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Would you trade Jimmy Howard for an elite forward/defenseman?

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I've kept an eye on how Mrazek has been doing this year in Grand Rapids. He had an amazing start, but has been a bit hit and miss since than. I think he's a year or two away from being ready for the NHL. That being said Jimmy has been great for us when it doesn't matter so much and lousy in the playoffs. I would give him one more chance to redeem himself in the postseason. If he fails again, then I would consider trading him. I don't know if we could get a top notch player for him straight up, I think it might cost us more than just him to make the deal work.

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Only Detroit fans think Howard is worth anything. His only value to me is that he is a workhorse/gamer. That speaks a lot more for a goalie than a skater.

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Yes I would. Howard is good but certainly not in the top tier so getting an elite defenseman which are extremely rare and hard to get would be well worth it. I think it is easier to get average - good goaltenders than to get elite defenders.

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Yes I would. Howard is good but certainly not in the top tier so getting an elite defenseman which are extremely rare and hard to get would be well worth it. I think it is easier to get average - good goaltenders than to get elite defenders.

How do you define top tier? I would put him in the top half to top third of starters in the league. To me that is good enough. He isn't overpaid so presumably we would eat salary in return or it would be a lateral move.

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In theory, I would. But you couldn't get anything elite for Jimmy.

That's pretty much how I feel.

Theoretically, absolutely I would for a truly elite player. Jimmy is good but not elite so that trade would be a win for the Wings.

But i can't imagine what trade there'd be for an elite forward or d-man that would only involve Howard.

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I don't know where people get the impression that Pearce was a hyped prospect. He was undrafted coming out of Notre Dame & signed a contract with the Wings as a long shot. Was really just a depth signing for GR & Toledo.

CCHA Goaltender of the year for 07/08 probably helped.

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I don't get why so many people knock Jimmy for. He is a great goaltender who has been improving year after year, ya he had a crappy go at it in the playoffs, but honestly people can we blame him? How many goals was he left out to dry for? Our whole team didn't show up in the playoffs, you can't put the blame on Jimmy when there is 4 breakaways a game and 3 2 on 0's. Ya he did make a couple mistakes and let in a goal he shouldn't have, but which goalie has not? Would I trade Jimmy? Absolutely not! He IS our future, Most goalies don't start peaking till about 30, look at thomas, lundqvist, luongo, hasek, belfour, ozzy, and many more. Red Wings fans are waaayyy too hard on the goalies. Jimmy now is 10x better than when he started, he EARNED his spot on this team. Don't forget before hiis injury last year he was riding top 5 in all top goaltending stats, no one even touched him in wins (Rinne) for about 2 weeks after he stopped playing. We need Jimmy simple as that, trade franzen.

evilmrt, dobbles, Jasper84 and 1 other like this

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="F.Michael" data-cid="2339075" data-time="1357846036"><p>

While I'll be the 1st to admit that I don't follow the AHL, or our prospects - I'm not finding much about this Petr Mrazek kid.</p></blockquote>

Take it for what its worth but.. He's had slightly better numbers this year than Howard did on the griffins last time I checked..

I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.

Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP

Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP

But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.

Edited by Johnz96

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I don't get why so many people knock Jimmy for. He is a great goaltender who has been improving year after year, ya he had a crappy go at it in the playoffs, but honestly people can we blame him? How many goals was he left out to dry for? Our whole team didn't show up in the playoffs, you can't put the blame on Jimmy when there is 4 breakaways a game and 3 2 on 0's. Ya he did make a couple mistakes and let in a goal he shouldn't have, but which goalie has not? Would I trade Jimmy? Absolutely not! He IS our future, Most goalies don't start peaking till about 30, look at thomas, lundqvist, luongo, hasek, belfour, ozzy, and many more. Red Wings fans are waaayyy too hard on the goalies. Jimmy now is 10x better than when he started, he EARNED his spot on this team. Don't forget before hiis injury last year he was riding top 5 in all top goaltending stats, no one even touched him in wins (Rinne) for about 2 weeks after he stopped playing. We need Jimmy simple as that, trade franzen.

I don't disagree with you about Howard improving every year but all those goalies you mention other than Thomas were great NHL goalies as soon as they were afforded an opportunity in the NHL.

In Osgood's case, if we stuck with him in the playoffs instead of going with Essensa we might have won a Cup in his rookie year in 94.

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I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.

Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP

Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP

But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.

But you're talking about 187 games jimmy played in GR, compared to like 15 Mrazek has played, you cannot compare that

I don't disagree with you about Howard improving every year but all those goalies you mention other than Thomas were great NHL goalies as soon as they were afforded an opportunity in the NHL.

In Osgood's case, if we stuck with him in the playoffs instead of going with Essensa we might have won a Cup in his rookie year in 94.

They were also much more matured and refined by the time they got the chance, and a few of them had started earlier, but took a few years in the nhl to really develop.

Ozzy, did get chances in the playoffs, he was decent in the playoffs but never great. He had a great team in front of him which certainly helped, but he did play every year in the playoffs and was given many opportunities to prove himself. Many fans did not think he could ever win us a cup, hell people were even starting to doubt Stevie, but thankfully management saw what the fans did not, and just like howie will, he brought stanley back to hockeytown

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But you're talking about 187 games jimmy played in GR, compared to like 15 Mrazek has played, you cannot compare that

I do agree with you there but I was responding to a comment which compared exactly that saying "Take it for what its worth but.. He's had slightly better numbers this year than Howard did on the griffins last time I checked.."

I only wanted to point out that they are actually a little more than just slightly better thus far.

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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I do agree with you there but I was responding to a comment which compared exactly that saying "Take it for what its worth but.. He's had slightly better numbers this year than Howard did on the griffins last time I checked.."

I only wanted to point out that they are actually a little more than just slightly better thus far.

I agree, but taking it for what it's worth only goes so far. I have watched some videos of Mrazek, and while the kid certainly does look amazing, and possibly our future starter, he is still young, and this could be another franzen occurrence (flash of brilliance, then a no show for a few weeks) I hope it isn't but I do not want to get too excited until I see him in red and white playing consistently.

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You can't bank on a goalie prospect. Ever. Goalies are generall too flaky.

Which is also why I would not trade Howard for anyone at this point. He shows signs of brilliance, can carry the team, and is a workhorse. Not too many of those in the league, and in today's NHL that's all you need. What good is an elite defenseman if your goalie sucks? Howard has at least shown he can bail out the team when they lapse into bad defense. Ergo, he is more valuable.

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trading howard is not a smart move for this team. he is our best player under 30. he has been an above average starter for several seasons now and for portions of those seasons played as en elite goalie. all the while he was playing behind a team with a pretty sub-par defense. even with lidstrom, this team has been bad in their own zone for a few years. i go back to that play in the playoffs against the preds where 3 guys follow 1 pred player into the corner and no one covers the guy in front of the net. this has happened time and time again the past few years.

to me, a true elite goaltender can stop shots that he isn't expected to or supposed to. kipper in 04 is the perfect example of that. there are very few in the league that can do that for more than a couple years. howard might not be in that group, but to me he is in the one right behind it.

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I would in no way even consider trading Jimmy away. For starters we just lost lidstrom and yes our D looks a little vulnerable but trading Howard for even the biggest named dman (pick one) and trusting the monster with the starting roll is crazy, if you've seen him play in Toronto on a regular basis you will agree. Also shouldn't Mrazek get through his first ahl season first before we trade Jimmy away? Jimmy is one thing that keeps our D in it this season without Nick. He has played awesome for us and has gotten us into playoffs more then once and has been outstanding in them, I just feel this is way to early to be even considering this.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339173" data-time="1357876118"><p>

I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.<br />

Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP<br />

Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP<br />

But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.</p></blockquote>

This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339173" data-time="1357876118"><p>

I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.<br />

Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP<br />

Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP<br />

But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.</p></blockquote>

This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the dynamic, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, score.)

Edited by Dabura

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I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the dynamic, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, score.)

This is one post I most certainly have to disagree with... Look at Quick last year, his forwards couldn't score until the playoffs, and his D was sub-par. Quick keptthem alive, kid is phenomenal.

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^I'll say this until I'm blue in the face-Quick's playoff performance has been vastly overrated. He had a very Brodeur-like run, in that his defense swept up rebounds off of great saves but all we remember is the save. He hardly faced multiple shots, and didn't face nearly that many tough chances. He did, but with the way he's been talked up you'd think he just put on a Hasek show. Personally my vote for MVP would've went to Kopitar. He was absolutely everywhere. Defense, scoring, setting up, leading, physicality, etc. I won't even get into the fact I think they shouldn't have gotten past PHO anyway...

I've kept an eye on how Mrazek has been doing this year in Grand Rapids. He had an amazing start, but has been a bit hit and miss since than. I think he's a year or two away from being ready for the NHL. That being said Jimmy has been great for us when it doesn't matter so much and lousy in the playoffs. I would give him one more chance to redeem himself in the postseason. If he fails again, then I would consider trading him. I don't know if we could get a top notch player for him straight up, I think it might cost us more than just him to make the deal work.

Reminds me of when everyone thought Datsyuk was a playoff choker because we didn't get exactly what we wanted, instantly, and blew the problem way out of proportion. I remember Kings fans being impatient with Quick. Hell, a ton of goalies go through learning periods in the postseason before doing anything. And Howard wasn't even that bad.This thread's become kinda funny though, ranging from no, to yes, to Jimmy is untradeable, to Jimmy wouldn't fetch anything (LOL!). I dunno where we get some of this stuff from.

If you make a judgment on Mrazek based on comparing stats to Howard, just stop, that indicates absolutely nothing. May as well just type IDK because it's the same thing, just quicker.

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^I'll say this until I'm blue in the face-Quick's playoff performance has been vastly overrated. He had a very Brodeur-like run, in that his defense swept up rebounds off of great saves but all we remember is the save. He hardly faced multiple shots, and didn't face nearly that many tough chances. He did, but with the way he's been talked up you'd think he just put on a Hasek show. Personally my vote for MVP would've went to Kopitar. He was absolutely everywhere. Defense, scoring, setting up, leading, physicality, etc. I won't even get into the fact I think they shouldn't have gotten past PHO anyway...

Reminds me of when everyone thought Datsyuk was a playoff choker because we didn't get exactly what we wanted, instantly, and blew the problem way out of proportion. I remember Kings fans being impatient with Quick. Hell, a ton of goalies go through learning periods in the postseason before doing anything. And Howard wasn't even that bad.This thread's become kinda funny though, ranging from no, to yes, to Jimmy is untradeable, to Jimmy wouldn't fetch anything (LOL!). I dunno where we get some of this stuff from.

If you make a judgment on Mrazek based on comparing stats to Howard, just stop, that indicates absolutely nothing. May as well just type IDK because it's the same thing, just quicker.

I agree with you here on most points, hoever I was referring more to quick during the regular season. As I said his forwards couldn't put pucks in the net until playoffs came. Quick kept them alive until the playoffs which is when his teammates finally stepped up. I do agree though that his playoff performance was a bit overrated though. I couldn't agree more about Mrazek and howard though, Give Howie a break, he has been great for us thus far and was thrown headfirst into the playoffs as a starter, he didn't even get a chance as backup to get his feet wet. Mrazek could end up being great, but a stretch of wins doesn't instantly qualify him to take over for Jimmy.

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I do agree with you there but I was responding to a comment which compared exactly that saying "Take it for what its worth but.. He's had slightly better numbers this year than Howard did on the griffins last time I checked.."

I only wanted to point out that they are actually a little more than just slightly better thus far.

I forgot to mention that Mrazek is a year younger than Jimmy was when he started his professional career

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>

<br />

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>

I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>

<br />

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>

I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.

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