54 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

Datsyuk and z are as good as their hype, and Lidstrom most certainly was

 

Some players are, no doubt, and some are unrecognized as better than their poor reputation.  But in my experience most players who have any degree of above average success, ride on that success further than they should, and serious deficiencies in their game are explained away or else ignored entirely. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 February 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Euro_Twins]

Some players are, no doubt, and some are unfairly characterized as better than their poor reputation.  But in my experience most players who have any degree of above average success, ride on that success further than they should, and serious deficiencies in their game are explained away or else ignored entirely. 

 

Franzen? lol

[Johnz96]

Minny really scewed themselves. The fans were all for it and so excited to get them but hey are going to complain for years that they are handcuffed by those ridickulous contracts to be able to improve the team or until 1 or both get bought out.
Should be some interesting players available on the cheap in years to come that are going to be bought out

[Euro_Twins]

Minny really scewed themselves. The fans were all for it and so excited to get them but hey are going to complain for years that they are handcuffed by those ridickulous contracts to be able to improve the team or until 1 or both get bought out.
Should be some interesting players available on the cheap in years to come that are going to be bought out

 

in years to come? the buyout is ONLY this summer, Also Parise's contract was a good one, no one will complain about that.

[kipwinger]

Franzen? lol

 

Franzen was never as good as his hype in 2008 or 2009, but is EXACTLY as good as he's characterized now.  The problem that people have with Franzen now is that they are still expecting him to live up to some myth that they built for him back then.  Things like letting Hossa walk, and Franzen's various spurts of superstardom haven't helped anything.  But in reality he's a good complimentary scorer with a big body and soft hands, who can be vary dangerous when exploiting mismatches.  He's still that.  But he'll never be Rick Nash, and after 2008 a lot of people wrongly believed that was his developmental trajectory. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 February 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Euro_Twins]

Franzen was never as good as his hype in 2008 or 2009, but is EXACTLY as good as he's characterized now.  The problem that people have with Franzen now is that they are still expecting him to live up to some myth that they built for him back then.  Things like letting Hossa walk, and Franzen's various spurts of superstardom haven't helped anything.  But in reality he's a good complimentary scorer with a big body and soft hands, who can be vary dangerous when exploiting mismatches.  He's still that.  But he'll never be Rick Nash, and after 2008 a lot of people wrongly believed that was his developmental trajectory. 

 

I think he has played quite well so far this year, My only issue I've ever had with him is his lack of motivation. He gets lazy and streaky

[Johnz96]

Franzen was never as good as his hype in 2008 or 2009, but is EXACTLY as good as he's characterized now.  The problem that people have with Franzen now is that they are still expecting him to live up to some myth that they built for him back then.  Things like letting Hossa walk, and Franzen's various spurts of superstardom haven't helped anything.  But in reality he's a good complimentary scorer with a big body and soft hands, who can be vary dangerous when exploiting mismatches.  He's still that.  But he'll never be Rick Nash, and after 2008 a lot of people wrongly believed that was his developmental trajectory. 

Franzen was coming off of a better playoff performance than Hossa and in order to sign Hossa we would have to had dump salary, I think if you asked the Franzen haters back in 09 if we should sign Hossa or Franzen, they would have called it a no-brainer to sign Franzen

in years to come? the buyout is ONLY this summer, Also Parise's contract was a good one, no one will complain about that.

I didn't realize it was 1 time thing.

Should be some interesting players available on the cheap next year. If Nashvile was wise they would dump Weber's ridickulous contract

[kipwinger]

Yeah, I don't disagree.  However, I also don't want to get this thread derailed with Franzen talk because it tends to devolve pretty quickly.  I honestly think there should be a "Franzen" thread pinned to the top of the forum in perpetuity so that it would stay out of all the other threads. 

 

So back to the topic at hand, Suter's letdown isn't a surprise given that he was never as good as he was made out to be.  And Weber's letdown isn't as surprise given that he now has to shoulder more of the defensive burden as Nashville failed to replace an overhyped Suter with anyone even as good as he was. 

[martinezsvsu]

the preds as a team are struggling not just weber

[chrisdetroit]

Datsyuk and z are as good as their hype, and Lidstrom most certainly was

Yes they are, but they didn't get that much hype.  Especially not Z.  Not like that guy in Pittsburgh...

Yeah, I don't disagree.  However, I also don't want to get this thread derailed with Franzen talk because it tends to devolve pretty quickly.  I honestly think there should be a "Franzen" thread pinned to the top of the forum in perpetuity so that it would stay out of all the other threads. 

 

So back to the topic at hand, Suter's letdown isn't a surprise given that he was never as good as he was made out to be.  And Weber's letdown isn't as surprise given that he now has to shoulder more of the defensive burden as Nashville failed to replace an overhyped Suter with anyone even as good as he was. 

There should be a "Whipping Boy" thread pinned and we can just change the name on it every so often.

[GMRwings1983]

What are Quincey's stats compared to other guys who've been traded for a first round pick in recent memory?  

[StormJH1]

Suter is by far the best defenseman on the Wild, without looking it up I'd have a hardtime naming any other defenseman on that team but I do know, that they have a very promising young rookie named Brodhin. People also have to keep in mind that Suter has never been that sexy, flashy offensive defenseman he is an elite stay at home defender.

 

Up to this season Weber always had thte assurance of Suter staying back, so he could play a more offensive type of game but now he is paired with a guy, who is playing his second NHL season, so Weber has to be more defensive responsible I think that's the reason, why his point totals are down.

 

These two just completemented each other perfectly so I am not surprised they aren't that dominate, but keep in mind stats aren't always telling the whole story. Suter also has to adopt to a new coach,. system including all the pressure of being the #1 defenseman on the team.

 

I live in Minnesota.  Suter has been awful and the Wild fans know it, but I think they're trying to be patient with it based on his track record.  It's not like Suter was total garbage on the U.S. Olympic team, I thought he was quite good.

 

The Wild have a rookie, Jonas Brodin, who looks like a stud.  He's decent-sized, skilled with the puck, and already playing 21 minutes a night, almost by default.

Tom Gilbert was acquired in a trade for fan favorite Nick Schultz last year that stunned everyone, and Gilbert has been a better fit with this year's more skilled set of forwards.

 

Zach Parise has actually been as good or better than advertised.  As long as he stays healthy, his leadership and work rate are going to keep up his effectiveness, even if the scoring dries up now and then.  Plus, he's the local guy who came home, so the Minnesotans love him for that anyway.

 

But the shocking reality for the Wild is that they're more than a decade in and they've arguably never had a shutdown "Top 2" defenseman in franchise history.  They had Brent Burns, but he was more interesting for his offensive rushes and willingness to ignore Lemaire's trap system.  Other guys, like Cam Barker, were supposed to anchor the D unit, and completely flamed out.  So there has to be some concern that Suter isn't the guy they thought he was, but I'm sure he'll turn it around over time.  

[Euro_Twins]

Yes they are, but they didn't get that much hype.  Especially not Z.  Not like that guy in Pittsburgh...

There should be a "Whipping Boy" thread pinned and we can just change the name on it every so often.

 

Maybe not Zetterberg, but aside from he who shall not be named, Datsyuk does get a lot of praise from just about everyone, and lives up to it game in and game out, even when he doesn'tget onthe scoresheet. Lidstrom always received high praise from everyone (you don't get 7 norris trophies without being considered the best in the league)

[shoobiedoobin]

He's better defensively than Weber?  Maybe.  Or maybe he played back because he just wasn't as good offensively as Weber.  I don't really know, and I don't really think comparing the two yields any meaningful results.  Obviously, Weber will look worse with Suter out, anytime you go from playing with a pretty good defender to a worse one, your play will look worse.  That makes sense, but that doesn't make Suter elite.  He isn't.  I hear what you're saying, and I'm not trying to sit here and put Weber on a pedestal because I honestly don't think most hockey players are as good as their hype.  All I'm trying to do is knock Suter off the pedestal that a weak UFA class put him on. 

 

.

 

It wasn't just a weak UFA class, it was the fact that this league is going to go through a defenseman drought if it isn't already. What's left? Suter, Weber, Chara? Doughty and Keith got overhyped too quick. Karlsson doesn't actually play defense. There's not much out there, not like a few years ago. If you can be one of the few teams to land a guy like that, you do it.

[kipwinger]

It wasn't just a weak UFA class, it was the fact that this league is going to go through a defenseman drought if it isn't already. What's left? Suter, Weber, Chara? Doughty and Keith got overhyped too quick. Karlsson doesn't actually play defense. There's not much out there, not like a few years ago. If you can be one of the few teams to land a guy like that, you do it.

 

I wouldn't do it if the guy is Suter and the asking price is 10 million a year or whatever.  Suter isn't as good as anyone you just mentioned, not even close really.  In his prime Lidstrom was worth that because he played two way defense and was exceptional in both regards.  Suter is pretty good defensively and alright offensively, he's not elite in either aspect.  He's getting overpaid.  6 to 6.5 per year for Suter is about right.  But in a weak class, with a lack of quality d-men around the league (as you pointed out) he got paid like the second coming of Ray Bourque.  I don't understand these GMs and their mentality that because a guy is the best available FA at his position in a given year, that it automatically means he should get paid like the best player at his position league wide.  Lots of teams will win the Stanley Cup without the highest payroll.  And lots of teams will win the Stanley Cup without Ryan Suter, no matter what his asking price. 

[shoobiedoobin]

I wouldn't do it if the guy is Suter and the asking price is 10 million a year or whatever.  Suter isn't as good as anyone you just mentioned, not even close really.

You also said no one regarded him as top 20 before he was a UFA, which is just wrong. He was considered very good and a lot of Preds fans even thought higher of him than Weber. You also say it's reasonable for Weber to look worse with Suter out, but you say Suter isn't elite when he's not next to Weber. So Weber looks worse when he isn't playing next to his not-elite overrated defensive partner? Which is it? Because that makes no sense. Suter is a damn good defenseman. He's also playing on a new team, 8 games into a new season after a long break, with AHL level defensive partners.

Edited by shoobiedoobin, 05 February 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[mjtm77]

you guys are all talking like your hockey experts. It is pretty funny to read these posts. First it was.......

 

"wtf why didnt we get suter" 

 

"Sutter is better then Weber, Sutter made Weber look good"

                                               to

" Sutter sucks and is not even close to worth his contact"  

 

"thank god we did not go out and sign ryan Sutter"

 

You guys are the most hypocritical people ever and it is realy funny to read this kind of stuff. I mean it has been 8 freaking games lol

[puckbags]

you guys are all talking like your hockey experts. It is pretty funny to read these posts. First it was.......

 

"wtf why didnt we get suter" 

 

"Sutter is better then Weber, Sutter made Weber look good"

                                               to

" Sutter sucks and is not even close to worth his contact"  

 

"thank god we did not go out and sign ryan Sutter"

 

You guys are the most hypocritical people ever and it is realy funny to read this kind of stuff. I mean it has been 8 freaking games lol

 

So you're the hockey expert? I'm confused..

[Barrie]

Suter is better than what he looks, but he cannot carry a team of minor league defensemen... With all our injuries he may have been struggling here as well, but I still wish he was in Red and White instead of Green and Ivory.

 

For that price he better carry a team of minor league defensemen!

 

Edit: Just shows us how over priced the Free Agent market is, especially for defensemen (see Ericsson's contract), and bulding through the draft is the way to go.

you guys are all talking like your hockey experts. It is pretty funny to read these posts. First it was.......

 

"wtf why didnt we get suter" 

 

"Sutter is better then Weber, Sutter made Weber look good"

                                               to

" Sutter sucks and is not even close to worth his contact"  

 

"thank god we did not go out and sign ryan Sutter"

 

You guys are the most hypocritical people ever and it is realy funny to read this kind of stuff. I mean it has been 8 freaking games lol

 

For the record, I was against signing Suter from the beginning

Edited by Barrie, 05 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[kipwinger]

You also said no one regarded him as top 20 before he was a UFA, which is just wrong. He was considered very good and a lot of Preds fans even thought higher of him than Weber. You also say it's reasonable for Weber to look worse with Suter out, but you say Suter isn't elite when he's not next to Weber. So Weber looks worse when he isn't playing next to his not-elite overrated defensive partner? Which is it? Because that makes no sense. Suter is a damn good defenseman. He's also playing on a new team, 8 games into a new season after a long break, with AHL level defensive partners.

 

No, I said the following: Suter is pretty good, just not as good as his hype.  Josi (Suter's replacement) is worse than Suter was, so Weber has to do more on his own and therefore looks worse.  You don't have to agree, but that should clarify my logic. 

Edited by kipwinger, 05 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.