254 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

That's exactly the problem though, you get what you pay for when it comes to aging defensemen.  Yes, he signed a bunch of cheap contracts (well not necessarily considering he overpaid for Ericsson and Quincey) and now we have a cheap defense.  If you want top flight talent, and you aren't currently developing it, then you have to pay for it.  We didn't, so therefore we don't.

[DSM]

 
Ah, yes, this familiar dance. This is where I suggest two or three people and you shoot them down one by one because "Yeah, but" and "Well, but" and so on and so forth.
 
I don't think Holland is stupid. Actually, I think he's bloody brilliant. That, my friends, is why I'm so WTF-ish over his recent decisions (or lack thereof) re: our D corps. I almost feel like, if someone had just punched him in the face and said, "KEN. REMEMBER WHAT IT IS WE DO. WE WIN," a light bulb would've gone on in his head and he would've worked out some insanely incredible deal for an all-star defenseman. But, as it is, he seems almost like an imposter these days. This whole build-from-within line - so transparently contrived it almost boggles my mind.

I guess it must be my age then. I was on this forum when Shanahan left for New York and Yzerman retired. Everyone on this forum lost it because we didn't replace them with some wild trade that would've worked on NHL07 or an overpriced UFA. And then we replaced Legace with this awful old guy named Hasek. We simply went with what we had at made it to the Western Conference finals that season and all was well. So I guess I'm resistant to that "sky is falling" mentality...

So "Ah, yes, this familiar dance." is correct.

Edited by DSM, 22 January 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[rrasco]

See post #70 where I tell you exactly what I would have done.  Or you could dig back through old threads where I repeatedly argued for signing Matt Carle AND Bryan Allen for less than we eventually DID OFFER for Suter.  Or even older threads were I repeatedly argued for signing James Wisniewski.  Holy s***, there's three top four defensemen I wanted who aren't named Ryan Suter and who are all currently playing top minutes for their respective teams. 

 

Repeatedly argued to sign a James Wisniewski who refused to sign with Detroit?  Good luck with that one.

[Carman]

That's exactly the problem though, you get what you pay for when it comes to aging defensemen.  Yes, he signed a bunch of cheap contracts (well not necessarily considering he overpaid for Ericsson and Quincey) and now we have a cheap defense.  If you want top flight talent, and you aren't currently developing it, then you have to pay for it.  We didn't, so therefore we don't.

 

That's the thing Carle, and Allen are not top flight talent. They would be here for an extended period of time taking up considerable cap hits. Carle just wouldn't fit with what we need, Carle is an offensive guy, that makes a ton of errors. Compare him to White, he might score slighty more, but it's not much, and White is much more reliable. Not to mention the difference in salaries, I would easily rather have White's .37 PPG for 2.8 than Carle's .43 PPG for 5.5.

 

I would much rather Holland sign smart deals in free agency, than just sign whoever is available to long term contracts because of a short term problem. And I'd love to know what you think constitutes top flight talent? Because by all stats, and sources Brendan Smith is about as good of a defensive prospect that there is outside the NHL coming into the year.

[kipwinger]

Repeatedly argued to sign a James Wisniewski who refused to sign with Detroit?  Good luck with that one.

 

He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started.  Might want to be accurate the next time.

[DSM]

 
He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started.  Might want to be accurate the next time.

He didn't have to sign with Columbus. He would've become a free agent if he hadn't have signed and I'm sure he and his agent knew that.

[kipwinger]

That's the thing Carle, and Allen are not top flight talent. They would be here for an extended period of time taking up considerable cap hits. Carle just wouldn't fit with what we need, Carle is an offensive guy, that makes a ton of errors. Compare him to White, he might score slighty more, but it's not much, and White is much more reliable. Not to mention the difference in salaries, I would easily rather have White's .37 PPG for 2.8 than Carle's .43 PPG for 5.5.

 

I would much rather Holland sign smart deals in free agency, than just sign whoever is available to long term contracts because of a short term problem. And I'd love to know what you think constitutes top flight talent? Because by all stats, and sources Brendan Smith is about as good of a defensive prospect that there is outside the NHL coming into the year.

 

Forwards

Johan Franzen$3,954,545

Pavel Datsyuk$6,700,000

Damien Brunner $1,300,000

Valtteri Filppula $3,000,000

Henrik Zetterberg$6,083,333

Gustav Nyquist $875,000

Danny Cleary $2,800,000

Darren Helm$2,125,000

Todd Bertuzzi$2,075,000

Drew Miller $875,000

Justin Abdelkader$1,800,000

Jordin Tootoo$1,900,000

   

Patrick Eaves$1,200,000

 

Defensemen  

Niklas Kronwall$4,750,000

James Wisniewski$5,500,000

Matt Carle$5,500,000

Bryan Allen$3,500,000

Brendan Smith $875,000

Jonathan Ericsson$3,250,000

       

 

Goaltenders

Jonas Gustavsson$1,500,000

Jimmy Howard

 

 

Total payroll: 61.8 million.  More than enough to give guys raises next season.  And if you need to clear a little more money, buy out Bert, Cleary, or Ericsson and replace them with Sheahan, Andersson, or Lashoff.

Edited by kipwinger, 22 January 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Dabura]

I guess it must be my age then. I was on this forum when Shanahan left for New York and Yzerman retired. Everyone on this forum lost it because we didn't replace them with some wild trade that would've worked on NHL07 or an overpriced UFA. And then we replaced Legace with this awful old guy named Hasek. We simply went with what we had at made it to the Western Conference finals that season and all was well. So I guess I'm resistant to that "sky is falling" mentality...

So "Ah, yes, this familiar dance." is correct.

 

No hard feelings. It just always seems to boil down to "Well, who would you suggest?" - which is, I think, beside the point. I mean, it's a good conversation-starter, but I'm not keen on the idea that saying Holland was unprepared (or, at least, underprepared) makes me beholden to name some people, or else my contention holds no water. Now, granted, you might not be saying it's so. But there are people here who will make, and have made, the argument. And I think it's lame.

 

Holland's the best GM in the NHL, not me. And that's the point. Start acting like it, Ken!

[Nightfall]

Ah, yes, this familiar dance. This is where I suggest two or three people and you shoot them down one by one because "Yeah, but" and "Well, but" and so on and so forth.

 

I don't think Holland is stupid. Actually, I think he's bloody brilliant. That, my friends, is why I'm so WTF-ish over his recent decisions (or lack thereof) re: our D corps. I almost feel like, if someone had just punched him in the face and said, "KEN. REMEMBER WHAT IT IS WE DO. WE WIN," a light bulb would've gone on in his head and he would've worked out some insanely incredible deal for an all-star defenseman. But, as it is, he seems almost like an imposter these days. This whole build-from-within line - so transparently contrived it almost boggles my mind.

 

So, there are no excuses.  Ken Holland was expected to just pull a rabbit out of a hat, pull a gun on agents, or pull a gun on GMs and force them to come to Detroit.  Good to know.

 

IMHO, Ken Holland has done everything in his power to bring in a great team and great players.  I really don't know what you expect, other than for him to blackmail players to come to Detroit or to literally trade scraps to GMs for top talent.

[DSM]

 
Left Wingers
Centers
Right Wingers
Johan Franzen$3,954,545
Pavel Datsyuk$6,700,000
Damien Brunner
Valtteri Filppula
Henrik Zetterberg$6,083,333
Gustav Nyquist
Danny Cleary
Darren Helm$2,125,000

35+
Todd Bertuzzi$2,075,000
Drew Miller
Justin Abdelkader$1,800,000
Jordin Tootoo$1,900,000
   
Patrick Eaves$1,200,000
     
Left Defense
Right Defense
Niklas Kronwall$4,750,000
James Wisniewski$5,500,000
Matt Carle$5,500,000
Bryan Allen$3,500,000
Brendan Smith
Jonathan Ericsson$3,250,000
       
 
Goaltenders
Jonas Gustavsson$1,500,000
Jimmy Howard
 
 
 
Total payroll: 61.8 million.  More than enough to given guys raises next season.  And if you need to clear a little more money, buy out Bert, Cleary, or Ericsson.

You do know the cap is only going to be about $64.3mil next year right?

[kipwinger]

He didn't have to sign with Columbus. He would've become a free agent if he hadn't have signed and I'm sure he and his agent knew that.

 

You're right, nobody has to sign with anybody they don't want to.  However, he did sign with the team that traded for his rights, as free agents frequently do.  Of course there's no guarantee that he would have signed with us, but we don't know because we didn't try to trade for him.  However, there's at least some reason to believe that a player may want to sign in his home state (Parise), especially if they made him feel like they really wanted him by trading for him, slightly overpaying for him, and signing him to a 6 year contract (which wouldn't have been bad considering he was 27 at the time).

 

If you think landing Wisniewski was impossible ask yourself this: How did the lowliest team in the league, with a terrible GM and no money, prestige, or future prospects, manage to do it?

[puckbags]

If Huskins can either teach some of these guys to stay at home and play their positions or cover for their asses when they are out of position its ok in my book.  Did none of these young guys watch #5 play back there? He's getting a one way because it's quite obvious Holland thinks that Huskins is a better player then someone in our top 6.

[Carman]

I'm having trouble getting behind seeing that as our defense for 5+ years. That's almost worse in my eyes than our current situation. Who would kill penalities on the back-end? Allen and Ericsson? Why would you get rid of White? Would Kronwall-Wisniewski play well defensively together given both have tendencies to pinch a ton.

 

I'd prefer our current situation. We have options to explore trades, be near the top of every top tier free agent defensemans list.

[Andy Pred 48]

internal blue line for the 16/17 season;

 

Brendan Smith 6'1" 198lb L

Max Nicastro 6'3" 225lb R

Ryan Sproul 6'3" 200lb R

Xavier Ouellet 6'1" 190lb L

Richard Nedomlel 6'5" 231lb L

Alexei Marchenko 6'2" 190lb R

Mattias Bäckman 6'2" 180lb L

Adam Almqvist 5'11" 175lb L

Mike McKee 6'4" 230lb L

 

Lets be honest that all these wont make the roster, but with projected talent pool we have here i wouldnt be too worried seeing it as our future D.

What i would maybe do is revert McKee back to a winger and also maybe Nedomlel as well. These 2 on the fourth line  with maybe Sheahan

as the centre would make interesting viewing to say the least and give us that feared line we once had.We also have the possability of a L & R

combo on each pairing.

[kipwinger]

You do know the cap is only going to be about $64.3mil next year right?

 

right, and we are under that, and could clear more with buyouts.

[hillbillywingsfan]

He didn't refuse to sign with Detroit, his rights were traded to Columbus and he signed with them before free agency started.  Might want to be accurate the next time.

If I remember correctly He did make a comment saying he didn't want to play with Detroit. I may be mistaken.

[DSM]

 
No hard feelings. It just always seems to boil down to "Well, who would you suggest?" - which is, I think, beside the point. I mean, it's a good conversation-starter, but I'm not keen on the idea that saying Holland was unprepared (or, at least, underprepared) makes me beholden to name some people, or else my contention holds no water. Now, granted, you might not be saying it's so. But there are people here who will make, and have made, the argument. And I think it's lame.
 
Holland's the best GM in the NHL, not me. And that's the point. Start acting like it, Ken!

I do agree to an extent. But I also think Ken Holland is still acting like the best GM. I think not spending a forture on the limited Dmen available this past summer or trading some of our depth and or future was a smart move on his part. Just obviously not a popular one.

[kipwinger]

I'm having trouble getting behind seeing that as our defense for 5+ years. That's almost worse in my eyes than our current situation. Who would kill penalities on the back-end? Allen and Ericsson? Why would you get rid of White? Would Kronwall-Wisniewski play well defensively together given both have tendencies to pinch a ton.

 

I'd prefer our current situation. We have options to explore trades, be near the top of every top tier free agent defensemans list.

 

Ericsson and Allen are both VERY effective penalty killers.  Who knows about Wiz and Kronwall, but it can't be worse than the glut of offensive minded defensemen we already have under contract.

[Greatness=PavelDatsyuk]

If I remember correctly He did make a comment saying he didn't want to play with Detroit. I may be mistaken.

Yeah, I remember that too.

[DSM]

 
You're right, nobody has to sign with anybody they don't want to.  However, he did sign with the team that traded for his rights, as free agents frequently do.  Of course there's no guarantee that he would have signed with us, but we don't know because we didn't try to trade for him.  However, there's at least some reason to believe that a player may want to sign in his home state (Parise), especially if they made him feel like they really wanted him by trading for him, slightly overpaying for him, and signing him to a 6 year contract (which wouldn't have been bad considering he was 27 at the time).
 
If you think landing Wisniewski was impossible ask yourself this: How did the lowliest team in the league, with a terrible GM and no money, prestige, or future prospects, manage to do it?

No one can relly answer that except Wisniewski. Maybe he's buddies with someone on the team and wanted to play with them. Who knows?

 
right, and we are under that, and could clear more with buyouts.

You can't just buy people out to make room for huge contracts. This isn't NHL13.