31 replies to this topic

[puckbags]

Been busy the last few days, I am sure some are glad. but i would like to finish up my thoughts here. As of today, with the players we have and assuming everyone is healthy, the best possible lineup I can come up with is:

franzen-Z-sammy

bert-dat-Fil

Nyquist-Abby-brunner

Sheahan-helm-22

 

Kronwall-E

Smith-Q

Lashoff-kindl

 

Howard in the net.

Keeping Emmerton, Miller, Huskins, and Gus as the backups. Everyone else can go.

Now from here, I would do the following in order:

1. resign Howard-6 mill, Fil-5 mill, and brunner-3 mil. That pretty much uses up the full 64.3 million for next years cap. Leaving just enough to resign lashoff and Smith in the off season.

2. Get on the damn phone with Colorado. offer: Nyquist, McCollom, eaves, and our 1st in 2014 for Ryan O'Reilly. If they agree, YES!!!!!!! Then buy out Colavacio.

3. Once #2 is complete, now we talk to the NYR. Datsyuk and Almquist (spelling) for kreider, bickel, and sauer.

Once those 3 things are done we are looking at the following lineup for 2013/2014:

Franzen-Z-sammy

Kreider-Fil-Bert

Abby-O'reilly-brunner

Sheahan-Helm-22

emmerton and Andersson

 

Kronwall-E

Smith-Bickel

Lashoff-sauer

Huskins

 

Howard

Gus

That leaves us with a payroll of 60.3 million, and we have 4 million left over.

We also still have Quincey on the roster. try to move him for a 2013 draft pick, 3rd round is just fine. If we wish to free up a few more dollars to spend and go after a big name UFA, buyout either sammy-3 million of franzen-4 million. That would give us about 7 million to spend on 1 big name UFA.

Also you may have noticed we now have 2 RH Dmen to pair up with some of our guys. Great! We have a huge shortage of RH players in our organization.

 

back to the O'Reilly deal for a couple of thoughts. 1. he will be our number 1 C in a few years. Right now he can play on the 3rd line with zero pressure, and we once again actually have 3 good scoring lines. As for the why a 2014 1st, simple. The 2013 draft is beleived to be as deep if not deeper than the 2003 draft. The 2014 draft is weaker.

 

If we want another RH Dman, then we can move E in the off season. Then we would have 3 pairs of D, each with a LH and a RH shooter.

 

I will throw out a draft later. but right now i want to get as many picks as possible for the 2013 draft. if we can get anything out of: Miller, Cleary, Colavacio, sammy, and franzen, do it. The first 4 you might be able to get a 6th/7th round pick from a playoff bound team. Do so. Quincey might get you a 3rd, and franzen could get a 2nd/3rd. Move their contracts/salaries, and take the picks. I would love to walk into the draft with 1 1st, 1 2nd, 3 3rds, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, and 2 or 3 7ths. Use the 6th's and 7th's to move up in the 3rd, 4th, and/or 5th round.

Bingo!

 

You have to be on some kind of uppers.  Holy crap.

 

You're like that person on FB who post's a status update and then is the first person to respond to their own update 

Edited by puckbags, 05 February 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Richdg]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be "that guy", but....are you trolling?  Are these actual scenarios that you think should happen?  Again, I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, I am genuinely curious because the things you propose are quite....out there.  

 

I mean, you lost me at "...the best possible lineup I could come up with" with Sammy was on the 1st line while Brunner is on the third.  What is the logic behind this?  Brunner has been playing very well on the top 2 line this season, why would "the best you can come up with" have him suddenly get demoted to the third line?

 

As far as the trades go, I agree that Kenny needs to make a move or two- key words move or two.  What you are suggesting is shaking up the entire lineup.  I hate to break this to you, but these things don't happen in real life.  The only situations in which a rebuild of the magnitude that you are proposing are if a team is bottom 5 of the league annually with no glimpse of hope for improvement, and GM mode in NHL13.

 

The Wings needs, IMO, a top pairing Dman and some scoring wingers for the bottom six.  It would be nice if Kenny could get a top 6 scorer as well, but I think the other two needs should be addressed first.  After that, you're looking at a playoff contending team, I think.

 

 I wish Kenny would have signed Steve Sullivan instead of Sammy - the worst signing he made IMO.   

 

Honestly, as far as trade-bait goes, I think everyone is expendable except for Dats, Z, and Brunner.  Z and Dats for obvious reasons and Brunner because he is a young scoring (possibly cheap) winger.  I used to have Kronner on that list, but honestly I don't think he can meet the expectations that have been put on him as our go-to Dman.  That being said, I think he should only be moved if a top tier Dman is coming back in return. 

 

This is my thinking process, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good thing that neither of us are the Wings GM lol.

Some things in your response. I only have 2 trades, the rest is mearly clearing out crap. Cleary and Miller are UFA's and gone 1 way or another after the season. mursak is a rfa and could be allowed to walk. Huskins is a UFA as well, but I would like to keep him. Fil, brunner, and Howard are all UFA's and should be resigned. So, like I said there are only 2 moves.

It still comes back to the same problem. if we want to get something of value, you have to give up something of value. Kronwall has a full NTC, Z is our captain, and Datsyuk. That is really all we have of value. The rest would only get draft picks or career AHL guys. So what about FA? well, if we resign Howard, fil and brunner, there isn't much money left to do it. Not to mention, there are no sure things in FA. Just because we want and offer Getzelf, or Perry, or Horton, or Clarkston etc.... Doesn't mean they will sign. See Sutar and Parise last year. It has been 5 or 6 years now since our last big name FA signing-Hossa.

You have to be on some kind of uppers.  Holy crap.

 

You're like that person on FB who post's a status update and then is the first person to respond to their own update 

yet you still have to post. Deep thoughts take time. You should try it sometime....lol

[wingedominance13]

Wow. Speechless at the effort it took to wrote that all down.

[DSM]

Wait, you included Thomas McCollum in a trade?

 

Oh boy...

[Richdg]

Ok draft time.... Thought about a new thread, but then the forum police complain about having to many threads on a forum. oddest thing I ever heard of. But whatever.

So let's look forward a few years. Lets say it in now August 1, 2018-5 seasons from now. We currently have only 3 players signed that long. Franzen-then 39, Z then 38, and Kronwall then 37. Between them they we be making 14 million per year or eating up 20% of or cap space, give our take a bit. we have several Dmen that should still be here and hopefully developed by then: Ericsson 34, Kindl 31, Smith 29, lashoof 28, Deleyser 9yes I think we sign him) 28, and De Haas 24, all LHed shots. From the right side the only legit long term prospect looks like Sproul 25. yes we have jensen 28, marchenko 26, and Nicastro 28, but I am not sold on any of them yet. That makes 8 guys that should be in the NHL producing, not including any future picks. not a bad group to be building from. Only 3 of the 8 over 30. 7 of the 8 6-2 or taller.

At g we should be set as well. Howard should still be around and playing well. he isn't a speed tender so should be performing at a high level. plus we have marzck (spelling). Howard will be in his early 30 and marz mid 20's.

Forwards is much more of a concern. We seem to have 2 types of forwards: small european skilled guys or larger NA checkers. Very few that can play a total game. by total game I am talking 25 goals, 60+ points, 80 PIM's that skates wel and plays D. Almost all of our forwards are also LHed. Only 5 in our entire system are RH: Hudon, Jarnkrok, frk, Callahan, and Pulkkinen.

looking at the potential forward group there are 10 guys that I see in the top 5 lines in detroit and top 2 in GR: Tvrdon, McKee (yes he is playing D in junior, but fits much better as a LW), Abdelkader, Andersson (maybe) Zetterberg if he has anything left, helm, Sheahan, Filppula, Frk, and callahan. Yes I am sure there will be 1 or 2 more that develop and make it, and some of the guys I listed will be gone: released, traded, get hurt, price themselves out of our range etc....

All that being said, we have a draft in June. Every site known to mankind has every player ranked in different spots. The deeper you go, the more range there is, so please don't waste the time saying playing so and so is ranked higher/lower than that. It varies greatly.

Here is what i would like to see, based on no trades and we finish in the middle of the pack.

1st round:

with the 18th pick the detroit Red wings take Valentin Zykov RW/C. 6-1/215.

2nd round:

with the 48th pick the DRW take: Mike McCarron RW 6-5/230.

3rd round:

with the 78th pick the DRW take: John Hayden C 6-3/210.

4th round:

with the blah blah blah: Jerret Smith D 6-2/200.

5th round:

Parker Reno D 6-2/200.

6th round:

Sergey Kuptsov LW 6-2/215.

7th round:

Jordan DeKort G 6-4/190.

 

Yes everyone of the skaters but Kuptsov is RHed.

This is also a very very dep draft. many scouts are talking as good if not better than 2003. That being said, anything we can do to pick up some extra 2nd and 3rd round picks only adds to the depth and talent, and competition for playing time. Those are good things. if I can spin off Franzen for an extra pick between 50 and 70, do it asap! Quincey for a pick between 80 and 100, DONE!

There is one other guy that i would target with those extra picks. Move into the bottom of the 1st if I have to to get him. That is Hudson Fasching C/RW 6-2/215 another RH shot.

If this was our draft we could then see a lineup in 2018 that looks like this:

 

Tvrdon 6-2/210 25-Zetterberg 5-11/190 38-Filppula 6-0/195 34 

Kuptsov 6-2/215 23-Haydon 6-3/210 23-McCarron 6-5/230 23

McKee 6-5/230 25-Fasching 6-2/215 23-Zykov 6-2/215 23

Abdelkader 6-1/220 31-Helm 5-11/190 31-Sheahan 6-2/215 27

Andersson 6-2/210 and Callahan 6-0/200 27

 

Ericsson 6-4/220 34-Sproul 6-3/200 25

Smith 6-2/200 29-Lashoff 6-3/210 28

Dekeyser 6-3/200 28-Kindl 6-3/215 31

De Haas 6-4/210

Yes Kronwall could still be playing instead of Kindl. 

 

Last thoughts on this. If we were so lucky as to actually draft some of these guys, spend our money here, get them signed and have them play in Toledo for 1.5 to 2 years, then GR for the same amount of time. get them playing on lines now and have them grow and develop together.

If by some chance of fate, we actually make either/both of the trades I mentioned above, now add in O'Rielly, Krieder, Bickle, and Sauer to this lineup, and we once again become a loaded team.

Now I realize this is just some crazy thoughts from a accused troll, but just imagine for a few minutes. There is some method to my madness. Yes i understand that Holland has some serious man love for small european fowards. Got it. But still, think a bit and dare to dream......  

[FlashyG]

• Datsyuk should not and will not be traded..
• Samuelsson should not and will not be on the first line...
• Franzen's contract is too long, but its not a bad contract, you will not find many players who will produce the #'s he will for a lesser cap hit, the ones you do find will not be traded...
• The Wings will not be getting any RFA's, any offer we make will be matched and Colorado won't trade O'Reilly unless they have no hope at all of re-signing him
• NHL 13 isn't real life or a real life representation of how hockey management works....
• Projecting the roster as far ahead as 2018 is a lesson in futility.

[Richdg]

• Datsyuk should not and will not be traded..
• Samuelsson should not and will not be on the first line...
• Franzen's contract is too long, but its not a bad contract, you will not find many players who will produce the #'s he will for a lesser cap hit, the ones you do find will not be traded...
• The Wings will not be getting any RFA's, any offer we make will be matched and Colorado won't trade O'Reilly unless they have no hope at all of re-signing him
• NHL 13 isn't real life or a real life representation of how hockey management works....
• Projecting the roster as far ahead as 2018 is a lesson in futility.

Futility you say? So every NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, NCAA team is exercising futility? Every corporation in the world is just wasting their time? Every resposable household is just winging it, and hoping their is money for the kids to go to college or to retire someday? this is what is called startegic planning, and everyone, repeat everyone does it. It comes in many forms. a 1 year plan, 3 year plan, 5 year plan, 10 year plan, 20 year plan etc... In a day an age with a salary cap, it becomes even more important.

 

You also cleary didn't read and understand what I have said. i didn't say make an offer to an RFA, although if that chance arises, we should. I said make a trade for O'reilly. No, he doesn't look to be resigning with Col. and all the rumors say they are far apart. If we can deal for him, we should. can we? Who the hell knows. but again, that is what the GM is supposed to be doing. making calls and finding ways to get better.

 

As for the notion that datsyuk can't be traded, answer: gretzky. he was, so anyone can be. Without a major infusion of talent, young talent prefered, we will not win a SC with him here again. Now there are 3 ways you can pick up talent: draft-takes 3-5 years to be ready, UFA's very expensive and is a total crap shoot, and trades. That is it. Talent doesn't drop from the sky and magicaly appear. We have limited cap space, if we resign Filppula, Howard and Brunner, and limited high end pieces to move via trade. between NTC's, age, and bad contracts, That really only leaves datsyuk as a piece that can be moved for some young pieces. Like it or not, but it is true. Now will it happen? i wouldn't hold my breath. it would take some major balls to do it, and at this stage of his career, I don't see Holland being that bold.

[FlashyG]

Futility you say? So every NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, NCAA team is exercising futility? Every corporation in the world is just wasting their time? Every resposable household is just winging it, and hoping their is money for the kids to go to college or to retire someday? this is what is called startegic planning, and everyone, repeat everyone does it. It comes in many forms. a 1 year plan, 3 year plan, 5 year plan, 10 year plan, 20 year plan etc... In a day an age with a salary cap, it becomes even more important.

 

You also cleary didn't read and understand what I have said. i didn't say make an offer to an RFA, although if that chance arises, we should. I said make a trade for O'reilly. No, he doesn't look to be resigning with Col. and all the rumors say they are far apart. If we can deal for him, we should. can we? Who the hell knows. but again, that is what the GM is supposed to be doing. making calls and finding ways to get better.

 

As for the notion that datsyuk can't be traded, answer: gretzky. he was, so anyone can be. Without a major infusion of talent, young talent prefered, we will not win a SC with him here again. Now there are 3 ways you can pick up talent: draft-takes 3-5 years to be ready, UFA's very expensive and is a total crap shoot, and trades. That is it. Talent doesn't drop from the sky and magicaly appear. We have limited cap space, if we resign Filppula, Howard and Brunner, and limited high end pieces to move via trade. between NTC's, age, and bad contracts, That really only leaves datsyuk as a piece that can be moved for some young pieces. Like it or not, but it is true. Now will it happen? i wouldn't hold my breath. it would take some major balls to do it, and at this stage of his career, I don't see Holland being that bold.

 

Corporations and households aren't sports franchises so that comparison is as ridiculous as the idea of trading Pavel Datsyuk. Strategic Planning does not include making a fantasy roster out of guys that aren't even professional athletes yet. You can't possibly believe NCAA teams are projecting who will be on their team 5 years in advance, That would mean scouting athletes as young as 13-14 years old. Long term strategic planning for a pro sports team would involve planning around those signed into the year in question so the Wings 2018 Roster would have only 3 players on it, Zetterberg, Franzen and Kronwall. Outside of that it would be blank and it would be filled in as we got closer to 2018.

 

The Illitch family might have a 20 year plan for the team's finances, but there is no GM who has a roster plan for 20 years involving players who are toddlers or not even born yet. As I said...its a lesson in futitily. The cap also has no bearing on the plan that far ahead as it will change drastically between now and then...cap projections would be done year to year as would all roster decisions.

 

I know you said make a trade for O'Reilly, but Colorado isn't going to trade him unless he comes out and publicly says he'll never play for them again. Its also a bad idea because we'll have to sign him if we trade for him and his demands are over 5 million a year on a multi year deal.

 

I didn't say Datsyuk could not be traded...I said he should not and will not be traded. The Wings are not the Oilers and they aren't so far into debt that they need to trade their best player for cash to keep the team afloat. They show loyalty to those that have been loyal to them. 

 

Your final paragraph is among the most ridiculous things I've ever read...you propose that the best way to get an infusion of talent to win another cup with Datsyuk on the roster is to trade Datsyuk for said talent.

Edited by FlashyG, 12 February 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[Richdg]

Corporations and households aren't sports franchises so that comparison is as ridiculous as the idea of trading Pavel Datsyuk. Strategic Planning does not include making a fantasy roster out of guys that aren't even professional athletes yet. You can't possibly believe NCAA teams are projecting who will be on their team 5 years in advance, That would mean scouting athletes as young as 13-14 years old. Long term strategic planning for a pro sports team would involve planning around those signed into the year in question so the Wings 2018 Roster would have only 3 players on it, Zetterberg, Franzen and Kronwall. Outside of that it would be blank and it would be filled in as we got closer to 2018.

 

The Illitch family might have a 20 year plan for the team's finances, but there is no GM who has a roster plan for 20 years involving players who are toddlers or not even born yet. As I said...its a lesson in futitily. The cap also has no bearing on the plan that far ahead as it will change drastically between now and then...cap projections would be done year to year as would all roster decisions.

 

I know you said make a trade for O'Reilly, but Colorado isn't going to trade him unless he comes out and publicly says he'll never play for them again. Its also a bad idea because we'll have to sign him if we trade for him and his demands are over 5 million a year on a multi year deal.

 

I didn't say Datsyuk could not be traded...I said he should not and will not be traded. The Wings are not the Oilers and they aren't so far into debt that they need to trade their best player for cash to keep the team afloat. They show loyalty to those that have been loyal to them. 

 

Your final paragraph is among the most ridiculous things I've ever read...you propose that the best way to get an infusion of talent to win another cup with Datsyuk on the roster is to trade Datsyuk for said talent.

Um yes they do. in fact i have worked in 2 different universities athletic departments, and they do it all the time. You recruit guys today, for the purpose of them being starters 3, 4, 5 years done the road. That is how it works in every sport. You see if in the NFL every draft. Let's see.... My starting QB is 32, so teams go draft the next starter with the thought of them sitting the bench for 2-4 years and then taking over. GB did it with farve and rodgers. I guarente you that somewhere in RW HQ you can find a chart with dates on it that they project when each and every player needs to be replaced. That is how you develop a draft plan.

yes btw, kids that are 13-14 years old in HS are being recruited by major college programs already. junior hockey does it even younger, which in turn feeds college and pro hockey. This is the way of all sports teams around the world. In europe they have the club levels that feed the highest level. The U15, U17, and U19 teams in soccer, the U19 and U21 teams in rugby. Go look at all the swedish teams. they have teams for every age group, because it all fills/flows to the top like a funnel.

[dirtydangles]

forgetting xavier and backman as d prospects. they go along with smith, lashoff, and sproul as guys who will likely pan out very well. If you add big E and Kronner to that list you have too many dmen. I think at this point we should try to either:

a) trade talented prospects for current talent under 30years old

b) sign some stop gaps on short deals and let our talent develop for a couple years

Option b means we won't be competing for another 2-3 years but we will likely be solid for the future.

Option a means we get guaranteed talent for likely overpayment and can compete earlier but we run into having no nhl ready talent in the pipe for another 5 years.

[FlashyG]

Um yes they do. in fact i have worked in 2 different universities athletic departments, and they do it all the time. You recruit guys today, for the purpose of them being starters 3, 4, 5 years done the road. That is how it works in every sport. You see if in the NFL every draft. Let's see.... My starting QB is 32, so teams go draft the next starter with the thought of them sitting the bench for 2-4 years and then taking over. GB did it with farve and rodgers. I guarente you that somewhere in RW HQ you can find a chart with dates on it that they project when each and every player needs to be replaced. That is how you develop a draft plan.

yes btw, kids that are 13-14 years old in HS are being recruited by major college programs already. junior hockey does it even younger, which in turn feeds college and pro hockey. This is the way of all sports teams around the world. In europe they have the club levels that feed the highest level. The U15, U17, and U19 teams in soccer, the U19 and U21 teams in rugby. Go look at all the swedish teams. they have teams for every age group, because it all fills/flows to the top like a funnel.

 

You could be right when it comes to the NCAA, I don't have much knowledge when it comes to US college recruiting. 

 

There is a big difference between what NFL teams like Green Bay did and what you were doing though, The Packers drafted Rodgers then put him on their depth chart and estimated he'd be a starter in a couple years. They didn't have him on their depth chart as their future quarterback 5 years earlier when he was playing quarterback in high school, nor did they while he was starring at Cal. 

 

Teams project when someone might retire, and will often plan to fill that spot via the draft, but while they may have several prospects in mind to take that spot they wouldn't bother slotting them into their projected line-ups until they know if he's even available to them in the draft.

 

Speculating what an entire roster will look like 5 years from now is futile because you have no idea how those players will develop, how many of them will even still be on the team, how high or low the cap will be, what prospects will be available at your draft positions, or what trades you'll be offered etc.

[Richdg]

You could be right when it comes to the NCAA, I don't have much knowledge when it comes to US college recruiting. 

 

There is a big difference between what NFL teams like Green Bay did and what you were doing though, The Packers drafted Rodgers then put him on their depth chart and estimated he'd be a starter in a couple years. They didn't have him on their depth chart as their future quarterback 5 years earlier when he was playing quarterback in high school, nor did they while he was starring at Cal. 

 

Teams project when someone might retire, and will often plan to fill that spot via the draft, but while they may have several prospects in mind to take that spot they wouldn't bother slotting them into their projected line-ups until they know if he's even available to them in the draft.

 

Speculating what an entire roster will look like 5 years from now is futile because you have no idea how those players will develop, how many of them will even still be on the team, how high or low the cap will be, what prospects will be available at your draft positions, or what trades you'll be offered etc.

A couple of things. If I come across as crass once in a while sorry, no offense meant. Second, there is no difference in practice. The NFL doesn't have a minor league system, so their prospects sit the bench on the big club. But every other sport brings guys in, in the hope that some point down the line they are able to take a spot. Most of the time-with high level picks, they have a player in mind for replacement.