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Zetterberg's Great But...


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#41 Johnz96

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

this could have been an interesting thread if it actually showed a real difference in ice time

Their is a small difference and it is consistent over their entire careers. The difference is more significant in the playoffs

2011-12  Z 23:05, D 21:17


2010-11  Z 21:59, D 21:09


2009-10  Z 20:25, D 18:48


2008-09  Z 22:09, D 20:06


2007-08  Z 22:36, D 21:40


2006-07  Z 22:44, D 22:03



#42 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

Their is a small difference and it is consistent over their entire careers. The difference is more significant in the playoffs

2011-12  Z 23:05, D 21:17


2010-11  Z 21:59, D 21:09


2009-10  Z 20:25, D 18:48


2008-09  Z 22:09, D 20:06


2007-08  Z 22:36, D 21:40


2006-07  Z 22:44, D 22:03

 

That is an average of 1 minute 18 seconds more per year, which is not unreasonable. you have to look at who was on what line, injuries, pk time, pp time. its only an extra shift and a half on average


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#43 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

Over his career several people have made reference to how deep Zetterberg's tank is.  The guy's a horse.  So he ends up getting a minute or two more ice time.  

 

Trying to extrapolate that into some meaningful qualitative difference between the two is a stretch.  



#44 Johnz96

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

That is an average of 1 minute 18 seconds more per year, which is not unreasonable. you have to look at who was on what line, injuries, pk time, pp time. its only an extra shift and a half on average

That's 1 min 18s per game. I know it's not a big difference but it is consistent since the lockout. If it was a fluke, Datsyuk would have some years in which he had a little more ice-time. Altogether it's close to 1000 mins difference in games they have both played or the equivalent of almost 50 games. I think Babcock thinks Z is a little better and apparently so does Gretzky. I think Datsyuk is.

And I think this thread is a lot better than some of the doom and gloom ones. There are 30 teams that have the same goal in a league that stresses parity, you have to expect some lean years and we haven't had any in more than 2 decades and I don't think this one will be either.



Over his career several people have made reference to how deep Zetterberg's tank is.  The guy's a horse.  So he ends up getting a minute or two more ice time.  

 

Trying to extrapolate that into some meaningful qualitative difference between the two is a stretch.  

Last year a lot of people here were questioning his effort (I'm not one of those)



#45 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

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#46 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

Their is a small difference and it is consistent over their entire careers. The difference is more significant in the playoffs

2011-12  Z 23:05, D 21:17


2010-11  Z 21:59, D 21:09


2009-10  Z 20:25, D 18:48


2008-09  Z 22:09, D 20:06


2007-08  Z 22:36, D 21:40


2006-07  Z 22:44, D 22:03

I think one of the biggest factors is linemates. Z while not always, has usually played with more defensively responsible guys. Z gets Flip and Cleary, Pav gets Franzen and Bert, that sorta thing. It's a minute or so per game which is what, a shift, maybe one extra one? It's dumb luck and we just need to realize sometimes chance continues for a little while. Another factor is Z's endurance. For all we know there could be something we're not seeing since no one here coaches this team.


Edited by shoobiedoobin, 30 January 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#47 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

That's 1 min 18s per game. I know it's not a big difference but it is consistent since the lockout. If it was a fluke, Datsyuk would have some years in which he had a little more ice-time. Altogether it's close to 1000 mins difference in games they have both played or the equivalent of almost 50 games. I think Babcock thinks Z is a little better and apparently so does Gretzky. I think Datsyuk is.

And I think this thread is a lot better than some of the doom and gloom ones. There are 30 teams that have the same goal in a league that stresses parity, you have to expect some lean years and we haven't had any in more than 2 decades and I don't think this one will be either.



Last year a lot of people here were questioning his effort (I'm not one of those)

 

Who questioned Z's work ethic? He played half the season with a back injury, anyone who questions his work ethic is misinformed and not very wise.


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#48 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

^To his credit people did question his work ethic. When we're losing we panic and overreact, it's not unrealistic to see some of us do this sort of thing.

 

Another thing I think it might be is in big defensive situations they sometimes are on the ice together. Now if they're on different lines 5 on 5, then there's a good chance one of them had one extra or one less shift than the other to that point. Then you put them together (big PK, empty net on the other side, etc) and that can skew the numbers.



#49 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

^To his credit people did question his work ethic. When we're losing we panic and overreact, it's not unrealistic to see some of us do this sort of thing.

 

Another thing I think it might be is in big defensive situations they sometimes are on the ice together. Now if they're on different lines 5 on 5, then there's a good chance one of them had one extra or one less shift than the other to that point. Then you put them together (big PK, empty net on the other side, etc) and that can skew the numbers.

 

I am not doubting people questioned it, I want to know who these people are so I can give them the "what for"


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#50 Johnz96

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

I am not doubting people questioned it, I want to know who these people are so I can give them the "what for"

There's a guy (GoWings) on the Red Wings Central Forum that called him Zoidberg and posted crap about Z questioning his effort all season long.



#51 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

Zetterberg, and Helm arethe two hardest workers on the team IMO, they give it their all every night, they leave their hearts on the ice, for someone to question that is ridiculous


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#52 ogreslayer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

That's 1 min 18s per game. I know it's not a big difference but it is consistent since the lockout. If it was a fluke, Datsyuk would have some years in which he had a little more ice-time. Altogether it's close to 1000 mins difference in games they have both played or the equivalent of almost 50 games. I think Babcock thinks Z is a little better and apparently so does Gretzky. I think Datsyuk is.
And I think this thread is a lot better than some of the doom and gloom ones. There are 30 teams that have the same goal in a league that stresses parity, you have to expect some lean years and we haven't had any in more than 2 decades and I don't think this one will be either.


So let's go back to your original comment where you stated "I guess Babcock must think Zetterberg is better..."

Since the lockout, Hank has averaged all of 0.2375 shifts a game more than Pavs. Not even a quarter of a shift. You could probably flip a coin with Z on one side & Pavs on the other over an entire season & not get that close.

The number of shifts a player gets per game, not TOI, is a much more accurate indicator of the value a coach places on individual players in all-around situations. A coach realistically only has indirect influence on a players TOI through the DIRECT influence of how many shifts he gives a player. A .2375 shift per game variance between the two since the first lockout? Really? To me it feels like you're looking for a conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

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#53 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

There's a guy (GoWings) on the Red Wings Central Forum that called him Zoidberg and posted crap about Z questioning his effort all season long.

I've seen that guy a few times, he's an oaf. Then again a lot of people are over there. I lurked but didn't even waste my time registering nevermind replying. If you're new or don't go along with the opinion of the 5 or 6 dumbasses who stick together and have been there forever, you're shunned. It's kinda sad but they have no one to mod their board so it's turned into to garbage.



#54 Johnz96

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

Zetterberg, and Helm arethe two hardest workers on the team IMO, they give it their all every night, they leave their hearts on the ice, for someone to question that is ridiculous

I know.

I think you have to include Datsyuk in there as they are the 3 hardest workers on the team



#55 Euro_Twins

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

I know.

I think you have to include Datsyuk in there as they are the 3 hardest workers on the team

 

Datsyuk does, but he doesn't play with the same heart the Z and helm do, that is why he is Captain. Datsyuk in my mind is the better player, but Z gives it everything he has, injury or not, and he is loyal to us, no one even knows if datsyuk wants to resign in the nhl next year or not


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#56 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

JohnZ.....do you realize how much you're splitting hairs here?  It's not as if Dats is getting 14 a night while Z rocks a solid 24+.  You're questioning a matter of seconds here.  The reason the TOI differential seems minuscule is because its irrelevant.  

 

Babs has 100% faith in sticking either of these two guys out there at any time.  He doesn't favor Z, however PK time has proven to be an area he excels at....hence the likely tiny differential.


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#57 Johnz96

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

So let's go back to your original comment where you stated "I guess Babcock must think Zetterberg is better..."

Since the lockout, Hank has averaged all of 0.2375 shifts a game more than Pavs. Not even a quarter of a shift. You could probably flip a coin with Z on one side & Pavs on the other over an entire season & not get that close.

The number of shifts a player gets per game, not TOI, is a much more accurate indicator of the value a coach places on individual players in all-around situations. A coach realistically only has indirect influence on a players TOI through the DIRECT influence of how many shifts he gives a player. A .2375 shift per game variance between the two since the first lockout? Really? To me it feels like you're looking for a conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

I wasn't thinking conspiracy. More like Babcock likes him a little more, but O guess maybe I was reading too much into a miniscule difference but only because it has been so consistent over the yrs



#58 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

I know.

I think you have to include Datsyuk in there as they are the 3 hardest workers on the team

Flip, too. Datsyuk is hard to label. He doesn't visually exert himself too much but that's his style, he doesn't have to. He's more methodical and it works. Datsyuk at full speed is more of a once in awhile when it's truly necessary sort of thing. That said he never gives up on a play, or a game and is always trying in his own way to make something happen. He doesn't take games off though. Neither do Hank or Helm or Flip. They're great examples. I hate that Franzen is so lazy but at least he's not a top 3 player on the team. Some teams have top 3 guys, leaders and even captains who refuse to work hard. That's gotta suck.



#59 GoWings1905

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

I don't have any stats to back this up, but I feel like Z is generally matched up against the other team's top line if possible. If they play more, then he likely will too. Seems like this happens in the playoffs quite a bit.
 
 
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#60 55fan

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:01 PM

Gentlemen, it is true that Hank has a teensyweensey bit of extra time during the regular season and a bit more during the playoffs.

 

Please note, however, that Hank is not now as he always was.  He used to be clean-shaven during the regular season and only grow a beard for the playoffs.  Now he wears a beard year-round.

 

Had he had a beard full-time during the length of his career, his ice time would be higher during the regular season also.  Also, it was during his unbearded days that he had trouble with his wrist and back that kept him from playing.  (He also was single when he had wrist and back troubles, but I'm sure that's a coincidence and it's actually the lack of the beard that had hindered him.)

 

Quite simply, the more facial hair Z sprouts, the greater his ice time. 


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