signed Red Wings sign D Kent Huskins to 1-year, $750k contract

[kipwinger 8,492]

That's exactly the problem though, you get what you pay for when it comes to aging defensemen. Yes, he signed a bunch of cheap contracts (well not necessarily considering he overpaid for Ericsson and Quincey) and now we have a cheap defense. If you want top flight talent, and you aren't currently developing it, then you have to pay for it. We didn't, so therefore we don't.

[DSM 114]

Ah, yes, this familiar dance. This is where I suggest two or three people and you shoot them down one by one because "Yeah, but" and "Well, but" and so on and so forth.

I don't think Holland is stupid. Actually, I think he's bloody brilliant. That, my friends, is why I'm so WTF-ish over his recent decisions (or lack thereof) re: our D corps. I almost feel like, if someone had just punched him in the face and said, "KEN. REMEMBER WHAT IT IS WE DO. WE WIN," a light bulb would've gone on in his head and he would've worked out some insanely incredible deal for an all-star defenseman. But, as it is, he seems almost like an imposter these days. This whole build-from-within line - so transparently contrived it almost boggles my mind.

I guess it must be my age then. I was on this forum when Shanahan left for New York and Yzerman retired. Everyone on this forum lost it because we didn't replace them with some wild trade that would've worked on NHL07 or an overpriced UFA. And then we replaced Legace with this awful old guy named Hasek. We simply went with what we had at made it to the Western Conference finals that season and all was well. So I guess I'm resistant to that "sky is falling" mentality...

So "Ah, yes, this familiar dance." is correct.

Edited January 22, 2013 by DSM

[rrasco 1,312]

See post #70 where I tell you exactly what I would have done. Or you could dig back through old threads where I repeatedly argued for signing Matt Carle AND Bryan Allen for less than we eventually DID OFFER for Suter. Or even older threads were I repeatedly argued for signing James Wisniewski. Holy s***, there's three top four defensemen I wanted who aren't named Ryan Suter and who are all currently playing top minutes for their respective teams.

Repeatedly argued to sign a James Wisniewski who refused to sign with Detroit? Good luck with that one.

[Carman 387]

That's exactly the problem though, you get what you pay for when it comes to aging defensemen. Yes, he signed a bunch of cheap contracts (well not necessarily considering he overpaid for Ericsson and Quincey) and now we have a cheap defense. If you want top flight talent, and you aren't currently developing it, then you have to pay for it. We didn't, so therefore we don't.

That's the thing Carle, and Allen are not top flight talent. They would be here for an extended period of time taking up considerable cap hits. Carle just wouldn't fit with what we need, Carle is an offensive guy, that makes a ton of errors. Compare him to White, he might score slighty more, but it's not much, and White is much more reliable. Not to mention the difference in salaries, I would easily rather have White's .37 PPG for 2.8 than Carle's .43 PPG for 5.5.

I would much rather Holland sign smart deals in free agency, than just sign whoever is available to long term contracts because of a short term problem. And I'd love to know what you think constitutes top flight talent? Because by all stats, and sources Brendan Smith is about as good of a defensive prospect that there is outside the NHL coming into the year.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Repeatedly argued to sign a James Wisniewski who refused to sign with Detroit? Good luck with that one.

He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started. Might want to be accurate the next time.

[DSM 114]

He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started. Might want to be accurate the next time.

He didn't have to sign with Columbus. He would've become a free agent if he hadn't have signed and I'm sure he and his agent knew that.

[kipwinger 8,492]

That's the thing Carle, and Allen are not top flight talent. They would be here for an extended period of time taking up considerable cap hits. Carle just wouldn't fit with what we need, Carle is an offensive guy, that makes a ton of errors. Compare him to White, he might score slighty more, but it's not much, and White is much more reliable. Not to mention the difference in salaries, I would easily rather have White's .37 PPG for 2.8 than Carle's .43 PPG for 5.5.

I would much rather Holland sign smart deals in free agency, than just sign whoever is available to long term contracts because of a short term problem. And I'd love to know what you think constitutes top flight talent? Because by all stats, and sources Brendan Smith is about as good of a defensive prospect that there is outside the NHL coming into the year.

Forwards

Johan Franzen$3,954,545

Pavel Datsyuk$6,700,000

Damien Brunner $1,300,000

Valtteri Filppula $3,000,000

Henrik Zetterberg$6,083,333

Gustav Nyquist $875,000

Danny Cleary $2,800,000

Darren Helm$2,125,000

Todd Bertuzzi$2,075,000

Drew Miller $875,000

Justin Abdelkader$1,800,000

Jordin Tootoo$1,900,000

Patrick Eaves$1,200,000

Defensemen

Niklas Kronwall$4,750,000

James Wisniewski$5,500,000

Matt Carle$5,500,000

Bryan Allen$3,500,000

Brendan Smith $875,000

Jonathan Ericsson$3,250,000

Goaltenders

Jonas Gustavsson$1,500,000

Jimmy Howard

Total payroll: 61.8 million. More than enough to give guys raises next season. And if you need to clear a little more money, buy out Bert, Cleary, or Ericsson and replace them with Sheahan, Andersson, or Lashoff.

Edited January 22, 2013 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,206]

I guess it must be my age then. I was on this forum when Shanahan left for New York and Yzerman retired. Everyone on this forum lost it because we didn't replace them with some wild trade that would've worked on NHL07 or an overpriced UFA. And then we replaced Legace with this awful old guy named Hasek. We simply went with what we had at made it to the Western Conference finals that season and all was well. So I guess I'm resistant to that "sky is falling" mentality...

So "Ah, yes, this familiar dance." is correct.

No hard feelings. It just always seems to boil down to "Well, who would you suggest?" - which is, I think, beside the point. I mean, it's a good conversation-starter, but I'm not keen on the idea that saying Holland was unprepared (or, at least, underprepared) makes me beholden to name some people, or else my contention holds no water. Now, granted, you might not be saying it's so. But there are people here who will make, and have made, the argument. And I think it's lame.

Holland's the best GM in the NHL, not me. And that's the point. Start acting like it, Ken!

[Nightfall 871]

Ah, yes, this familiar dance. This is where I suggest two or three people and you shoot them down one by one because "Yeah, but" and "Well, but" and so on and so forth.

I don't think Holland is stupid. Actually, I think he's bloody brilliant. That, my friends, is why I'm so WTF-ish over his recent decisions (or lack thereof) re: our D corps. I almost feel like, if someone had just punched him in the face and said, "KEN. REMEMBER WHAT IT IS WE DO. WE WIN," a light bulb would've gone on in his head and he would've worked out some insanely incredible deal for an all-star defenseman. But, as it is, he seems almost like an imposter these days. This whole build-from-within line - so transparently contrived it almost boggles my mind.

So, there are no excuses. Ken Holland was expected to just pull a rabbit out of a hat, pull a gun on agents, or pull a gun on GMs and force them to come to Detroit. Good to know.

IMHO, Ken Holland has done everything in his power to bring in a great team and great players. I really don't know what you expect, other than for him to blackmail players to come to Detroit or to literally trade scraps to GMs for top talent.

[DSM 114]

Left Wingers

Centers

Right Wingers

Johan Franzen$3,954,545

Pavel Datsyuk$6,700,000

Damien Brunner

Valtteri Filppula

Henrik Zetterberg$6,083,333

Gustav Nyquist

Danny Cleary

Darren Helm$2,125,000

35+

Todd Bertuzzi$2,075,000

Drew Miller

Justin Abdelkader$1,800,000

Jordin Tootoo$1,900,000

Patrick Eaves$1,200,000

Left Defense

Right Defense

Niklas Kronwall$4,750,000

James Wisniewski$5,500,000

Matt Carle$5,500,000

Bryan Allen$3,500,000

Brendan Smith

Jonathan Ericsson$3,250,000

Goaltenders

Jonas Gustavsson$1,500,000

Jimmy Howard

Total payroll: 61.8 million. More than enough to given guys raises next season. And if you need to clear a little more money, buy out Bert, Cleary, or Ericsson.

You do know the cap is only going to be about $64.3mil next year right?

[kipwinger 8,492]

He didn't have to sign with Columbus. He would've become a free agent if he hadn't have signed and I'm sure he and his agent knew that.

You're right, nobody has to sign with anybody they don't want to. However, he did sign with the team that traded for his rights, as free agents frequently do. Of course there's no guarantee that he would have signed with us, but we don't know because we didn't try to trade for him. However, there's at least some reason to believe that a player may want to sign in his home state (Parise), especially if they made him feel like they really wanted him by trading for him, slightly overpaying for him, and signing him to a 6 year contract (which wouldn't have been bad considering he was 27 at the time).

If you think landing Wisniewski was impossible ask yourself this: How did the lowliest team in the league, with a terrible GM and no money, prestige, or future prospects, manage to do it?

[puckbags 863]

If Huskins can either teach some of these guys to stay at home and play their positions or cover for their asses when they are out of position its ok in my book. Did none of these young guys watch #5 play back there? He's getting a one way because it's quite obvious Holland thinks that Huskins is a better player then someone in our top 6.

[Carman 387]

I'm having trouble getting behind seeing that as our defense for 5+ years. That's almost worse in my eyes than our current situation. Who would kill penalities on the back-end? Allen and Ericsson? Why would you get rid of White? Would Kronwall-Wisniewski play well defensively together given both have tendencies to pinch a ton.

I'd prefer our current situation. We have options to explore trades, be near the top of every top tier free agent defensemans list.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

internal blue line for the 16/17 season;

Brendan Smith 6'1" 198lb L

Max Nicastro 6'3" 225lb R

Ryan Sproul 6'3" 200lb R

Xavier Ouellet 6'1" 190lb L

Richard Nedomlel 6'5" 231lb L

Alexei Marchenko 6'2" 190lb R

Mattias Bäckman 6'2" 180lb L

Adam Almqvist 5'11" 175lb L

Mike McKee 6'4" 230lb L

Lets be honest that all these wont make the roster, but with projected talent pool we have here i wouldnt be too worried seeing it as our future D.

What i would maybe do is revert McKee back to a winger and also maybe Nedomlel as well. These 2 on the fourth line with maybe Sheahan

as the centre would make interesting viewing to say the least and give us that feared line we once had.We also have the possability of a L & R

combo on each pairing.

[kipwinger 8,492]

You do know the cap is only going to be about $64.3mil next year right?

right, and we are under that, and could clear more with buyouts.

[hillbillywingsfan 792]

He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started. Might want to be accurate the next time.

If I remember correctly He did make a comment saying he didn't want to play with Detroit. I may be mistaken.

[DSM 114]

No hard feelings. It just always seems to boil down to "Well, who would you suggest?" - which is, I think, beside the point. I mean, it's a good conversation-starter, but I'm not keen on the idea that saying Holland was unprepared (or, at least, underprepared) makes me beholden to name some people, or else my contention holds no water. Now, granted, you might not be saying it's so. But there are people here who will make, and have made, the argument. And I think it's lame.

Holland's the best GM in the NHL, not me. And that's the point. Start acting like it, Ken!

I do agree to an extent. But I also think Ken Holland is still acting like the best GM. I think not spending a forture on the limited Dmen available this past summer or trading some of our depth and or future was a smart move on his part. Just obviously not a popular one.

[kipwinger 8,492]

I'm having trouble getting behind seeing that as our defense for 5+ years. That's almost worse in my eyes than our current situation. Who would kill penalities on the back-end? Allen and Ericsson? Why would you get rid of White? Would Kronwall-Wisniewski play well defensively together given both have tendencies to pinch a ton.

I'd prefer our current situation. We have options to explore trades, be near the top of every top tier free agent defensemans list.

Ericsson and Allen are both VERY effective penalty killers. Who knows about Wiz and Kronwall, but it can't be worse than the glut of offensive minded defensemen we already have under contract.

[Greatness=PavelDatsyuk 65]

If I remember correctly He did make a comment saying he didn't want to play with Detroit. I may be mistaken.

Yeah, I remember that too.

[DSM 114]

You're right, nobody has to sign with anybody they don't want to. However, he did sign with the team that traded for his rights, as free agents frequently do. Of course there's no guarantee that he would have signed with us, but we don't know because we didn't try to trade for him. However, there's at least some reason to believe that a player may want to sign in his home state (Parise), especially if they made him feel like they really wanted him by trading for him, slightly overpaying for him, and signing him to a 6 year contract (which wouldn't have been bad considering he was 27 at the time).

If you think landing Wisniewski was impossible ask yourself this: How did the lowliest team in the league, with a terrible GM and no money, prestige, or future prospects, manage to do it?

No one can relly answer that except Wisniewski. Maybe he's buddies with someone on the team and wanted to play with them. Who knows?

right, and we are under that, and could clear more with buyouts.

You can't just buy people out to make room for huge contracts. This isn't NHL13.

[Carman 387]

Ericsson and Allen are both VERY effective penalty killers. Who knows about Wiz and Kronwall, but it can't be worse than the glut of offensive minded defensemen we already have under contract.

Ericsson is not very effective yet. And I'd argue they would be in a worse situation because you would be stuck with mediocre defenseman for 5-8 more years. If Enstrom hit the open market, and Holland didn't go after him I'd hold him accountable. But the players you mentioned would not make us a better team in the long term, although that is just my opinion of course.

[kipwinger 8,492]

If I remember correctly He did make a comment saying he didn't want to play with Detroit. I may be mistaken.

Maybe so, but Johnny Damon said he'd never be a Yankee. Money talks it professional sports.

No one can relly answer that except Wisniewski. Maybe he's buddies with someone on the team and wanted to play with them. Who knows?

You can't just buy people out to make room for huge contracts. This isn't NHL13.

As a matter of fact you absolutely CAN buyout terrible contracts, per the new CBA signed weeks ago. Might want to read up on that.

[Dabura 12,206]

I do agree to an extent. But I also think Ken Holland is still acting like the best GM. I think not spending a forture on the limited Dmen available this past summer or trading some of our depth and or future was a smart move on his part. Just obviously not a popular one.

Did he necessarily have to spend a fortune, though? I mean, for the love of Defense Itself: you lose Brian Rafalski, Nick Lidstrom, Brad Stuart, you bring in a heavy. That's just GMing 101.

I can appreciate the smart-though-not-popular angle. But I think, really, it was complacency more than anything else.

(There's one possibility we haven't considered: that Nick may not have been entirely unequivocal about the terms of departure. In other words, maybe he left Ken with a bit of hope that he might consider returning after however many months. If I'm Holland, I probably save a big chunk of cash so that I can give Nick a blank check further down the road, should it come to that. Of course, that's also kinda Denial territory, thinking Nick might come back.)

[Carman 387]

As a matter of fact you absolutely CAN buyout terrible contracts, per the new CBA signed weeks ago. Might want to read up on that.

Yea, umm he'd have to sign these guys during the old CBA.

[DSM 114]

Maybe so, but Johnny Damon said he'd never be a Yankee. Money talks it professional sports.

As a matter of fact you absolutely CAN buyout terrible contracts, per the new CBA signed weeks ago. Might want to read up on that.

I know all about the new CBA, thanks. All of the players you named could either be traded or would be taken on waivers before we tried to buy them out. Which just makes it a stupid argument is all.