 

The truth is that he's a big time floater and is too streaky.  That belief comes from watching him on the ice and from his point totals.  And of course there's guys in the league who are 6'3 and have a better work ethic with more talent than Bert.  He's almost 40 and offers nothing at this point, besides shootout goals.  His point totals are dropping and I doubt his upside has increased during this lockout.  

 

Babcock was being nice.  He's not going to tell the media that Bert is lazy.  I'm sure Babcock wishes Holland went out and bolstered the top 6 after the last several underwhelming playoffs from the team.  

[LeftWinger]

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident."  I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

 

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

Edited by LeftWinger, 07 January 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[kipwinger]

You contradict yourself.  You said earlier that he scored 38 points last year.  Now you suggest that he's big, talented and has a good work ethic.  Wouldn't a big, talented forward with good work ethic score more than 38 points, especially if he's playing with Pavel or Hank?  I would think so.  

 

The truth is that he's a big time floater and is too streaky.  That belief comes from watching him on the ice and from his point totals.  And of course there's guys in the league who are 6'3 and have a better work ethic with more talent than Bert.  He's almost 40 and offers nothing at this point, besides shootout goals.  His point totals are dropping and I doubt his upside has increased during this lockout.  

 

Babcock was being nice.  He's not going to tell the media that Bert is lazy.  I'm sure Babcock wishes Holland went out and bolstered the top 6 after the last several underwhelming playoffs from the team.  

 

 

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com..._todd_bert.html

 

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_contin.html

 

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com...eport_miss.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_game-w.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zi_looking.html

 

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com...sis_on_def.html

 

 

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again?  Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours?  If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works? 

 

Two years ago, at 38 years old, and despite a waning skill set, Tomas Holmstrom scored 18 goals.  Obviously old guys can still produce in the right roles.  However, as I said, when Bert is on a line with Franzen who plays the exact same game, his points are going to suffer. 

 

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident."  I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

 

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

 

 

 

Nobody ever said Franzen was a sniper.  He scores most of his goals around the crease and in high traffic areas, and always has.  Steven Stamkos is a sniper, Franzen is a "power" forward.  The only person who seems to hold his "not being a sniper" against him is you.  That said, I agree that he doesn't work very hard.

 

Edit:  50 pts. in 48-50 games huh?  Nobody on our team, including Dats and Z are a point per game player at this point.  If that's your standard for success then almost everyone in the league is a failure.

Edited by kipwinger, 07 January 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[LeftWinger]

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com..._todd_bert.html

 

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_contin.html

 

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com...eport_miss.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_game-w.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zi_looking.html

 

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com...sis_on_def.html

 

 

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again?  Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours?  If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works? 

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody ever said Franzen was a sniper.  He scores most of his goals around the crease and in high traffic areas, and always has.  Steven Stamkos is a sniper, Franzen is a "power" forward.  The only person who seems to hold his "not being a sniper" against him is you.  That said, I agree that he doesn't work very hard.

 

True, but Hossa is a sniper and Franzen was chosen over him to be our Sniper, then he signed the contract and has gotten lazy.  I guess they were hoping that Franzen would lift his game each year, yet it has stalled and now he cannot even score on a consistant level.  Sure he had 29 goals, but he seems to score 20 before December and then falls off, only to not be able to pick it back up in the playoffs.  Like I said, I hope this short season he stays motivated and nets 20 goals among 40-50 points to truely take over as the scorer he was signed to be.  I cannot take another 8 years of the last 3 from Franzen... Sorry but with the disposal of Hudler, Frazine has slid right into the top spot for hatred from me, with Kindl right behind him. Hopefully they both do something this year to change my mind...

[F.Michael]

^ To be honest I don't consider Franzen to be a "power forward" either...To me that's an insult to Shanahan, Roberts, Clark, Tocchet, Nolan, etc, etc.

[GMRwings1983]

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident."  I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

 

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

 

  

 

What incident?  Is there something I'm missing here?

 

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com..._todd_bert.html

 

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_contin.html

 

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com...eport_miss.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zzi_game-w.html

 

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com...zi_looking.html

 

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com...sis_on_def.html

 

 

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again?  Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours?  If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works? 

 

 

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons.  He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.     

[kipwinger]

True, but Hossa is a sniper and Franzen was chosen over him to be our Sniper, then he signed the contract and has gotten lazy.  I guess they were hoping that Franzen would lift his game each year, yet it has stalled and now he cannot even score on a consistant level.  Sure he had 29 goals, but he seems to score 20 before December and then falls off, only to not be able to pick it back up in the playoffs.  Like I said, I hope this short season he stays motivated and nets 20 goals among 40-50 points to truely take over as the scorer he was signed to be.  I cannot take another 8 years of the last 3 from Franzen... Sorry but with the disposal of Hudler, Frazine has slid right into the top spot for hatred from me, with Kindl right behind him. Hopefully they both do something this year to change my mind...

 

He was not chosen over Hossa "to be our sniper".  He was chosen over Hossa because at that point in their careers Franzen provided similar production for less money.  Also because the Wings are typically loyal to those who perform well for them, which up to that point Franzen has.  Again, you keep suggesting that the team expected him to be a sniper when the only person who feels that way is you. 

 

 

  

 

What incident?  Is there something I'm missing here?

 

 

 

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons.  He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.     

 

 

 

Right, the most successful coach since the lockout should take pointers from you, good call. 

Edited by kipwinger, 07 January 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[GMRwings1983]

He was not chosen over Hossa "to be our sniper".  He was chosen over Hossa because at that point in their careers Franzen provided similar production for less money.  Also because the Wings are typically loyal to those who perform well for them, which up to that point Franzen has.  Again, you keep suggesting that the team expected him to be a sniper when the only person who feels that way is you. 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, the most successful coach since the lockout should take pointers from you, good call. 

 

The last few seasons, he hasn't done that great a job.  The team took too many games off last season and it doesn't seem like he got through to the players as much.  

 

Then again, as I said earlier, Holland hasn't exactly done much to bolster this lineup.  Babcock sounded unhappy after the last playoff loss, and stated this team was heading in the wrong direction.  We're still headed in that direction.       

[kipwinger]

^ To be honest I don't consider Franzen to be a "power forward" either...To me that's an insult to Shanahan, Roberts, Clark, Tocchet, Nolan, etc, etc.

 

I agree, I'm not saying he's a great one.  But that's the style of game he plays.  Maybe a comparison to Mats Sundin's style of play is more comparable.  Either way, he's no sniper and nobody every expected that out of him aside from some errant fans. 

[Drake_Marcus]

Here's my wishful thinking lines, factoring in that some of the guys who have been playing hockey all year will have an advantage:

 

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Franzen
Filppula - Z - Brunner
Cleary - Helm - Sammy
Tootoo - Abdelkader - Bertuzzi
Scratches: Miller,Mursak
1st call-up: Tatar (he or Mursak could knock Cleary, Bert or Sammy down to scratch level due to their inactivity)

Kronwall - Quincey
White - Ericsson
Smith - Colo
Scratch: Kindl has to fight Colo for a spot after Carl gets back from his shoulder injury

Howard
Gus

 

Tatar and Mursak have good shots at pushing a veteran down the depth chart this season because both have been playing all season against professional competition.  Tatar's having his best year so far (he's probably the most complete, hard-working player in GR right now) and he's playing the kind of puck-dog game that Babcock loves.

The short training camp and lack of a pre-season will definitely make the lives of the bottom six veteran guys much, much tougher (on every team).  Expect some to severely underperform and others to get injured early.

The last few seasons, he hasn't done that great a job.  The team took too many games off last season and it doesn't seem like he got through to the players as much.  

 

Then again, as I said earlier, Holland hasn't exactly done much to bolster this lineup.  Babcock sounded unhappy after the last playoff loss, and stated this team was heading in the wrong direction.  We're still headed in that direction.       

 

Without internal growth that won't change (and Holland knows that).  When he lost out on the UFA sweepstakes he brought cheap veterans in who can provide insurance if the kids don't grow into top rolls.

 

If you think this team is in the position to trade assets for quick fixes you havent' looked at the ages of our top players.  The Wings are in "reload" mode and not far from "rebuild" mode (entirely dependant on how Datsyuk and Zetterberg play as they continue to get older).