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Would you trade Jimmy Howard for an elite forward/defenseman?


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#41 13dangledangle

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:44 AM

I would in no way even consider trading Jimmy away.  For starters we just lost lidstrom and yes our D looks a little vulnerable but trading Howard for even the biggest named dman (pick one) and trusting the monster with the starting roll is crazy, if you've seen him play in Toronto on a regular basis you will agree.  Also shouldn't Mrazek get through his first ahl season first before we trade Jimmy away?  Jimmy is one thing that keeps our D in it this season without Nick.  He has played awesome for us and has gotten us into playoffs more then once and has been outstanding in them, I just feel this is way to early to be even considering this. 


....Ladies and Gentlemen Jimmy "F%$*ing" Howard.

#42 The Axe

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339173" data-time="1357876118"><p>
I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.<br />
Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP<br />
Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP<br />
But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.</p></blockquote>


This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

#43 Dabura

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339173" data-time="1357876118"><p>
I think Howard is one of the better goalies in the NHL but Mrazek is special.<br />
Howard's career numbers in Grand Rapids are GAA of 2.67 and .911 SP<br />
Mrazek currently is GAA of 2.15 and .920 SP<br />
But it's not just his number his confidence is infectious. He got called up and turned the Griffs around winning 4 in a row after a poor start, even McCollum turned it around after Mrazek showed up and is playing by far the best of his career after a slow start.</p></blockquote>


This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

 

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the dynamic, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, score.)


Edited by Dabura, 11 January 2013 - 12:31 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#44 Euro_Twins

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the dynamic, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, score.)

 

This is one post I most certainly have to disagree with... Look at Quick last year, his forwards couldn't score until the playoffs, and his D was sub-par. Quick keptthem alive, kid is phenomenal.



#45 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

^I'll say this until I'm blue in the face-Quick's playoff performance has been vastly overrated. He had a very Brodeur-like run, in that his defense swept up rebounds off of great saves but all we remember is the save. He hardly faced multiple shots, and didn't face nearly that many tough chances. He did, but with the way he's been talked up you'd think he just put on a Hasek show. Personally my vote for MVP would've went to Kopitar. He was absolutely everywhere. Defense, scoring, setting up, leading, physicality, etc. I won't even get into the fact I think they shouldn't have gotten past PHO anyway...

I've kept an eye on how Mrazek has been doing this year in Grand Rapids.  He had an amazing start, but has been a bit hit and miss since than.  I think he's a year or two away from being ready for the NHL.  That being said Jimmy has been great for us when it doesn't matter so much and lousy in the playoffs.  I would give him one more chance to redeem himself in the postseason.  If he fails again, then I would consider trading him.  I don't know if we could get a top notch player for him straight up, I think it might cost us more than just him to make the deal work.

 

Reminds me of when everyone thought Datsyuk was a playoff choker because we didn't get exactly what we wanted, instantly, and blew the problem way out of proportion. I remember Kings fans being impatient with Quick. Hell, a ton of goalies go through learning periods in the postseason before doing anything. And Howard wasn't even that bad.This thread's become kinda funny though, ranging from no, to yes, to Jimmy is untradeable, to Jimmy wouldn't fetch anything (LOL!). I dunno where we get some of this stuff from.

 

If you make a judgment on Mrazek based on comparing stats to Howard, just stop, that indicates absolutely nothing. May as well just type IDK because it's the same thing, just quicker.



#46 Euro_Twins

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

^I'll say this until I'm blue in the face-Quick's playoff performance has been vastly overrated. He had a very Brodeur-like run, in that his defense swept up rebounds off of great saves but all we remember is the save. He hardly faced multiple shots, and didn't face nearly that many tough chances. He did, but with the way he's been talked up you'd think he just put on a Hasek show. Personally my vote for MVP would've went to Kopitar. He was absolutely everywhere. Defense, scoring, setting up, leading, physicality, etc. I won't even get into the fact I think they shouldn't have gotten past PHO anyway...

 

Reminds me of when everyone thought Datsyuk was a playoff choker because we didn't get exactly what we wanted, instantly, and blew the problem way out of proportion. I remember Kings fans being impatient with Quick. Hell, a ton of goalies go through learning periods in the postseason before doing anything. And Howard wasn't even that bad.This thread's become kinda funny though, ranging from no, to yes, to Jimmy is untradeable, to Jimmy wouldn't fetch anything (LOL!). I dunno where we get some of this stuff from.

 

If you make a judgment on Mrazek based on comparing stats to Howard, just stop, that indicates absolutely nothing. May as well just type IDK because it's the same thing, just quicker.

 

I agree with you here on most points, hoever I was referring more to quick during the regular season. As I said his forwards couldn't put pucks in the net until playoffs came. Quick kept them alive until the playoffs which is when his teammates finally stepped up. I do agree though that his playoff performance was a bit overrated though. I couldn't agree more about Mrazek and howard though, Give Howie a break, he has been great for us thus far and was thrown headfirst into the playoffs as a starter, he didn't even get a chance as backup to get his feet wet. Mrazek could end up being great, but a stretch of wins doesn't instantly qualify him to take over for Jimmy.



#47 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

Ah, I thought you meant the playoffs. Sometimes I forget about this whole reading thing.



#48 Johnz96

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

I do agree with you there but I was responding to a comment which compared exactly that saying "Take it for what its worth but.. He's had slightly better numbers this year than Howard did on the griffins last time I checked.."

I only wanted to point out that they are actually a little more than just slightly better thus far.

I forgot to mention that Mrazek is a year younger than Jimmy was when he started his professional career



#49 The Axe

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>
 <br />
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>


I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

#50 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:26 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>
 <br />
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>


I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

 

Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.



#51 Johnz96

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

But you're talking about 187 games jimmy played in GR, compared to like 15 Mrazek has played, you cannot compare that

 

They were also much more matured and refined by the time they got the chance, and a few of them had started earlier, but took a few years in the nhl to really develop.

 

Ozzy, did get chances in the playoffs, he was decent in the playoffs but never great. He had a great team in front of him which certainly helped, but he did play every year in the playoffs and was given many opportunities to prove himself. Many fans did not think he could ever win us a cup, hell people were even starting to doubt Stevie, but thankfully management saw what the fans did not, and just like howie will, he brought stanley back to hockeytown

In 94 the Wings started the playoffs with Essensa but he was terrible in a 6-5 loss to the Sharks they put in Ozzy the rookie in and he was great, recording a shutout in the first winning the next one and then he made a big mistake handling the puck giving it to the Sharks for an easy game winner in the 4th game. They went with Essensa for the 5th game, he was terrible again losing 6-4, The Wings were down 3-2 at this point they went with Ozzy again and he was great and won the 6th game and the Wings lost the 7th 3-2 Ozzy was good Irbe was better. In this whole series the Wings were dominant, they looked like they were playing a jr. team except Irbe was amazing (one of the best goaltending performances I have ever seen), Essensa single-handidly lost games for them and Osgood was great but they wete worried about going wityh a rookie for the playoffs, I think if they did, we might have won the Cup that year.

The next year Vernon was brought in. Vernon was our starter for 2 years and when Osgood was finally given the opportunity to start in the playoffs he won the Cup and was actually better than Vernon in the previous year (Vernon won the Conn Smythe but the Wings were dominant outshooting the opponent in every game and they had Vladdy that year, Ozzy didn't), he had better numbers than Vernon every year but they chose to go with Vernon in the playoffs in 95 becasue he had already won a Cup and was more experienced, the following year Osgood once again had better numbers than Vernon and the went with Ozzy in the playoffs, he was great but once again we didn't win a Cup. The next year he had  better numbers than Vernon but this time they chose Vernon and the rest is history.

Osgood and all those other goialies you mentioned were great NHL goalies as soon as they were afforded the opportunity to be. Osgood and all of them were just as good when they entered the league as they were throughout their careers.



#52 The Axe

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shoobiedoobin" data-cid="2339311" data-time="1357932386"><p>
 <br />
Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.</p></blockquote>


Giguere had the "it" for a few seasons. Dont you remember us throwing 55 shots at him every game and only getting 1 goal? He and his size 92 sweater and 24" wide pads caught fire and saved Anaheim's ass.

Niemi I will give you. He was just in there on a bitchin team.

#53 kylee

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

Yeah, let's fill one hole in our team and in turn just create another, larger one.  



#54 chances14

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

 

Regular Season

 

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

 

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

 

-----------------

 

Playoffs

 

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

 

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

 

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves.  take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

 

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

 

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.


Edited by chances14, 11 January 2013 - 03:36 PM.


#55 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:04 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="shoobiedoobin" data-cid="2339311" data-time="1357932386"><p>
 <br />
Attitude is so overblown. Antii Niemi won a cup for crying out loud, and not only is he mediocre but he can get junior hockey-style shaky and lose his confidence. Even in that playoff run he looked like ass a lot of the time. JS Giguere won a championship and his attitude is as plain jane vanilla as it gets. And for argument's sake, there's nothing wrong with Howard's demeanor. He'll defend himself far more than most goalies will, he sticks up for teammates, he's actually openly shown more swagger and bravado in his crease than most goalies in this league. If anything I'd say hiw he carries himself is one of his positives.</p></blockquote>


Giguere had the "it" for a few seasons. Dont you remember us throwing 55 shots at him every game and only getting 1 goal? He and his size 92 sweater and 24" wide pads caught fire and saved Anaheim's ass.

Niemi I will give you. He was just in there on a bitchin team.

A bitchin team and probably the biggest cake walk to a championship ever. Giguere I always thought was blown insanely out of proportion. At least in 2004 he could move his arms and legs. In 07 he'd become a shell, just skating past his crease, butterflying and relying on his stacked defense. If Giguere, Niemi, Ward, Fleury or Khabibulin can win, Howard definitely can. We just judge off of what we immediately feel when we think of a player, mostly rep, and like anything in life we wait until it's safe to change our minds. We will say Jimmy can't win one, until he does, and then he'll be viewed as a winner. People last offseason said the same thing about Jon Quick and a lot of other goalies until they won. 


Edited by shoobiedoobin, 11 January 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#56 Johnz96

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

 

Regular Season

 

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

 

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

 

-----------------

 

Playoffs

 

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

 

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

 

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves.  take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

 

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

 

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

Howard's on a better team and has had Lidstrom in front of him. It will be interesting to see how he fares this year.

If Howard wins a Cup this year, he will be a lot richer next year than if he doesn't


Edited by Johnz96, 11 January 2013 - 04:15 PM.


#57 dobbles

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

This is a GREAT point. Probably the most significant thing Jimmy lacks = the attitude. Roy had it. Hasek had it. Brodeur has it. The ability to seem indomitable inspires the rest of the team. Quick last year is a perfect example. Jimmy doesnt have this.

 

14 months ago, no one would have said quick was someone that had it either. heck, he was still fighting to keep the starting spot form bernier.

 

i am not trying to implty quick was bad last year. i just think we all need to keep perspective. players can go from chump to hero and back in the blink of an eye in the nhl. especially in goal. there are very few goalies that can be top level for more than a few years.

 

i would love to see mrazek develop into the goalie of the future. but right now he isnt an option and gustavsson is not anywhere near as good as howard. trading him would be getting rid of one of the best players on our team and would leave a hole at the most important position on the ice.


I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#58 Carman

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Nope, need to be sold on the other goaltenders in the organization first. Not to mention if Howard can be traded for something we need, that means he's playing really well and I'd rather keep him. And if he plays bad he wouldn't be worth anything. Don't have enough NHL goaltending depth at the moment to make an above average goalie expendable.



#59 Euro_Twins

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Dabura" data-cid="2339268" data-time="1357925397"><p>
 <br />
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Those are probably the three greatest goaltenders to ever play the game. Howard doesn't project quite that high. And he's 28. And a lot of it - this ability-to-seem-indomitable thing - lies with the goalie *and with the team in front of him (especially the D).* Meaning - the relatonship, the <strong class='bbc'>dynamic</strong>, between the two. (To be a bit less diplomatic: it helps if your blue line isn't on crack and your scoring-line forwards can actually, y'know, <em class='bbc'>score.</em>)</p></blockquote>


I will concede to you that Ive picked 3 goalies that are superb examples of having that "it" quality with the confidence/cockiness that spreads to the rest of the team. And I also agree with you that the rest of the team matters a whole hell of a lot. Im just saying Jimmy is not a Stanley Cup winner. Ever. He doesnt have "it". He is a workhorse, and I admire/like him for that. But unless we travel back to 1997 and swap him for Vernon/Osgood, he isnt going to lift the mug.

 

LOL, I am bookmarking this thread, so that I can one day say I told you so and have the proof, have some faith in Howie. If all the wings "fans" had it their way we would never have re-signed Datsyuk and we would be watching him dangle around Jimmy a few times a year, because everyone was convinced he didn't have "it" either, and he chokes in the playoffs. When you go tooting about how great howie was in the playoffs when we win the cup I will be there to show you this thread :)



#60 Jaymister

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:43 PM

howard and quick's career numbers are remarkably similar but you wouldn't know that judging by all the quick hype

 

Regular Season

 

Howard

Gaa: 2.41....917 Sv%

 

Quick: GAA: 2.31.... 916 sv%

 

-----------------

 

Playoffs

 

Howard: GAA 2.63... 915 sv%

 

Quick: GAA 2.12... 9.26 sv%

 

and quick's numbers are severely inflated by the cup run last year in which i think everyone can agree, it was waaaay more about the defense than him coming up with big saves.  take last year out, and the numbers are even more similar.

 

Let's also not forget that howard was a huge reason why the wings made the playoffs in 09-10 when the wings were also struggling to score earlier on in the season simliar to what the kings problems were early on last year

 

at this point in time i'm not sure how someone can clearly say that quick has the "it" factor but howard does not.

 

Ya it was totally more about the D than him, that's why he won the Con Smythe.  The fact is Howard numbers have been better during the season, than the playoffs, somthing that needs to change soon.


Cujo is a top 5 goalie in the league- Scott Lucidi






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