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Howard = Average


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#401 The Axe

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:41 AM

This is a joke. 
 
Jimmy Howard is the reason why we are still "alive" for a playoff berth. How about having a better defensive core instead of a bunch of flops choking up the puck? or maybe someone who can Quarterback a line (like Lidstrom) instead of looking lost on the ice when regrouping the line. I can't believe how insane this town is about goaltending. They can never appreciate a goaltender who faces 35+ shots a game yet we praise Domink Hasek who only faced an average of 19.5 shots per game and allows about 2-3 goals a game. Put Jimmy Howard in net from 96-2003 and get back to me.
 
You want to talk about average goaltender? Chris Osgood was an average goaltender. The only goaltender I know that had many Hot and Cold seasons. Very loose when securing the puck. Yet, the same guy who people talk about saying he should be in the Hall of Fame because of his 3 Stanley Cup rings. Pathetic. 



Osgood has 400 wins too. He will get into the hall of fame whether you like him or not. If Jimmy has a long career, he might as well. Howard is not a bad goalie. He's just not great.

#402 heyfolks

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

This is nowhere near an open debate or discussion of facts.  I presented stats, salaries and asked related questions.  Axe ignores them and simply parrot the same lines over and over again. 

 

Don't feed the hate!

 

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#403 HIFI_canadian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:18 PM

:withstupid:

 

it was a shootout... Datsyuk missed, Brunner had Crawford beat but lost control of the puck, and Z didn't take a very good shot. How could we win if our guys couldn't even score on a shootout?

 

Apparently he thinks Howard should be scoring goals now.


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#404 Crymson

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:55 PM

Apparently he thinks Howard should be scoring goals now.

 

Howard is terrible, dude; the guy is invisible in the offensive zone!



#405 Euro_Twins

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

 
Howard is terrible, dude; the guy is invisible in the offensive zone!


I've been saying this all along, we need a goalie who is a 20+ goal scorer, how many points does Howie have? Maybe 1 assist in 20 games? Awful

#406 The Axe

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:23 PM

This is nowhere near an open debate or discussion of facts.  I presented stats, salaries and asked related questions.  Axe ignores them and simply parrot the same lines over and over again. 
 
Don't feed the hate!
 
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Your stats are meaningless. Lidstrom made all our goaltenders better. And a good defense (new jersey) does the same for other goalies. Osgood still won when he was playing for lesser teams. Howard is under 500 this year and in the bottom half of goalies in all stats playing behind an average team. How does that make him any better than average? No parroting here. I dont drink the koolaid is all. Im the guy who recognized Holmstrom lost his usefulness in 2010 while everyone else still believed he was a legit top 6er. Im the guy who doesnt throw in the towel on 25 year old defensemen that are developing while the rest of you are calling for their heads. And Im the guy who blames management first for signing players who are incapable of filling the roles we need them to fill to be a top 5 team while the rest of the crowd is saying this guy is lazy and he sucks. In short, I like our good, young, developing players until they give me a reason to think otherwise. Howard has given me that reason. He's average. We need puck stopper and guy who steals games consistently. Howard does it rarely despite having a lot of opportunities to do it.

#407 Richdg

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:30 PM

So our 3 best scorers-2 of which are future HOFers can't score a goal in the shootout, and Howard is to blame? Is that correct? In 2 of the last 3 seasons, Howard was top 5 in GAA while playing 60ish games each year. How is that not great? Oh ya, it was all Lidstrom.

 

as of today, Howard is 5th in SA. While having a GAA of 2.83. That is pretty damn good.


Edited by Richdg, 05 March 2013 - 05:34 PM.


#408 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:15 PM

He has a 1.50 GAA in the last four games. 


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#409 The Axe

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

http://www.nhl.com/i...sAgainstAverage

 

 

Every goalie will tell you that they are better when they see a lot of shots, so the Shots Against and Total Number of Saves stats are NOT a good indicator of who's doing well as a goaltender.  Save percentage and Goals Against are better indicators of the goalie's abilities.  I am NOT saying that Howard should have better stats than Crawford or that he's a worse goaltender than Crawford.  Please understand that I do realize that the team in front of the goaltender makes a difference in the goaltender's performance.  I'm only saying that Howard's GAA and Save % are in the middle of the pack for all NHL goalies = AVERAGE.  If you want to defend Howard to your grave, do it.  Just realize that the "Holmstrom Rules!!!" mentality is the same mentality that keeps our good, young players "OVER-RIPENING" in the minors while our old, average has beens get hurt and the team exits the playoffs in the first round.



#410 evilzyme

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

He has a 1.50 GAA in the last four games. 

 

I believe it was 1.48 and .943 save percentage. Defense picks it up, and goalie picks it up. 


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#411 Carman

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

All about sample size. Howard's sample size of the past few seasons say that he is above average. If his stats stay down for the rest of this year, and some of next then you can start making conclusions.

 

You don't judge a goalie on 19 games, if you did then I can come up with 19 game segments of hall of fame goaltenders that would prove they are "average".

Fact is goalies rely on players in front of them to limit the other team's high percentage chances, something the Wings were considerably bad at during the beginning of the season. And believe it or not, all goalies tend to struggle when the team in front of them turns the puck over and can't score more than a goal a game.



#412 Richdg

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

In 11/12 Howard was 6th in GAA at 21.3, for G's that played over 30 games. in 10/11 he was 31st with a GAA of 2.79. In 09/10 he was 5th with a GAA of 2.26. The number of G's that were better than Howard in all 3 years for GAA? 0 none nada. not one G in the NHL, that has played at least 30 games in each of the past 3 years has been better than Jimmy for all 3 years. Yes some guys have had a better year, and maybe even in 2 years. But no one has been better than Jimmy in all 3 years.



#413 The Axe

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:54 PM

All about sample size. Howard's sample size of the past few seasons say that he is above average. If his stats stay down for the rest of this year, and some of next then you can start making conclusions.
 
You don't judge a goalie on 19 games, if you did then I can come up with 19 game segments of hall of fame goaltenders that would prove they are "average".
Fact is goalies rely on players in front of them to limit the other team's high percentage chances, something the Wings were considerably bad at during the beginning of the season. And believe it or not, all goalies tend to struggle when the team in front of them turns the puck over and can't score more than a goal a game.



This is a good point. It is only my opinion at this point. His career stats do look very nice. Im not going to take credit away from him completely and give it to the current defense or team. They go hand in hand. The defense is only good if Howard's good and vice versa. We will see a year from now if my opinion is accurate.

#414 Number19

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

By the way just for reference, Patrick Roy's age 27 season he had a .894 SV%, and 3.20 GAA in 62 games just wanted to clarify that.

 

Carry on.

And at 28 his numbers were .918 SV% 2.50 GAA and at 26 they were .914 SV% 2.36 GAA but nice cherry picking his worst statistical season of his career by miles Those numbers aren't that bad in comparison to the league and era. In fact they are borderline elite. http://www.quanthock...lies-stats.html 8th in SV% (6th in starters) 10th in GAA (also 6th in starters) obliterates Howard's current standing (something like 25th in the league before tonight). Oh and he stepped it up at age 27 with 2.13 GAA and a .929 SV% in the playoff WINNING the Conn Smythe. Good job showing your knowledge in history of this game.


 

Don't try to argue with logic and reason. Clearly Mrazek and Monster are much better goalies then Roy

What does this even mean? Where did I imply that? lol


Edited by Number19, 05 March 2013 - 11:10 PM.


#415 13dangledangle

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

This is a good point. It is only my opinion at this point. His career stats do look very nice. Im not going to take credit away from him completely and give it to the current defense or team. They go hand in hand. The defense is only good if Howard's good and vice versa. We will see a year from now if my opinion is accurate.

I cannot believe we have 21 pages of this. 


Edited by 13dangledangle, 05 March 2013 - 11:04 PM.

....Ladies and Gentlemen Jimmy "F%$*ing" Howard.

#416 Richdg

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:04 PM

And at 28 his numbers were .918 2.50 and at 26 they were .914 2.36 but nice cherry picking his worst statistical season of his career by miles (and ironically those numbers aren't that bad in comparison to the league and era). Oh and btw he stepped it up at age 27 with 2.13 GAA and a .929 SV% in the playoffs. A .894 is way above .900 in today's league.



What does this even mean? Where did I imply that? lol

In other words, Roy's number are very similier to Howards at the same ages..... 2.13 in 09/10, 2.79 in 10/11, and 2.26 in 11/12. The years Howard was 25, 26, and 27.



#417 Number19

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:14 PM

In other words, Roy's number are very similier to Howards at the same ages..... 2.13 in 09/10, 2.79 in 10/11, and 2.26 in 11/12. The years Howard was 25, 26, and 27.

No, they aren't. Scoring was higher back then, the game was different, goalies weren't wearing mattresses as pads, talent wasn't watered down by 3 more expansion teams. Lots of variables. Ever wonder why Roy's GAA and SV (and every other elite goalie of the 80s early 90s) were astronomically higher than when he was in his prime? Are you going to tell me Howard is on the same wave-length of Roy? Let alone a PRIME Roy?


Edited by Number19, 05 March 2013 - 11:14 PM.


#418 fat guy in a maltby jersey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:17 PM

LGW, where red wings fans compare jimmy howard to patrick f***ing roy.

 

i'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.



#419 Number19

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:21 PM

Before this thread becomes a crash course in advanced statistics and comparisons between eras and gets too off track let me make it clear I'm not asking Howard to be Roy. He never will be and doesn't have to be in order for this team to win. I'm just asking maybe Grant Fuhr-lite or even Osgood meaning, make the save when it counts (last 3 min of the 3rd).


Edited by Number19, 05 March 2013 - 11:21 PM.


#420 Carman

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:39 PM

And at 28 his numbers were .918 SV% 2.50 GAA and at 26 they were .914 SV% 2.36 GAA but nice cherry picking his worst statistical season of his career by miles Those numbers aren't that bad in comparison to the league and era. In fact they are borderline elite. http://www.quanthock...lies-stats.html 8th in SV% (6th in starters) 10th in GAA (also 6th in starters) obliterates Howard's current standing (something like 25th in the league before tonight). Oh and he stepped it up at age 27 with 2.13 GAA and a .929 SV% in the playoff WINNING the Conn Smythe. Good job showing your knowledge in history of this game.


 

What does this even mean? Where did I imply that? lol

My point was that all goalies go through rough strecthes, even hall of famers. That's it.


Edited by Carman, 05 March 2013 - 11:40 PM.






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