GDT 2/5 GDT : Flames 4 at Red Wings 1

[frankgrimes 1,836]

We also need secondary scoring. BIG TIME.

My bad forgot it completely, but yeah there is obviously more than one hole to fix so Holland has his workload set for this season I guess.

[Guest ToMaToToWnWinGsFaN_24]

well that was an embarrasment..

to lose to the 2nd worst team in the NHL...at home. (caps are now the worst)

hoping tomorrow has a better outcome.

speaking of tomorrow...

[Nightfall 871]

After watching this game last night until Calgary scored to make it 4-1, the only thing I can say is ugly. Here are the problems.

Top 2 lines are good. Bottom 2 lines are not scoring. We need our bottom 2 lines to chip in some points.

The injuries are killing us.

Howard has played great this season. The goals scored against him he has had zero chance on tonight. The screened shot to make it 3-1 was just what Mickey said it was, "A puck that had eyes." He isn't allowing softies, but he also isn't getting goal support either. We weren't winning this game even if he robbed Calgary on 2 of the 4 goals they scored.

I really don't understand why people here think Dekeyser is going to be some stud when he gets out of school. So far, he is just a prospect, and I am not convinced this guy is NHL material yet.

Cleary sucks so bad. He really needs to be benched or put on waivers.

[wingfan1991 221]

just a brutal loss again. CBJ and Flames, whats next, losing to Phx? geeeeeeeeeeez get rid of half the team, cant stand the 3/4th lines. Helm is so missed its unbelievable what he brings to this team.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

This is a thread for discussing the game. Like it or not, complaining about players is on topic and relevant to the discussion.

Lecturing other members about their level of fandom and name calling, even when it's not directed at anyone specific, is still off topic and against forum rules. People continuing to make those kinds of posts will have their entire post deleted and will be receiving suspensions.

EDIT: TO CLARIFY, complaining about players is not inherently on-topic. My point was that if it is on topic, it is not against forum rules to criticize players even though it may be an unpopular opinion. However, incessant complaining about a player not relevant to what is happening in the game may still be considered spamming, derailing the thread, and or/trolling.

Basically use common sense. If you're not sure a post meets forum guidelines, consider whether or not it contributes anything to the discussion at hand. And though it may seem surprising, the evil mods here will usually give you clear warnings before they bring down the hammer.

Thank you, carry on.

Edited February 6, 2013 by haroldsnepsts

[Guest Johnz96]

After watching this game last night until Calgary scored to make it 4-1, the only thing I can say is ugly. Here are the problems.

Top 2 lines are good. Bottom 2 lines are not scoring. We need our bottom 2 lines to chip in some points.

The injuries are killing us.

Howard has played great this season. The goals scored against him he has had zero chance on tonight. The screened shot to make it 3-1 was just what Mickey said it was, "A puck that had eyes." He isn't allowing softies, but he also isn't getting goal support either. We weren't winning this game even if he robbed Calgary on 2 of the 4 goals they scored.

I really don't understand why people here think Dekeyser is going to be some stud when he gets out of school. So far, he is just a prospect, and I am not convinced this guy is NHL material yet.

Cleary sucks so bad. He really needs to be benched or put on waivers.

Cleary played his best game so far this year last night. He caused a Flames penalty battling hard in the corners, he almost scored going hard to the net and worked hard along the boards and in front of their net all night long. He was one of the better Wings last night.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Tatar had a really good game. Shame he was 'rewarded' with being demoted to the 3rd line. Guessing he'll be sent down while Cleary is put in the top 6? Lol.

Zetterberg's back must be hurting from carrying around the team night after night. A Zetterberg shift is usually a good shift for us. Problem is the other 3 shifts suck, with the occasional good Datsyuk shift. In all honesty Dats should have had a goal or two on those 2 big chances he had, if either had gone in it could have been a different game.

Getting tired of special teams dragging us down. Can't keep letting in 2-3 PK goals per game. Can't keep taking stupid penalties. Cleary, Quincey, Kronwall, I'm looking at you guys.

PP is still an embarressment. Fluke goal tonight off a broken play, but otherwise it's not even giving us momentum.

Why didn't Babs play Mrazek tonight? I'm not blaming this one Howard, but the guy needs a rest already. Is there another goalie in the league that has played every game so far? It would be okay to play him every game if it was giving results, but right now there's no point riding Howie 'til he breaks down.

Hoping for a better effort next time.

kipprusoft did, he got injured after the second and irving saw his first play time this season.

Dubnyk has started every game

Johnny Quick has as well

None are doing extraordinarily well, so it's safe to say these goalies need some rest in this short season!

[b.shanafan14 733]

After watching this game last night until Calgary scored to make it 4-1, the only thing I can say is ugly. Here are the problems.

Top 2 lines are good. Bottom 2 lines are not scoring. We need our bottom 2 lines to chip in some points.

The injuries are killing us. (1)

Howard has played great this season. The goals scored against him he has had zero chance on tonight. The screened shot to make it 3-1 was just what Mickey said it was, "A puck that had eyes." He isn't allowing softies, but he also isn't getting goal support either. We weren't winning this game even if he robbed Calgary on 2 of the 4 goals they scored. (2)

I really don't understand why people here think Dekeyser is going to be some stud when he gets out of school. So far, he is just a prospect, and I am not convinced this guy is NHL material yet.

Cleary sucks so bad. He really needs to be benched or put on waivers. (3)

1) Yes, and no. Having Smith and Helm out for a prolonged period of time is hurting the Wings. Other than that, I'm not sure we've "missed" White during his time out or Sammy. Yes it sucks to have patchwork defense, and yes Helm drives the bottom six, but other than that, its the players who are on the ice that are the problem. Quincey is dreadful, and both Ericsson and White (albeit not nearly as bad) have both been burned for several breakaways/dumb penalties this season. The rest of the bottom 6 without Helm should at least be capable of physicality and energy. Besides a Tootoo fight every night (all staged), no one is doing anything.

2) In my opinion, Howard has not been great this season. He has had a few stretches of being good, but his job is keeping pucks out of the net, and in the cold light of day, he hasn't done that. Howard sits at 30th in GAA and Save% among the 40 goaltenders who have played 3 games or more. That's right, Howard is near the bottom in both of the major goaltending categories, so how has he played great? Goaltending comes down to providing confidence as backstop and making up for the team's mistakes until they can right the ship. Yes, he has faced some tough shots, through bodies or on breakaways, but his job is to stop the difficult shots, too. His rebound control has always been an issue, but its much more glaring without Lidstrom, Stuart, and Rafalski clearing juicy pucks from the crease. Rarely do we see him stopping quality scoring chances, and he has a habit of allowing goals in the first and last minute of periods, which are deflating to a team that's already being frustrated on the other end. Yes, he needs goal support on the other side of the ice, and in most of the games he hasn't been the glaring reason why they have lost (as you said about last night, whether they score 4 or 2 goals doesn't matter when you can only muster 1), but to say he has been great, or even very good is a stretch.

3) Cleary in his present state is nothing like he was early in his time with the Wings, and is starting to show why he was here on try-out coming out of the lockout. He has always had potential, but lacked the motivation and focus until he was about ready to be drummed out of the league. I'm starting to feel like years with the Wings have made him overly comfortable, less and less effective, and more and more vocal (to his detriment). Cleary talked a lot during the lockout and got himself and the Wings organization unnecessary attention. Also, whether he is still seen as a leader in the dressing room or not, there is nothing more annoying than what Cleary has been this season, essentially the opposite of a leader by example. He has become the guy that isn't physical, isn't going to the hard areas, isn't making smarter passes, isn't shooting more, so when they ask him in interviews between periods or after games what is going wrong and he sites those things as areas the team needs to improve in, I don't think "he's going to go show them how its done", I think "and you're the worst offender! You apparently know whats wrong, so why aren't you fixing it?". Now when I see him on the ice, his shots are lazy, his passes are complacent and the penalties... oh the penalties. Cleary needs to move on, or at the very least, start seeing his ice time diminished until he snaps out of it. Another relic we keep because of "familiarity" and describe the way he WAS not the way he IS ("versatile", "physical", etc). Also, without Cleary how can we justify bringing players past their prime or on an obvious downswing into the fold while believing the Wings can just turn them 180

Edited February 6, 2013 by b.shanafan14

[Guest Johnz96]

1) Yes, and no. Having Smith and Helm out for a prolonged period of time is hurting the Wings. Other than that, I'm not sure we've "missed" White during his time out or Sammy. Yes it sucks to have patchwork defense, and yes Helm drives the bottom six, but other than that, its the players who are on the ice that are the problem. Quincey is dreadful, and both Ericsson and White (albeit not nearly as bad) have both been burned for several breakaways/dumb penalties this season. The rest of the bottom 6 without Helm should at least be capable of physicality and energy. Besides a Tootoo fight every night (all staged), no one is doing anything.

2) In my opinion, Howard has not been great this season. He has had a few stretches of being good, but his job is keeping pucks out of the net, and in the cold light of day, he hasn't done that. Howard sits at 30th in GAA and Save% among the 40 goaltenders who have played 3 games or more. That's right, Howard is near the bottom in both of the major goaltending categories, so how has he played great? Goaltending comes down to providing confidence as backstop and making up for the team's mistakes until they can right the ship. Yes, he has faced some tough shots, through bodies or on breakaways, but his job is to stop the difficult shots, too. His rebound control has always been an issue, but its much more glaring with Lidstrom, Stuart, and Rafalski clearing juicy pucks from the crease. Rarely do we see him stopping quality scoring chances, and he has a habit of allowing goals in the first and last minute of periods, which are deflating to a team that's already being frustrated on the other end. Yes, he needs goal support on the other side of the ice, and in most of the games he hasn't been the glaring reason why they have lost (as you said about last night, whether they score 4 or 2 goals doesn't matter when you can only muster 1), but to say he has been great, or even very good is a stretch.

3) Cleary in his present state is nothing like he was early in his time with the Wings, and is starting to show why he was here on try-out coming out of the lockout. He has always had potential, but lacked the motivation and focus until he was about ready to be drummed out of the league. I'm starting to feel like years with the Wings have made him overly comfortable, less and less effective, and more and more vocal (to his detriment). Cleary talked a lot during the lockout and got himself and the Wings organization unnecessary attention. Also, whether he is still seen as a leader in the dressing room or not, there is nothing more annoying than what Cleary has been this season, essentially the opposite of a leader by example. He has become the guy that isn't physical, isn't going to the hard areas, isn't making smarter passes, isn't shooting more, so when they ask him in interviews between periods or after games what is going wrong and he sites those things as areas the team needs to improve in, I don't think "he's going to go show them how its done", I think "and you're the worst offender! You apparently know whats wrong, so why aren't you fixing it?". Now when I see him on the ice, his shots are lazy, his passes are complacent and the penalties... oh the penalties. Cleary needs to move on, or at the very least, start seeing his ice time diminished until he snaps out of it. Another relic we keep because of "familiarity" and describe the way he WAS not the way he IS ("versatile", "physical", etc). Also, without Cleary how can we justify bringing players past their prime or on an obvious downswing into the fold while believing the Wings can just turn them 180

He actually did all that last night, I agree he hasn't until last night but last night he actually did, he was one of the better Wings last night

[Guest Johnz96]

just a brutal loss again. CBJ and Flames, whats next, losing to Phx? geeeeeeeeeeez get rid of half the team, cant stand the 3/4th lines. Helm is so missed its unbelievable what he brings to this team.

The Flames totally dominated the Hawks in their previous game but didn't even get the win because of an incredible performance from Razor.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Johnz96

[chrisdetroit 189]

Tatar had a really good game. Shame he was 'rewarded' with being demoted to the 3rd line. Guessing he'll be sent down while Cleary is put in the top 6? Lol.

Zetterberg's back must be hurting from carrying around the team night after night. A Zetterberg shift is usually a good shift for us. Problem is the other 3 shifts suck, with the occasional good Datsyuk shift. In all honesty Dats should have had a goal or two on those 2 big chances he had, if either had gone in it could have been a different game.

Getting tired of special teams dragging us down. Can't keep letting in 2-3 PK goals per game. Can't keep taking stupid penalties. Cleary, Quincey, Kronwall, I'm looking at you guys.

PP is still an embarressment. Fluke goal tonight off a broken play, but otherwise it's not even giving us momentum.

Why didn't Babs play Mrazek tonight? I'm not blaming this one Howard, but the guy needs a rest already. Is there another goalie in the league that has played every game so far? It would be okay to play him every game if it was giving results, but right now there's no point riding Howie 'til he breaks down.

Hoping for a better effort next time.

Why is it a "fluke" goal when we score but not when the other team scores. You need to be objective instead of just bashing the Wings.

Holland was quoted saying he'd give himself 20 games into the season before evaluating his team. So we are almost half point their and yet some things are obvious:

1. Wings need a bonafide top pairing defenseman

2. I want to see Datsyuk getting another cup before heading back to Russia

3. Should this team not be a playoff team by at the end of February time to bring in the youth and hope for a great pick to start off the rebuild.

Get well soon Helm, this team is needing you more than ever

1. They have a couple of injuries on defense - Ericsson, White, Colo, Smith all missed multiple games. So it would be irrational to make any conclusions about the D-men that we do have.

2. agreed

3. The Wings will make the playoffs because they are still better than at least 8 other teams in the west.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Why is it a "fluke" goal when we score but not when the other team scores. You need to be objective instead of just bashing the Wings.

Fluke goal or not, we need to get goals, I would be happier with 3-4 really ugly goals a game for us to win, instead of 1 highlight reel goal a game and losing... Too much cuteness out there, franzen should keep on crashing the net and everyone else just throw the puck at the net, too much passing creates turnovers, odd man rushes and breakaways as we have seen. We got 35 shots a game last year, and we won a lot of games cause we were shooting!

[evilzyme 769]

Passing is a big problem with this team right now, but you need to use it when you don't have the speed to break through the neutral zone. They were just getting caught moving it TOO much before breaking into the offensive zone. Numerous times you would count off 5 passes before they even entered the zone. It shouldn't come down to that. We don't have the speed to outlet pass straight into the zone, so we need to run criss-crosses through the neutral zone. Unfortunately, when you have a big team that can close passing lanes like no other, you find yourself in some big trouble. Calgary did an outstanding job at boxing out the wings and keeping them on the outside, i mean... frickin the outside. we couldn't break inside and get their defense moving. they simply stayed in the hip pocket and stayed with everyone and gave them no space. we needed to spread the ice.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Passing is a big problem with this team right now, but you need to use it when you don't have the speed to break through the neutral zone. They were just getting caught moving it TOO much before breaking into the offensive zone. Numerous times you would count off 5 passes before they even entered the zone. It shouldn't come down to that. We don't have the speed to outlet pass straight into the zone, so we need to run criss-crosses through the neutral zone. Unfortunately, when you have a big team that can close passing lanes like no other, you find yourself in some big trouble. Calgary did an outstanding job at boxing out the wings and keeping them on the outside, i mean... frickin the outside. we couldn't break inside and get their defense moving. they simply stayed in the hip pocket and stayed with everyone and gave them no space. we needed to spread the ice.

There is a simple solution the wings REFUSE to adopt in these situations, dump and chase. I know we aren't fast but if we dump it and hit the boards right away we can snag the puck back when they try to clear it.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Babcock needs to see if they can't break into the zone and not lose the puck 2 seconds later, dump it in, change things up. Teams know how we operate, they study the videos, so if we do the same plays over and over, they are expecting it and are ready. We need to keep them on their toes, they shouldn't know what were doing before we do it, we need to keep them guessing, which is how you create space, open up lanes, by getting the dmen to second guess themselves and go the wrong way. Just my take on it though.

[evilzyme 769]

There is a simple solution the wings REFUSE to adopt in these situations, dump and chase. I know we aren't fast but if we dump it and hit the boards right away we can snag the puck back when they try to clear it.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Babcock needs to see if they can't break into the zone and not lose the puck 2 seconds later, dump it in, change things up. Teams know how we operate, they study the videos, so if we do the same plays over and over, they are expecting it and are ready. We need to keep them on their toes, they shouldn't know what were doing before we do it, we need to keep them guessing, which is how you create space, open up lanes, by getting the dmen to second guess themselves and go the wrong way. Just my take on it though.

Absolutely they need to change it up within the game, and adopt to how the team is countering their attack. Hockey should never be a static strategy, never. You should always aim to adjust to how that team is playing, and exploit them where you find holes. Sadly though, this team isn't aimed towards a dump and chase either though. In order to dump and chase, you need speed and you need physicality. If you can't win the race to the puck, you better damn well have the body to come out on top when you get there. There needs to be more shooting, plain and simple. I don't care if it's from the perimeter or not, throw it on and crash it. Good things come out of broken, scrambled plays. When the defense is scrambled, and you're only going to scramble them if you get pucks loose and cause havok within the zone, you will reep the rewards. We need to throw them down low, get it in the shooting lanes, make the defense start moving, recover the pucks and reset. If you keep throwing the puck down, recovering and throwing it laterally you'll find numerous amounts of success. We're simply just getting beat to the puck, every, single, time. If you don't feel confident in getting to the puck first, staple gun that man to the glass and wait for your secondary to come help recover it for you, but don't allow them to flush the puck out of the zone.

[Wing-in-avs-town 123]

3. The Wings will make the playoffs because they are still better than at least 8 other teams in the west.

I used to think so too, but after the last 2 games, I'm not so sure

[Guest RedWingsDad]

They looked pretty bad out there... dis-jointed would be the best way to describe it. It just looks like a team that is not gelling together at all, excluding Z and Attila the Brun. Hardly any of our passes are fluent, typically requiring the passee to slow down to get the puck, or struggle to get control of it, both of which disrupts the entire play and allows their D to gain position.

Even Datsyuk has looked really bad at puck handling, he just keeps giving it away over and over again while trying to make a move...

In the end, I think the biggest issue is that this team lost a lot of confidence for various reasons and has to find some way to get it back.

Edited February 6, 2013 by RedWingsDad

[kipwinger 8,524]

They looked pretty bad out there... dis-jointed would be the best way to describe it. It just looks like a team that is not gelling together at all, excluding Z and Attila the Brun. Hardly any of our passes are fluent, typically requiring the passee to slow down to get the puck, or struggle to get control of it, both of which disrupts the entire play and allows their D to gain position.

Even Datsyuk has looked really bad at puck handling, he just keeps giving it away over and over again while trying to make a move...

In the end, I think the biggest issue is that this team lost a lot of confidence for various reasons and has to find some way to get it back.

I noticed both of these things too. Passing was horrid last night, just absolutely half assed. Which is exactly the same set of adverbs I would use to describe Pavel's play for at least the last two games. The one guy on the team capable of taking over a game all by himself is notoriously absent right now.

[evilzyme 769]

I noticed both of these things too. Passing was horrid last night, just absolutely half assed. Which is exactly the same set of adverbs I would use to describe Pavel's play for at least the last two games. The one guy on the team capable of taking over a game all by himself is notoriously absent right now.

I wouldn't say absent, because you can tell he's getting frustrated. Easily within the first and 2nd periods, especially when Babcock was double shifting him with TooToo in the box for 5 minutes. The problem is, they think they can bait the defense to the outside and then cut within the middle on them and you can't always do that, especially when people tend to expect that out of you. Numerous times the past two games, they would simply pass downlow, throw it back to the point try to squeeze the defense out to expand their box but then throw it directly down the boards again. When you start pulling the defense to the outside and expanding them, you NEED to feed someone within the middle. We just didn't have ANYONE get inside their defense to feed to, we were OKAY with staying on the boards. We're getting too pressured, and we can't just expect to out-puck handle it. Last night I saw a lot of heart from Zetterberg (i've been seeing it all games) which is expected due to him being the captain, he's been playing lights out having his team emulate his heart. Pavel was trying hard, but he just couldn't get anything going. It's not everyday you see Pasha mishandle the puck, not beable to grab passes, etc, but my god the puck was bouncing all over and he just couldn't get into his flow. Brunner surprisingly has been getting better and better each game, you can tell he's getting more comfortable. Bert was playing hard, and Clears had his best game this season. Lashoff sadly looked like our best defensemen.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

I wouldn't say absent, because you can tell he's getting frustrated. Easily within the first and 2nd periods, especially when Babcock was double shifting him with TooToo in the box for 5 minutes. The problem is, they think they can bait the defense to the outside and then cut within the middle on them and you can't always do that, especially when people tend to expect that out of you. Numerous times the past two games, they would simply pass downlow, throw it back to the point try to squeeze the defense out to expand their box but then throw it directly down the boards again. When you start pulling the defense to the outside and expanding them, you NEED to feed someone within the middle. We just didn't have ANYONE get inside their defense to feed to, we were OKAY with staying on the boards. We're getting too pressured, and we can't just expect to out-puck handle it. Last night I saw a lot of heart from Zetterberg (i've been seeing it all games) which is expected due to him being the captain, he's been playing lights out having his team emulate his heart. Pavel was trying hard, but he just couldn't get anything going. It's not everyday you see Pasha mishandle the puck, not beable to grab passes, etc, but my god the puck was bouncing all over and he just couldn't get into his flow. Brunner surprisingly has been getting better and better each game, you can tell he's getting more comfortable. Bert was playing hard, and Clears had his best game this season. Lashoff sadly looked like our best defensemen.

sadly? He was our best defenseman from the moment he got called up. I wouldn't mind seeing another one of our ahl dmen out there (don't say they aren't "nhl ready" yet, because Lashoff wasn't "nhl ready" and look how great he turned out, and he wasn't even our 3rd best prospect on d

[evilzyme 769]

sadly? He was our best defenseman from the moment he got called up. I wouldn't mind seeing another one of our ahl dmen out there (don't say they aren't "nhl ready" yet, because Lashoff wasn't "nhl ready" and look how great he turned out, and he wasn't even our 3rd best prospect on d

I say sadly because he certainly should NOT be our best defensemen. Plain and simple. If Lashoff is our best defensemen, that's just sad. I love the guy, and I think his play has been outstanding. That's exactly why I brought him up, but it is a sad fact when he's our #1D right now. Kronner has looked absolutely AWFUL this season. You can see that he's scared to even attempt to hit due to everything being called, and he looks like a lost duck out there. Right now, he can't be our #1D. He simply isn't shutting down any top lines right now. Ericsson is clearing the crease more than damn Kronner (which i'm loving seeing Ericsson actually moving people). Hell, Quincey has used his body more in the crease than Kronner. There was no excuse to rest your back against Iginla last night. You should NEVER have a forward inbetween you and your tender, you need to be the middle ground. The sad part was, he sat there back against him for a solid 5+ seconds.

[Guest RedWingsDad]

I won't lie, I had fleeting feelings of lamenting Hudler's departure last night... hey! back off... they were just fleeting feelings, OK?

He was really moving the puck well from the corner on their PP... that one PP shift by the Flames that I am thinking of eclipsed any one effort from the Wings I can think of recently, even the ones we scored on. They were making tight passes and getting good opportunities... though part of the reason for that may be because our PK wasn't pressuring anyone, but just maintaining their box in the middle of the zone.

Edited February 6, 2013 by RedWingsDad