Howard = Average

[KrazyGangsta 79]

I will keep pointing this out but the reality is this team will never win a cup with Howard in nets!

[Guest The Axe]

it's true anderson has been having a good season thus far, but to say he is better then howie is a stretch, he has been very inconsistent over his career and has never put up nubers as good as howie in a full season

And now Karlsson is out. Should be interesting to see if that really affects Anderson.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I will keep pointing this out but the reality is this team will never win a cup with Howard in nets!

While I tend to believe Howard is better than average, I do agree with this statement. I hope I am wrong because Howard is here to stay and will probably get a $5M+ contract this summer as Holland loves to overpay for mid-level talent...as shown by some of the contracts he has handed out...when it comes to Elite players, he tends to underpay...although kudos for the pursuit of the Olsen Twins...but I honestly see him giving Jimmy a way overpayment for what he has earned...which is nothing. Hell even Cheveldae won 112 games in his 5 years in Detroit...Legace won 108 in 6 years...Howard is at 115 in 5 years, all with no Cups won (outside of Legace's as a backup.)

Do I think Howard is better than Cheveldae or Legace, yes, but he is not elite...but who is anymore?

[Nightfall 871]

While I tend to believe Howard is better than average, I do agree with this statement. I hope I am wrong because Howard is here to stay and will probably get a $5M+ contract this summer as Holland loves to overpay for mid-level talent...as shown by some of the contracts he has handed out...when it comes to Elite players, he tends to underpay...although kudos for the pursuit of the Olsen Twins...but I honestly see him giving Jimmy a way overpayment for what he has earned...which is nothing. Hell even Cheveldae won 112 games in his 5 years in Detroit...Legace won 108 in 6 years...Howard is at 115 in 5 years, all with no Cups won (outside of Legace's as a backup.)

Do I think Howard is better than Cheveldae or Legace, yes, but he is not elite...but who is anymore?

I think its kinda funny how people for years said that Osgood was average, but he won 3 cups with Detroit and over 400 wins in his career which is #10 all time. Mike Vernon, who many consider to be the holy grail of goaltenders in Detroit because he led them to a cup win in 97 was #12 on the all time wins list. Jimmy is winning half of his games, and if he continues to do so, he will eclipse the 400 win plateau easily.

Right now, we don't know how much Howie is going to resign for. It must be nice to be able to tell the future and pull a number out of your ass, but in the end, that number just comes straight from your ass.

Oh, and a cup win is a cup win. Its not like Legace did nothing that season, so don't cherry pick your stats.

There are going to be detractors and cheerleaders for Howard, thats for sure. Any intelligent hockey fan is going to be able to point out two simple truths.

1. Howard, just like any goalie, is only going to be as good as the team he plays in front of. This is a team game. How many playoff runs did Roberto Luongo lead the Florida Panthers to? Zero. Yet, I believe Luongo is a great goalie. Look at any elite goalie who has won a cup or multiple cups as well. If the team is horrible in front of them, they aren't going to make any headway. A goalie isn't going to win a cup on his own.

2. How well the team is playing is tied to how the goalie does. Right now, the Red Wings are banged up and are in serious trouble. The last thing we should be doing is blaming Howard and calling him out for being average. Is Jonathan Quick average or are the Kings playing horrible hockey in front of him? Hell, this was the same team that won the cup last year. Right now, Chicago and Anaheim are playing great, and their goalies are the beneficiaries of that great play. It wouldn't matter if the Wings had Patrick Roy in his prime playing right now. The Wings would not have won more games this season with Roy in his prime than with Jimmy.

The sooner that people realize that Howard is just a piece of the puzzle, and not the entire puzzle, then we will be much better off.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

This thread is just wrong, plain wrong. Howard, while not being necessarily elite, is a very solid goaltender. I just think the Wings need to find a competent backup to spell him more often and give him rest. I firmly believe the gets worn out playing as much as he does. People seem to forget that he was putting up Vezina type numbers before getting the injury bug last season.

Being a Detroit 'tender is one of the most thankless jobs in all of Detroit sports and it's really obnoxious. It couldn't possibly be the defense a lot of nights.

[rick zombo 3,739]

While I tend to believe Howard is better than average, I do agree with this statement. I hope I am wrong because Howard is here to stay and will probably get a $5M+ contract this summer as Holland loves to overpay for mid-level talent...as shown by some of the contracts he has handed out...when it comes to Elite players, he tends to underpay...although kudos for the pursuit of the Olsen Twins...but I honestly see him giving Jimmy a way overpayment for what he has earned...which is nothing. Hell even Cheveldae won 112 games in his 5 years in Detroit...Legace won 108 in 6 years...Howard is at 115 in 5 years, all with no Cups won (outside of Legace's as a backup.)

Do I think Howard is better than Cheveldae or Legace, yes, but he is not elite...but who is anymore?

Holland will not give Jimmy 5M+.

Howard will get 4M.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I think its kinda funny how people for years said that Osgood was average, but he won 3 cups with Detroit and over 400 wins in his career which is #10 all time. Mike Vernon, who many consider to be the holy grail of goaltenders in Detroit because he led them to a cup win in 97 was #12 on the all time wins list. Jimmy is winning half of his games, and if he continues to do so, he will eclipse the 400 win plateau easily.

Right now, we don't know how much Howie is going to resign for. It must be nice to be able to tell the future and pull a number out of your ass, but in the end, that number just comes straight from your ass.

Oh, and a cup win is a cup win. Its not like Legace did nothing that season, so don't cherry pick your stats.

There are going to be detractors and cheerleaders for Howard, thats for sure. Any intelligent hockey fan is going to be able to point out two simple truths.

1. Howard, just like any goalie, is only going to be as good as the team he plays in front of. This is a team game. How many playoff runs did Roberto Luongo lead the Florida Panthers to? Zero. Yet, I believe Luongo is a great goalie. Look at any elite goalie who has won a cup or multiple cups as well. If the team is horrible in front of them, they aren't going to make any headway. A goalie isn't going to win a cup on his own.

2. How well the team is playing is tied to how the goalie does. Right now, the Red Wings are banged up and are in serious trouble. The last thing we should be doing is blaming Howard and calling him out for being average. Is Jonathan Quick average or are the Kings playing horrible hockey in front of him? Hell, this was the same team that won the cup last year. Right now, Chicago and Anaheim are playing great, and their goalies are the beneficiaries of that great play. It wouldn't matter if the Wings had Patrick Roy in his prime playing right now. The Wings would not have won more games this season with Roy in his prime than with Jimmy.

The sooner that people realize that Howard is just a piece of the puzzle, and not the entire puzzle, then we will be much better off.

First of all, I am a huge Osgood and Legace fan so I am not detracting anything from them. I am just saying Legace has won here just as much as Howard and most folks hated on him for not winning in the playoffs. I am not cherry picking anything. My whole point was about the regular season stats. Also, if you think Howard will get less than $4M then I want what you are drinking and if gets $5M+ I want what Holland is drinking! My comparison's were and are, Howard is above average, but at this moment he is no better than Legace or Cheveldae, so he is not elite, but above average. I agree with your take on the Roy comparison, which is why Jimmy is being exposed a bit for what he is, because of the bad D in front of him...imagine Legace or Cheveldae on this current team...I think they would struggle a bit too...

I like Jimmy, I am not a huge fan of his, but I am fine with him here. But I can see Holland overpaying him and then in three years when M-Raz is outplaying him, Howard will still be playing because of his salary and we may lose M-Raz, who in three years WILL be better than Howard (barring injutries.) Yes that is my opinion of M-Raz, he is better than Howard, but because of Babs and Holland love of Jimmy, M-Raz will probably be gone in three years because he won't want to ride the pine behind an average goalie. I will also be surprised if Howard ges 400 wins, let alone 3 Cups....it just isn't going to happen unless Holland addresses this teams problems, which thankfully, isn't goaltending. But signing players like Bert, Sammy, keeping Cleary on the ice and wasting 1st round picks on trash like Q alon with letting Kindl step on the ice, then no, it just won't happen....and we'll probably lose Dom, Jr.

Edited February 19, 2013 by LeftWinger

[shoobiedoobin 138]

Alright! Now we can discuss. He's got an awesome record so far in his young career. I contend that's a byproduct of Lidstrom and great team defense. And I think I will be proven right when "too early to tell" becomes a full season. We will see.

Byproduct of his defense? But I thought this was about stats?

Or could it be that you were clearly just pushing an agenda and didn't want to hear how stats clearly lie?

Like I said this is now officially a contest. A matter of pride. Axe vs everyone who disagreed.

Edited February 19, 2013 by shoobiedoobin

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I dunno what made me type that! I meant Anderson.

And Fasth?

If you're prepared to call a goalie who has started 8 games in the NHL superior to Howard, I don't think there's any point in discussing the issue.

You're either arguing just to argue or your opinion of Howard doesn't really have much to do with how he plays relative to other goaltenders in the league.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Bottom line and this should end the discussion:

Howard is an above average goalie, but he is being made to look average because of the Defense, not his play. If not for some of the saves he has made this season, the Wings could very well only have 2 wins thus far. If Holland addresses the D needs, then we will see a pre-injury Howard from last season again...it's all on Holland to get this turned around. PS, injuries are not the problem...

[rick zombo 3,739]

First of all, I am a huge Osgood and Legace fan so I am not detracting anything from them. I am just saying Legace has won here just as much as Howard and most folks hated on him for not winning in the playoffs. I am not cherry picking anything. My whole point was about the regular season stats. Also, if you think Howard will get less than $4M then I want what you are drinking and if gets $5M+ I want what Holland is drinking! My comparison's were and are, Howard is above average, but at this moment he is no better than Legace or Cheveldae, so he is not elite, but above average. I agree with your take on the Roy comparison, which is why Jimmy is being exposed a bit for what he is, because of the bad D in front of him...imagine Legace or Cheveldae on this current team...I think they would struggle a bit too...

I like Jimmy, I am not a huge fan of his, but I am fine with him here. But I can see Holland overpaying him and then in three years when M-Raz is outplaying him, Howard will still be playing because of his salary and we may lose M-Raz, who in three years WILL be better than Howard (barring injutries.) Yes that is my opinion of M-Raz, he is better than Howard, but because of Babs and Holland love of Jimmy, M-Raz will probably be gone in three years because he won't want to ride the pine behind an average goalie. I will also be surprised if Howard ges 400 wins, let alone 3 Cups....it just isn't going to happen unless Holland addresses this teams problems, which thankfully, isn't goaltending. But signing players like Bert, Sammy, keeping Cleary on the ice and wasting 1st round picks on trash like Q alon with letting Kindl step on the ice, then no, it just won't happen....and we'll probably lose Dom, Jr.

Axe, buddy, I want what you're drinking.

First off, I remember Cheveldae well. He would get absolutely shellacked on this team. Same as Legace.

Second, just because Holland signed Sammy for depth, and Babs unexplainably plays Cleary too much, doesn't mean Howard will get overpaid and they'll just toss Mrazek away. If any organization knows the value of goaltending, it's Detroit. If, in 3 years, Mrazek's playing "lights out", then he'll be here and he'll play. How in the hell do you know so much about what's going to happen in 3 years anyway?

[Guest The Axe]

I think its kinda funny how people for years said that Osgood was average, but he won 3 cups with Detroit and over 400 wins in his career which is #10 all time. Mike Vernon, who many consider to be the holy grail of goaltenders in Detroit because he led them to a cup win in 97 was #12 on the all time wins list. Jimmy is winning half of his games, and if he continues to do so, he will eclipse the 400 win plateau easily.

Right now, we don't know how much Howie is going to resign for. It must be nice to be able to tell the future and pull a number out of your ass, but in the end, that number just comes straight from your ass.

Oh, and a cup win is a cup win. Its not like Legace did nothing that season, so don't cherry pick your stats.

There are going to be detractors and cheerleaders for Howard, thats for sure. Any intelligent hockey fan is going to be able to point out two simple truths.

1. Howard, just like any goalie, is only going to be as good as the team he plays in front of. This is a team game. How many playoff runs did Roberto Luongo lead the Florida Panthers to? Zero. Yet, I believe Luongo is a great goalie. Look at any elite goalie who has won a cup or multiple cups as well. If the team is horrible in front of them, they aren't going to make any headway. A goalie isn't going to win a cup on his own.

2. How well the team is playing is tied to how the goalie does. Right now, the Red Wings are banged up and are in serious trouble. The last thing we should be doing is blaming Howard and calling him out for being average. Is Jonathan Quick average or are the Kings playing horrible hockey in front of him? Hell, this was the same team that won the cup last year. Right now, Chicago and Anaheim are playing great, and their goalies are the beneficiaries of that great play. It wouldn't matter if the Wings had Patrick Roy in his prime playing right now. The Wings would not have won more games this season with Roy in his prime than with Jimmy.

The sooner that people realize that Howard is just a piece of the puzzle, and not the entire puzzle, then we will be much better off.

I agree with everything you say except the last part. The Wings would have at least 3 more wins this year with an elite keeper. Columbus, St Louis, Minnesota games could have easily been won with a few more clutch saves.

[Nightfall 871]

Bottom line and this should end the discussion:

Howard is an above average goalie, but he is being made to look average because of the Defense, not his play. If not for some of the saves he has made this season, the Wings could very well only have 2 wins thus far. If Holland addresses the D needs, then we will see a pre-injury Howard from last season again...it's all on Holland to get this turned around. PS, injuries are not the problem...

I agree. Lets end it here.

I agree with everything you say except the last part. The Wings would have at least 3 more wins this year with an elite keeper. Columbus, St Louis, Minnesota games could have easily been won with a few more clutch saves.

Just based on your list of elite keepers that you gave earlier, I disagree. None of the goalies you mentioned would have been enough to take more than a game. You have to figure that saves that Jimmy made that one of your elites may not have made. To say "easily three wins" is just a disservice. The Wings are banged up. Even Roy in his prime would not be able to save this team.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Axe, buddy, I want what you're drinking.

First off, I remember Cheveldae well. He would get absolutely shellacked on this team. Same as Legace.

Second, just because Holland signed Sammy for depth, and Babs unexplainably plays Cleary too much, doesn't mean Howard will get overpaid and they'll just toss Mrazek away. If any organization knows the value of goaltending, it's Detroit. If, in 3 years, Mrazek's playing "lights out", then he'll be here and he'll play. How in the hell do you know so much about what's going to happen in 3 years anyway?

First of all, I am not Axe.... Yes, both Chevy and Legace got shellacked, but still put up similar numbers as Howard, yet when it came down to it, neither were considered elite goaltenders, just average or above average, which puts Howard right in line with them, until he seperates himself from them...

I hope you are right about them playing M-Raz in three years if he is outplaying Jimmy, BUT my point is/was, if Howard is making $5M+ at the same time M-Raz is outplaying him, Howard will not sit on the bench making all that money. Same reason the Wings chose Legace over Osgood in '01 when Hasek was traded for. Osgood was making about $3.5M I believe and the reason he was waived is because, right from Holland's mouth, we cannot have a $3.5M goalie sitting on the bench. That is why I am afraid that even though M-Raz will be outplaying Howard (trust me, he will) Howard will still be starting because of his salary and M-Raz will just leave when he can to become a starter somewhere else...and that will be a HUGE mistake to keep Howard over M-Raz...

[Guest The Axe]

First of all, I am not Axe.... Yes, both Chevy and Legace got shellacked, but still put up similar numbers as Howard, yet when it came down to it, neither were considered elite goaltenders, just average or above average, which puts Howard right in line with them, until he seperates himself from them...

I hope you are right about them playing M-Raz in three years if he is outplaying Jimmy, BUT my point is/was, if Howard is making $5M+ at the same time M-Raz is outplaying him, Howard will not sit on the bench making all that money. Same reason the Wings chose Legace over Osgood in '01 when Hasek was traded for. Osgood was making about $3.5M I believe and the reason he was waived is because, right from Holland's mouth, we cannot have a $3.5M goalie sitting on the bench. That is why I am afraid that even though M-Raz will be outplaying Howard (trust me, he will) Howard will still be starting because of his salary and M-Raz will just leave when he can to become a starter somewhere else...and that will be a HUGE mistake to keep Howard over M-Raz...

Holland will keep Howard and overpay him. Thats a certainty.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

While I tend to believe Howard is better than average, I do agree with this statement. I hope I am wrong because Howard is here to stay and will probably get a $5M+ contract this summer as Holland loves to overpay for mid-level talent...as shown by some of the contracts he has handed out...when it comes to Elite players, he tends to underpay...although kudos for the pursuit of the Olsen Twins...but I honestly see him giving Jimmy a way overpayment for what he has earned...which is nothing. Hell even Cheveldae won 112 games in his 5 years in Detroit...Legace won 108 in 6 years...Howard is at 115 in 5 years, all with no Cups won (outside of Legace's as a backup.)

Do I think Howard is better than Cheveldae or Legace, yes, but he is not elite...but who is anymore?

This is wrong, Howard has played 3 seasons in detroit, and he is in his 4th season now. Before he was our starter he played a total of 9 games over 3 seasons with 1 win. So since 2009-2010 Howard has 115 wins 196 games, I don't know where you got your stats, but mine look better then Cheveldae and legacy by a longshot

[Guest The Axe]

This is wrong, Howard has played 3 seasons in detroit, and he is in his 4th season now. Before he was our starter he played a total of 9 games over 3 seasons with 1 win. So since 2009-2010 Howard has 115 wins 196 games, I don't know where you got your stats, but mine look better then Cheveldae and legacy by a longshot

Lets not get delusional. Howard is a far better netminder than Cheveldae and Legacy. Lets get back to comparing him to the elites and discussing why or why not he isnt in that category.

[rick zombo 3,739]

First of all, I am not Axe....

LOL. Sorry man.

[Nev 1,085]

This thread is just wrong, plain wrong. Howard, while not being necessarily elite, is a very solid goaltender. I just think the Wings need to find a competent backup to spell him more often and give him rest. I firmly believe the gets worn out playing as much as he does. People seem to forget that he was putting up Vezina type numbers before getting the injury bug last season.

Being a Detroit 'tender is one of the most thankless jobs in all of Detroit sports and it's really obnoxious. It couldn't possibly be the defense a lot of nights.

Very good point. We were playing great up until the point he and Dats got injured. When they came back, they weren't the same players, and we weren't the same team.

I also remember being 0-3 down to the Sharks in the playoffs, and being lucky to have nil, and Jimmy (and Pav) were the only players showing up.

[puckbags 863]

First of all, I am not Axe.... Yes, both Chevy and Legace got shellacked, but still put up similar numbers as Howard, yet when it came down to it, neither were considered elite goaltenders, just average or above average, which puts Howard right in line with them, until he seperates himself from them...

I hope you are right about them playing M-Raz in three years if he is outplaying Jimmy, BUT my point is/was, if Howard is making $5M+ at the same time M-Raz is outplaying him, Howard will not sit on the bench making all that money. Same reason the Wings chose Legace over Osgood in '01 when Hasek was traded for. Osgood was making about $3.5M I believe and the reason he was waived is because, right from Holland's mouth, we cannot have a $3.5M goalie sitting on the bench. That is why I am afraid that even though M-Raz will be outplaying Howard (trust me, he will) Howard will still be starting because of his salary and M-Raz will just leave when he can to become a starter somewhere else...and that will be a HUGE mistake to keep Howard over M-Raz...

Trust you? Kind of hard to trust a guy who has some blinded man love for a guy with 2 career starts.

Edited February 19, 2013 by puckbags

[puckbags 863]

Very good point. We were playing great up until the point he and Dats got injured. When they came back, they weren't the same players, and we weren't the same team.

I also remember being 0-3 down to the Sharks in the playoffs, and being lucky to have nil, and Jimmy (and Pav) were the only players showing up.

Jimmy has done more than enough in the good times and the bad times for this team for me to 1. Have trust in him as a fan and 2. Believe that he is an upper echelon goalie in this league. He deserves a raise at the end of the year and he will get one. Hopefully it's with us..if not he will be a starting goalie somewhere else.

[Guest The Axe]

Jimmy has done more than enough in the good times and the bad times for this team for me to 1. Have trust in him as a fan and 2. Believe that he is an upper echelon goalie in this league. He deserves a raise at the end of the year and he will get one. Hopefully it's with us..if not he will be a starting goalie somewhere else.

I hope he goes elsewhere if he gets more money. If we are going to pay 5 mil for a goalie, we are not going to be able to afford an upgrade at #1 D and #1 Sniper. We need those desperately.

[IllinoisRedWingsFan 49]

I hope he goes elsewhere if he gets more money. If we are going to pay 5 mil for a goalie, we are not going to be able to afford an upgrade at #1 D and #1 Sniper. We need those desperately.

It depends how much Howard wants. With the way he's been playing as of late I'd let him walk unless he wanted less than $3 million per year.

[Guest The Axe]

It depends how much Howard wants. With the way he's been playing as of late I'd let him walk unless he wanted less than $3 million per year.

That sounds about right.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I don't see Howard taking more than 3.5-4 million on a longer-term contract (4-6 years)