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Richdg

worse before better.....

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Some more:

6. I am a guy that likes balance on a team. I don't want the "BroadStreet bullies'. Nor do i like a team of Hudler's.... You dress 12 forwards every game. In an ideal world 6 of those forwards should be big physical guys and 6 smaller speed/skill guys. Those 12 should also be equal RH and LH shooters. Then even more ideal you would have 3 big RH shots, 3 big LH shots, 3 RH smaller speed/skill guys, and 3 LH smaller speed/skill guys. Then you can mix and match up as needed. same thing on D. the 6 Dmen should always be 3 RH shots and 3 LH shots. With a mix of size, speed, skill, strength and grit.

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We went through this same crap in 06/07 after we lost Shanahan/Yzerman. The team will be fine. No need to sell the team when we are a whopping three games into the season.

Also, you put way too much emphasis on the draft. It's really hard to build a team throught the draft alone unless you are consistently drafting in the top 5, which means you have to suck for a long time. Worked for Pittsburgh and Edmonton. Drafting players is always a gamble. Ask Thomas McCollum, or even Angelo Esposito...

I agree, we don't need to have a fire sale. Most of the troubles this team have can be fixed this season and as far as I'm concerned the only LEGITIMATE problem is the defense. The offense is struggling because they are having to play back and cover for a shoddy defense. Fix the defense and the forwards can get back to doing their job, scoring first and being defensively responsible second.

Also, the PP and PK will get better too. Our PP is awful, but until yesterday our guys had exactly 5 practices to learn an entirely new system...obviously there's going to be some hiccups. They've had two more days to work on it now, and so I expect it will improve. Same with the PK, when you're struggling you need practice, which until this week they haven't been able to do.

The only real concern is the defense, which Holland will address by the deadline, if not before.

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Yes that was true.... before the cap. The 2 things that attract players are winning and money. But yet this past season we where not able to get the top UFA's. In fact it has been 6? years since we were able to get one of the top UFA's in the market. Hossa was the last real big timer that I remember. The rest of our signings have been second teir types.

Another thing to keep in mind is under the new CBA the max for resigning a FA is 8 years vs only 7 years for signing some other teams UFA. That will do 2 things: 1. increase the trade value for UFA's-they can get longer contracts and more money by resigning 2. increase trades. Expect this to be explioted by teams.

They may not have attracted a lot of UFAs recently, but they have been able to keep their own players from going elsewhere and have been able to do so at reasonable prices.

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Every wing looks promising in their first game, from Kyle Calder to Derek Meech. I remember someone here saying Lebda was going to be "elite".

None of which takes away from the fact that 3 games is still a bigger sample size than 1 game, especially when it's more like 3 seasons that the Wings have been in their slow but inexorable decline.. About the same length of time that you' 've been in denial.

Wow; you're really not going to give up here, are you? Let's examine two separate comparison scenarios.

The first scenario examines, in respect to the data, the likelihood modifiers attached to the conclusions.

  • I like what I see about Lashoff. We might have a good future defenseman on our hands here!
  • This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!

The second scenario examines the severity of the conclusion. Because simply listing the statements again would make no sense, I'll use a roughly analogous situation instead.

  • This Cuisinart is great! I think I might really like it!"
  • This house sucks! I want to demolish it and build a new one!

Anyway, we're getting really off-topic, so let's return to the discussion at hand.

Edited by Crymson

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Notable teams currently out of a playoff spot.

Detroit Red Wings

Vancouver Canucks

Philadelphia Flyers

New York Rangers

Washington Capitals

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

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Oh those lovable Red Wings. Let's be honest, these first 3 games have been really hard to watch. We as wingnuts have been spoiled over the last 20 years. But, as always happens with dynasty's, we held the same hand for far to long. There is no doubt that moving proven players that help you win championships is hard to do. But we should have done just that. But that is water under the bridge. The other by product of our success is bad drafts. We have a weak farm system. Most of the guys with NHL talent are either here-thanks to the injuries or are 2+ years away. The owrse part is, we are not bad enough to draft in the top 5. IMHO we will end up around 15-just making the PO's this year, and thus missing out on the top end talent that could be in Detroit within a year. So yes, we get to add some more young talent in this years draft, but again most of it is 3+ years away.

So back to the top. We will get worse before we get better. For many of us this will be a hard jagged pill to swallow. But we don't have a lot of choice.

Now is it possible we have one of those wonderfull hot streaks were we win 10 out of 12 games? yes. But we also could have a bad streak where we lose 10 out of 12 as well. In fact, neither would surprise me...

So the real question, where do we go from here? This is what I would do:

1. Let it be known to the rest of the NHL that we are sellers. Everyone is available, for the right price of course. The hard part is, we don't have much in terms of value to get good young talnet back in return. Only 4 guys would fetch much: Z, Dat, Kronwall, and Howard. The only one of that group I wouldn't want to move is Howard, but he is a UFA after the season, so if the price is right, even he could go.

2. My goal in all trades is 3 fold: clear out cap space, pick up young talent, and add draft picks. Capgeek says we have 45 million spent for next season with a 13/14 cap of 64 million. Leaving 19 million to spend. I would prefer to resign Howard-we have nothing else ready to take his place and good G's are hard to find. That will eat up around 5 million to resign him. Leaving us with about 14 million to spend. The goal should be to get to 20+ million to spend in FA after we resign Howard.

3. We have 2 buyouts that we can use, that will not effect the cap. If we can't trade them away, I use the buyouts on Quincey and Franzen. That would give us another 7.7 million to spend.

4. If I am able to trade away datsyuk, then I would resign Filppula. Dat makes about 6.7 million per year and does have trade value. Filppula-who is 7 years younger is a UFA. Per the new CBA, resigning your current players allows you to go to a 8 year contract. Creating a chance for a lower cap hit. Yes, that would mean Filppula is 36 when his contract expires, or 1 year older than datsyuk is now. If the choice is 6 years @ 5 million per or 8 years @ 4 million per, go with the later. That would free up another 2.7 million after moving Dat.

5. If you take a long look at the RW's from top to bottom, you see several positions with glaring holes. For example, we have 0 big RH shooting RW's in the organization. Every RW is small or is a LH shot. We have the same issue on D, only 4 RH Dmen in the organization after this season. Most of which haven't played a single pro hockey game. The closest would be Nicastro, but he is hardly playing for the Griffins. The 3rd area that we are lacking in, is big C's. Unless you count Abdelkader as a C, we just don't have many over 6ft tall.

6. 13/14 Free Agency. We saw how well this worked last year, but this year some things could be different. There are several big under 30 forwards coming up on their UFA years. Most of which are canadians from Onterio. Meaning we are close to their homes. We also will have a nice pile of cash to spend. As of today, we have about 14 million to spend. Buyouts to Q and Franzen adds another 7.7 million to that total. That means we could sign 3 high end UFA's for 7 million per year. If we are able to move guys like Calaicovo, Eaves, bert, and sammy (please someone take them!) that would free up another 8.5+ million to add 1 or 2 more guys to fill some holes. The one glearing position of weakness in this years FA class in RH Dmen under 30. Just are not many available, as in none.

7. As for this years draft, That is my one focus, quality players that are RH shots. be they C's, RW's, or Dmen. For those that have never played, yes the hand of the shooter/passer does matter. It matters a lot. The half a second a guy has to spend turning to shoot or pass makes a huge difference.

Now I am sure some will jump up and down about trading dat or cutting this guy or that. So be it. But and here is the thought. Are we going to win the SC with Dat over the next 2 years? I would bet the house on no. So let's move him. I would bet a forward heavy team with few quality C's like the rangers would love to have him. They have several big young fowards and RH Dmen that would fit us. Same with the Devils. I am sure there are more that are in the same boat. But at the end of the day, the worse thing we can do is to stand pat and hope for something better out of the same parts. It just isn't going to happen.

I was going to post the little yellow dude with the violin, but can't find him.

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Notable teams currently out of a playoff spot.

Detroit Red Wings

Vancouver Canucks

Philadelphia Flyers

New York Rangers

Washington Capitals

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

You forgot:

4) Make trades on NHL13

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Yes that was true.... before the cap. The 2 things that attract players are winning and money. But yet this past season we where not able to get the top UFA's. In fact it has been 6? years since we were able to get one of the top UFA's in the market. Hossa was the last real big timer that I remember. The rest of our signings have been second teir types.

Another thing to keep in mind is under the new CBA the max for resigning a FA is 8 years vs only 7 years for signing some other teams UFA. That will do 2 things: 1. increase the trade value for UFA's-they can get longer contracts and more money by resigning 2. increase trades. Expect this to be explioted by teams.

I don't understand the number of people who can't understand how over priced the Free Agent market is with the lack of high quality players available, and type of contracts that were previously signed, ex) Wisniewski. The next year's contracts have to be more. Also people were complaining about how much Ericsson signed for, but that's what he was worth on the open market. Why would anyone think Holland should over pay for UFA's?

The way to build a winner is through the draft and signing your best players long term. Signing Free Agents for 13 year deals is just insane! Suter and Parise aren't worth that kind of money or term. Plus when the Wild have to resign their own players, all future contracts will be based off of the Sute and Parise contracts. The Wild screwed themselves for 13 years!

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Notable teams currently out of a playoff spot.

Detroit Red Wings

Vancouver Canucks

Philadelphia Flyers

New York Rangers

Washington Capitals

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

I have no intentions of debating sample sizes when projecting end of season results. I totally agree that evaluating any team 3 games in to this ********-wart of a season could be considered jumping the gun a bit.

However, The Rangers, Canucks, and to a lesser extent, the Flyers all have less concerns "on paper" than the Wings do. It's easier to blow off their slow starts. A lot of us were concerned with this team coming into this season, so the bad start is less of an anomoly and more of a possible projection of things to come.

Let me conclude though, before any of the optimists loose their s*** about what I said above, I am by no means going to bet against this team. Just simply trying to point out that there is a difference, on paper anyway, between this team vs the Rangers, Canucks, and I'd even say the Flyers. So, with all due repsoct and good-natured intentions, I'm not sure that you can use this as leverage when making your point.

Edited by rick zombo

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Agree with the 15-20 game timeframe. The thing is, with this lineup, so many of the "intangibles" will count more than they have in many years for the Wings: chemistry, teamwork, passion, coaching, leadership, etc. If these aren't noticeable factors after 15-20 games, then commence bitching and moaning.

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Notable teams currently out of a playoff spot.

Detroit Red Wings

Vancouver Canucks

Philadelphia Flyers

New York Rangers

Washington Capitals

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

You don't need to watch 30 games to know and understand that the RW's are:

1. old

2. small

3. slow

4. have declining skills

5. injury prone.

All of which was true before the season, is true now, and will be true throughout the season, baring trade. Those 5 things together=average to poor team.

PS the other teams you mention are all bigger, younger, stronger, faster, equal or better skill and healthy. Those items combined = good to great team.

Edited by Richdg
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Wow; you're really not going to give up here, are you? Let's examine two separate comparison scenarios.

The first scenario examines, in respect to the data, the likelihood modifiers attached to the conclusions.

  • I like what I see about Lashoff. We might have a good future defenseman on our hands here!
  • This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!

Well, I know that arguing with you is a complete waste of time since your opinions are never ever wrong, so really I should give up, however I would like to point out that neither the OP or myself have said "This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!"

We, like many others on this board see this team as a borderline playoff team, and a team slowly in decline. And that without a major infusion of youth and talent, it is indeed going to get worse before it gets better. You insist on mocking anyone who expresses such an opinion as a hysterical chicken-licken worthy of your scorn instead of offering a constructive answer to the paper-thin defense, aging stars, unmotivated players and lack of blue-chip prospects to replace them.

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It will probably suck for 2-3 more years. During this time we'll see more of our prospects and less of the old guard. It has always been the MO of this team to grow their own players. It's worked very well so far. Philly has tried building their team through free agency and trades, yet they keep falling short. I would rather go through a few years of low expectations than a few years of disappointments.

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It will probably suck for 2-3 more years. During this time we'll see more of our prospects and less of the old guard. It has always been the MO of this team to grow their own players. It's worked very well so far. Philly has tried building their team through free agency and trades, yet they keep falling short. I would rather go through a few years of low expectations than a few years of disappointments.

I think it might get interesting for the Red Wings this summer. Holland has a good amount of cap space to resign our good players and might have some openings to bring in some UFA's from teams that will need to shed salary to get under the lower cap for next season.

Edited by DSM

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I’m just as unhappy as the next guy with the state of the
DRW this year.


Putting a Cup contender on the ice every single year in a

salary cap age is much easier said than done.


As a fan, I will watch this season and be faithful that

changes will be made either at the trade deadline or the off season. The
options are there. Kenny took his best shot at Suter and Parise and it didn’t
happen. That doesn’t mean we should go after whatever’s out there now. The free agent class after this season is just as good and would help the squad majorly. The Ducks can't conceivably keep everyone.
Don’t make team changing moves this season if we don’t realistically have a
chance to compete as well as we would if we can sign others after the season.


Just what I think. We’re a spoiled fan base and expect a Cup

every year, as we should, but is it really realistic in this day & age? Not
every single young talent is going to want to come here. We have to adjust. And
that will take time. It is what it is. But I keep my faith that we will always
be a competitive team, even if this year is a total blow, we will not turn into
the Chicago Blackhawks of the early 2000s.


LGW.



Edited by Ram
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Well, I know that arguing with you is a complete waste of time since your opinions are never ever wrong, so really I should give up, however I would like to point out that neither the OP or myself have said "This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!"

We, like many others on this board see this team as a borderline playoff team, and a team slowly in decline. And that without a major infusion of youth and talent, it is indeed going to get worse before it gets better. You insist on mocking anyone who expresses such an opinion as a hysterical chicken-licken worthy of your scorn instead of offering a constructive answer to the paper-thin defense, aging stars, unmotivated players and lack of blue-chip prospects to replace them.

Bingo. The question is "what does the leadership do about it?" There are only so many answers to that question. We either stand pat, hope for some young guys to develop quickly and a fountain of youth is discovered, or we make trades and sign FA's. It really is only those 2 options. Option 1 scars the hell out of me. We will be right back in the late 70's and early 80's again, after guys like Howe, Redmond, Delveccio, sawchuck, etc...... all left with nothing to replace them. 20 win seasons are not fun. Even in a 48 game schedule....

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Well, I know that arguing with you is a complete waste of time since your opinions are never ever wrong, so really I should give up, however I would like to point out that neither the OP or myself have said "This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!"

We, like many others on this board see this team as a borderline playoff team, and a team slowly in decline. And that without a major infusion of youth and talent, it is indeed going to get worse before it gets better. You insist on mocking anyone who expresses such an opinion as a hysterical chicken-licken worthy of your scorn instead of offering a constructive answer to the paper-thin defense, aging stars, unmotivated players and lack of blue-chip prospects to replace them.

 

I just noticed something...you live in the Shire lol. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

On topic, I kinda want things to get mildly worse for the Wings this year. Already 9 injuries and then only one set to come back next game is Kindl...that speaks for itself. As far as i'm concerned, the Wings need to finish bottom 5 and get McKinnon or Drouin. I don't care for Seth Jones, we have Oulette and Sproul. Franzen and Cleary need to depart asap and Quincey should be traded to the Islanders for a 7th round pick...geez, that's like a 6th round pick! Then Holland needs to convince Getzlaf, Perry or Iginla to come here in the offseason, and it's ok to talk about this already cause in 3 more games the "actual" season would be half done anyways.

If the Wings looked like this next season, I'd be quite happy:

Brunner-Datsyuk-Zetterberg

(McKinnon/Drouin)-Filppula-(Getzlaf/Perry/Iginla)

Nyquist-Helm-Jarnkrok

Abdelkader-Sheahan-Tootoo

Eaves/Miller

Kronwall-Smith

Oulette-Sproul

White-Ericsson

Coliacovo

Howard

MRAZEK

The Wings would definitely be worse now and better after...

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I think it might get interesting for the Red Wings this summer. Holland has a good amount of cap space to resign our good players and might have some openings to bring in some UFA's from teams that will need to shed salary to get under the lower cap for next season.

Without a doubt. Perry and Getzlaf both have contracts coming off the books this year. I'm not sure which D-men are coming in this year, but I'm sure we can plug holes. I'm just excited about ouellette and sproull. Furthermore, this summer we may be signing dekeyser to an elc. It's hilarious how poorly equipped many of us are to deal with a couple years of mediocrity. It really is a testament to how well this team has been run.

Say what?

It has been the Modus operandi (MO)of this team to develop its core players as opposed to acquiring them through through trades and free agency.

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Without a doubt. Perry and Getzlaf both have contracts coming off the books this year. I'm not sure which D-men are coming in this year, but I'm sure we can plug holes. I'm just excited about ouellette and sproull. Furthermore, this summer we may be signing dekeyser to an elc. It's hilarious how poorly equipped many of us are to deal with a couple years of mediocrity. It really is a testament to how well this team has been run.

It has been the Modus operandi (MO)of this team to develop its core players as opposed to acquiring them through through trades and free agency.

 

I'm so well equipped for this season of mediocrity that I find myself shrugging off goals against the wings for the greater good of their future.

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I just noticed something...you live in the Shire lol. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

On topic, I kinda want things to get mildly worse for the Wings this year. Already 9 injuries and then only one set to come back next game is Kindl...that speaks for itself. As far as i'm concerned, the Wings need to finish bottom 5 and get McKinnon or Drouin. I don't care for Seth Jones, we have Oulette and Sproul. Franzen and Cleary need to depart asap and Quincey should be traded to the Islanders for a 7th round pick...geez, that's like a 6th round pick! Then Holland needs to convince Getzlaf, Perry or Iginla to come here in the offseason, and it's ok to talk about this already cause in 3 more games the "actual" season would be half done anyways.

If the Wings looked like this next season, I'd be quite happy:

Brunner-Datsyuk-Zetterberg

(McKinnon/Drouin)-Filppula-(Getzlaf/Perry/Iginla)

Nyquist-Helm-Jarnkrok

Abdelkader-Sheahan-Tootoo

Eaves/Miller

Kronwall-Smith

Oulette-Sproul

White-Ericsson

Coliacovo

Howard

MRAZEK

The Wings would definitely be worse now and better after...

Yea... That's some big dreaming.

Andersson will be the 4th line center before Sheahan gets it. Tatar would get a shot where you have Jarnkrok before Jarnkrok gets it.

Sproul and Oulette need to hit the AHL and the gym for a year before they can be considered regulars in the NHL.

Mrazek as backup is an absolute waste. The guy is going to be the clear starter in GR for atleast the next 2 seasons. Gustavsson will be fine riding the pine.

There's also no way Iginla would come to the Red Wings if they finish in the bottom 5 this season. He wants a cup and has played on enough bad teams in Calgary.

However, try this roster in a season on NHL13 and let us know how it goes. I'm curious.

Edited by DSM

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Mrazek as backup is an absolute waste. The guy is going to be the clear starter in GR for atleast the next 2 seasons. Gustavsson will be fine riding the pine.

There's also no way Iginla would come to the Red Wings if they finish in the bottom 5 this season. He wants a cup and has played on enough bad teams in Calgary.

Is Mrazek waiver-exempt for the next two seasons? I thought Monster was a UFA after next season.

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Is Mrazek waiver-exempt for the next two seasons? I thought Monster was a UFA after next season.

Yes. I think Mrazek is actually waiver exempt for the next THREE season, not including the one we are in...

Gustavsson becomes a UFA on July 1, 2014. So yes.

Edited by DSM

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It has been the Modus operandi (MO)of this team to develop its core players as opposed to acquiring them through through trades and free agency.

I know what MO stands for, I'm challenging the idea you're putting forward. This "dynasty" of the past couple decades or so has most definitely lurved teh free agents and trades. It's why Hollland is beating the we-can't-do-that-anymore;-we-have-to-build-from-within-now drum.

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I know what MO stands for, I'm challenging the idea you're putting forward. This "dynasty" of the past couple decades or so has most definitely lurved teh free agents and trades. It's why Hollland is beating the we-can't-do-that-anymore;-we-have-to-build-from-within-now drum.

I'm well aware of our history of bringing in complimentary pieces through trade and free agency. But, when was the last time the wings' premier player at a position was acquired in such a way? Every team uses players they never drafted. I'm just making a distinction between building through free agency and plugging holes.

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