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#681 darkmanx

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:33 PM

So..... cut/trade Howard and go forward with Gus-hurt again and mrasek-getting torched tonight. RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTTTT............

 

You do realize Howard lost by the exact same goal differential as Mrazek right ?



#682 number9

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:42 PM

#1 - #4
#4 - #6
#6 - #6

Hard to be a successful Starter with that crew in front of you. Howard is a legit starter, just not elite, much like Osgood. He can take us to the promise land but we HAVE TO upgrade at D, or at least have D, Smith, Kindl take big steps forward. Kindl really stepped up in the playoffs last year, and Smith looked great with sheltered minutes in his debut. If they can mature to that we'll be great

#683 Mitchmac33

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:58 PM

Does no one remember the last two years?



#684 number9

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:03 PM

Does no one remember the last two years?


Nope. LGWers live in the moment. Mood swing to mood swing.

#685 gcom007

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:52 AM

#1 - #4
#4 - #6
#6 - #6

Hard to be a successful Starter with that crew in front of you. Howard is a legit starter, just not elite, much like Osgood. He can take us to the promise land but we HAVE TO upgrade at D, or at least have D, Smith, Kindl take big steps forward. Kindl really stepped up in the playoffs last year, and Smith looked great with sheltered minutes in his debut. If they can mature to that we'll be great

 

The difference between Howard and Osgood though is that Osgood, despite being an incredibly relaxed and non-stereotypical goalie, still had an ego and cockiness that he fought for and believed in. When people say he didn't get rattled and could just turn the page on a bad game, it's because he really could, because there was never a moment in his career where he didn't believe that he could get it done when it counted. If you really listened to Osgood through the years, it's hard not to pick up on how quietly competitive he is. The guy had no problem going toe to toe with his coach to the media, because as much as he's a fun-loving team-first guy, he never stopped believing in Chris Osgood either. When Osgood had terrible games or gave up terrible goals, he'd look flummoxed and dissatisfied, but he never looked defeated, and when it mattered most, he came back the next day and played lights out. Chris Osgood always believed in Chris Osgood and nothing ever shook that, even in his final year when he struggled while only getting a start every 4-5 weeks.

 

That's why Chris Osgood won himself two Stanley Cups as a starter, and I have no doubts that he could've gotten the job done in 2002 when he was shipped off for Dom. And if not for a decimated squad, he would've likely had a 3rd ring in 2009 while pulling perhaps the most classic Osgood turnaround of them all.

 

Jimmy Howard is definitely relaxed compared to most goalies, but he is not at all relaxed like Osgood was, at least yet. Jimmy Howard is very good at saying that he doesn't let stuff get to him, but far more often than not, his face says otherwise, on and off the ice. His neurotic tendencies betray his stock lines, as he tends to waver between apathy and depression in terms of his tone when things are bad, which they've often been, to being far too excited after the little victories. Mentally, he's just not that tough yet. Everyone knew it when it took him ages to develop too. He took too long to put in the work to be physically ready and almost squandered his chance to be an NHL goalie because of it. If he was inherently confident and hungry enough, he would've been on this team a lot sooner, and his first season wouldn't have started out as the giant question mark-shaped last chance that it was.

 

His first season and last season were clearly his best seasons thus far, and both were seasons where he was forced by external circumstances to be the goalie his skill might allow him to be consistently if he was better at channeling it. If he didn't get it together in his rookie year, his NHL hopes would be all but dashed. Last year he had to play for the long term contract that would not have been on the table if he had just an average year coming off a very questionable playoff performance. This year, he's got the long term deal, he's got the big money, and he's been perfectly lousy, injured team or not. We know how capable Howard is, and we've seen him carry injured teams that didn't deserve to deserve to be in games, and those teams would post winning streaks on his efforts. But he hasn't come close to looking like the goalie that this season, and it's terrible timing after signing a deal like he signed and dealing with all of the injuries, and you know he knows it too. What scares me is that he still hasn't figured out a way to play around it and it's March.

 

To be perfectly honest, I like Jimmy Howard a lot and I really want to see him find success here. He clearly has a tremendous amount of skill, and if we're just looking at raw skill and physical potential, it's obvious that he has the tools to be a better and more successful goalie than Osgood was, and I don't say that to minimize Osgood's skill set and hockey brain. I always felt that Osgood was under-appreciated and largely misunderstood, and I think he's a far better goalie than most are willing to admit. But Howard should be better, if we're just talking physical skills, not to mention the huge size advantage. I'm more than convinced that the only thing holding him back though is that he's just not nearly as mentally tough as Osgood was, and he doesn't seem to be taking active steps to really grow in that area. He can do it. I really have no doubt that it's possible, but I'm starting to worry that it's going to be a situation that won't e able to come to fruition in Detroit, especially with Babcock as coach. And if I'm choosing between Babcock and Howard, it's Babcock any day.

 

Osgood may have had great defensive squads playing in front of him, but he played every bit as great as they did when it mattered most. Hell, after a crazy career and a crazy season in which he was supposed to be a backup to the inimitable Dominik Hasek, he lead the Wings to the Stanley Cup Finals, went toe to toe with the golden boy of the NHL, and shut his team out in games one and two. No ordinary goalie posts two shutouts to open up the Stanley Cup Finals against Sidney Crosby and the Penguins, let alone at the age of 35. He was probably second in votes for the Conn Smythe that year but still won his Cup, and had the Wings pulled out that game 7 in the Finals, Osgood easily would've walked away with the Conn Smythe. With as much as Osgood always had going against him, he never gave up, never stopped believing in himself, and as his career went on, he became a master at channeling adversity and flipping the switch to elevate his game when it mattered most.

 

As much as I like Howard and believe in his potential to get there, he is just not operating on that level yet.

 

He's not even close.


-Elliot...does not panic.

#686 Nev

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:47 AM

Does no one remember the last two years?

 

The irony of this thread is that most of it is mocking the Howard haters after his brilliant play last season.  Constantly got bumped after every great performance with a mocking "JAverage" comment.

 

But just like this season, the Howard haters are silent when he goes 44/45 to win us a game, as soon as we lose a game (even if we're shut out!) they're out in force calling for his head.  I'm not going to pretend he's been great this season, he's been out of sorts mostly, but he's had his moments, and he's proved his worth in the past.  Few players indeed are great every single season.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#687 cnot19

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:48 AM

As someone who observes and examines alot of goalies and plays goalie, Howard's puck handling is very below average his glove hand is above average, blocker side is well well below average, rebound control at times it's awesome at times it's terrible, his poke check is non existent at this point it really may be below a minor league goalie, again his angles are great at times but also incredibly out of place at times, and finally I feel like his biggest weakness is the second shot he does not move fluidly side to side
I do not mean to put monsters abilities or stats over his but simply put he brings more wins looking at the games monsters rebounds are pushed or kicked pretty far away or covered which allows his unorthadox slide to get in position

Edited by cnot19, 12 March 2014 - 01:50 AM.

Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#688 Euro_Twins

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:16 AM

As someone who observes and examines alot of goalies and plays goalie, Howard's puck handling is very below average his glove hand is above average, blocker side is well well below average, rebound control at times it's awesome at times it's terrible, his poke check is non existent at this point it really may be below a minor league goalie, again his angles are great at times but also incredibly out of place at times, and finally I feel like his biggest weakness is the second shot he does not move fluidly side to side
I do not mean to put monsters abilities or stats over his but simply put he brings more wins looking at the games monsters rebounds are pushed or kicked pretty far away or covered which allows his unorthadox slide to get in position


Putting wins aside monsters stats are pretty much identical to howies he has not been better, and holy is not a below average minor league goalie...

#689 number9

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:10 AM

As someone who observes and examines alot of goalies and plays goalie, Howard's puck handling is very below average his glove hand is above average, blocker side is well well below average, rebound control at times it's awesome at times it's terrible, his poke check is non existent at this point it really may be below a minor league goalie, again his angles are great at times but also incredibly out of place at times, and finally I feel like his biggest weakness is the second shot he does not move fluidly side to side
I do not mean to put monsters abilities or stats over his but simply put he brings more wins looking at the games monsters rebounds are pushed or kicked pretty far away or covered which allows his unorthadox slide to get in position


Then why is above average minor league goalie Mrazek not starting every game?

#690 darkmanx

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:40 AM

Then why is above average minor league goalie Mrazek not starting every game?

 

Same reason Anthony Mantha isn't on the Wings. It doesn't work that way.

 

I actually like Howard, he was great last year, but I don't care what Howard has done in the past because it doesn't translate into this year. We have lost every year he was in net in the playoffs, not entirely his fault but other goaltenders with less talent in front of them find a way to get it done (Rangers, Leafs, Nashville, Phoenix). We are better then all those teams the last couple years.

 

He just can't get it done, and I highly doubt we win a cup with him. He's getting paid as a top 10 goalie, yet his stats show he's a top 25 goalie.



#691 number9

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:11 AM

 

Same reason Anthony Mantha isn't on the Wings. It doesn't work that way.

 

I actually like Howard, he was great last year, but I don't care what Howard has done in the past because it doesn't translate into this year. We have lost every year he was in net in the playoffs, not entirely his fault but other goaltenders with less talent in front of them find a way to get it done (Rangers, Leafs, Nashville, Phoenix). We are better then all those teams the last couple years.

 

He just can't get it done, and I highly doubt we win a cup with him. He's getting paid as a top 10 goalie, yet his stats show he's a top 25 goalie.

Mrazek didn't get it done last game either. Our D is piss poor right now and I wouldn't expect any goalie to put up top 10 stats with it.

Lundqvist isn't an ordinary starter... He's up there with other elite guys like Rinne. His top 4 D also isn't as bad as ours.

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Klein

Leafs have had baddddd goaltending not good. I also like there top 4 better though.

Phaneuf - Gleason
Gunnarson - Franson

Nashville has always been strong in net and at D, especially when they had Suter. And they have an elite guy in Rinne.

Jones - Weber
Josi - Del Zotto

Smith is equal to Howard IMO. They're top 4 is better than ours though

Yandle - E-Larsson
Michalek - Morris

None of those teams have "gotten it done in the playoffs" either though, so what's your point?


Edited by number9, 12 March 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#692 roboturner

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

Then why is above average minor league goalie Mrazek not starting every game?

I took it to mean his poke-checking ability is below that of a minor league goalie. And its probably true. There are so, so many little things Howard could improve at, but he won't because he just doesn't want to put the time in.

 

 

The difference between Howard and Osgood though is that Osgood, despite being an incredibly relaxed and non-stereotypical goalie, still had an ego and cockiness that he fought for and believed in. When people say he didn't get rattled and could just turn the page on a bad game, it's because he really could, because there was never a moment in his career where he didn't believe that he could get it done when it counted. If you really listened to Osgood through the years, it's hard not to pick up on how quietly competitive he is. The guy had no problem going toe to toe with his coach to the media, because as much as he's a fun-loving team-first guy, he never stopped believing in Chris Osgood either. When Osgood had terrible games or gave up terrible goals, he'd look flummoxed and dissatisfied, but he never looked defeated, and when it mattered most, he came back the next day and played lights out. Chris Osgood always believed in Chris Osgood and nothing ever shook that, even in his final year when he struggled while only getting a start every 4-5 weeks.....

 

This whole post! (didn't want to quote the whole thing)

Howie seems like he has huge confidence issues. It seems like he doesn't feel comfortable doing the little things a goalie should do. Sure, he comes up with a huge save every once in a while (even those are few and far between. I don't count when a goalie snatches the puck up & flashes the leather, only to look at the replay and realize the puck had no chance of going in the net. Great reflexes, sure. Just not a huge important save!)

 

But, that shouldn't have any impact on his ability to do "other" things a goalie should do. I just saw they are thinking about removing the trapezoid. Is it really going to be beneficial to have a goalie who refuses to leave his crease and couldn't set up our D-men with a good pass to save his career? Or are we going forward with a below average goalie (at stopping the puck) and way below average at most other things.

 

Every single time he gets the puck behind the net he either drops it and wastes a bunch of time during a power-play, or he fires it up the boards at waist height towards hopefully one of our guys who can't catch the pass anyway because it's at their f****** waist!!

 

Look, there's alot of things that this Wings team used to be great at that they for some reason have gotten away from (puck possession, those Lids to Homer screen/tip play, Seriously why haven't we tried those recently? Nobody took any notes while Lids was here?!). So there is obviously more to blame for the wings struggles than who's in net. But that doesn't mean you just ignore the problems in net, or pretend they don't matter or that they don't even exist!


Edited by roboturner, 12 March 2014 - 03:38 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#693 number9

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:55 AM

I took it to mean his poke-checking ability is below that of a minor league goalie. And its probably true. There are so, so many little things Howard could improve at, but he won't because he just doesn't want to put the time in.
 
This whole post! (didn't want to quote the whole thing)

Howie seems like he has huge confidence issues. It seems like he doesn't feel comfortable doing the little things a goalie should do. Sure, he comes up with a huge save every once in a while (even those are few and far between. I don't count when a goalie snatches the puck up & flashes the leather, only to look at the replay and realize the puck had no chance of going in the net. Great reflexes, sure. Just not a huge important save!)
But, that shouldn't have any impact on his ability to do "other" things a goalie should do. I just saw they are thinking about removing the trapezoid. Is it really going to be beneficial to have a goalie who refuses to leave his crease and couldn't set up our D-men with a good pass to save his career? Or are we going forward with a below average goalie (at stopping the puck) and way below average at most other things. Every single time he gets the puck behind the net he either drops it and wastes a bunch of time during a power-play, or he fires it up the boards at waist height towards hopefully one of our guys who can't catch the pass anyway because it's at theirf****** waist!!
 
Look, there's alot of things that this Wings team used to be great at that they for some reason have gotten away from (puck possession, those Lids to Homer screen/tip play, Seriously why haven't we tried those recently? Nobody took any notes while Lids was here?!). So there is obviously more to blame for the wings struggles than who's in net. But that doesn't mean you just ignore the problems in net, or pretend they don't matter or that they don't even exist!


Simply put, having another Homer and Lids would be great.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom
Rafalski - Lidstrom

Was a sickkkkk PP unit

Homer screened the goalie and tipped in shots from Lids and Raffi. He also took a Dman out of the play so Dats and Z had more room to make magic.

Unfortunately 3 of those stars are gone. Leaving us with only 1 QB in Kronwall (who isn't as good as Raffi or lids at shooting and puck movement) and Franzen who's better utilized around the net, not in front of it

#694 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:00 AM

Despite the Rangers and Leafs non of the mentioned teams has our resources and well Reimer Bernier is far from being a bad duo.

Defense wins championships sure offense is needed too but it's less important. The Wings top 4 is basically top 3 + x and thats not good enough in a leagiue with so much parity.

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#695 roboturner

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:28 PM

Simply put, having another Homer and Lids would be great.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom
Rafalski - Lidstrom

Was a sickkkkk PP unit

Homer screened the goalie and tipped in shots from Lids and Raffi. He also took a Dman out of the play so Dats and Z had more room to make magic.

Unfortunately 3 of those stars are gone. Leaving us with only 1 QB in Kronwall (who isn't as good as Raffi or lids at shooting and puck movement) and Franzen who's better utilized around the net, not in front of it

I realize those guys are gone, but I don't understand why the coaching staff can't see what was going right in those days and try and get our guys to do the same. Is it really that difficult to find/coach players that are willing to at least try some of these things.

 

Edit: This isn't really relevant to Howard's play anyway. I was just pointing out that there are other factors contributing to our current play.


Edited by roboturner, 12 March 2014 - 12:35 PM.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#696 Richdg

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:20 PM

There is no true way to measure players or goalies. But the 2 best ways to measure goalies are: save% and GAA. neither is perfect on its own. So combining those 2 numbers can be effective. Now this will take time to type, but here we go. All numbers are the career numbers for every goalie that has played in 35 or more games this year.

 

Save %:

1. Rask .927

2. Schneider .925

3. Bishop .922

4. Lundqvist .920

4. Thomas .920

5. Rinne .919

5. Luongo .919

5. Bernier .919

6. Holtby .918

7. Halak .917

7. Hiller .917

7. Bobvowsky .917

7. Howard .917

8. Varlomov .916

8. Miller .916

8. Price .916

8. Niemi .916

9. Quick .915

9. Lehtonen .915

10. Crawford .914

10. Smith .914

10. Anderson .914

 

Just for reference, Brodeur's career save % is .912.

 

GAA:

1. Rask 2.15

2. Schneider 2.16

3. Brodeur 2.24

4. Lundqvist 2.27

5. Quick 2.28

6. Niemi 2.34

7. Rinne 2.36

7. Bishop 2.36

8. Crawford 2.37

9. Halak 2.38

10. Howard 2.40

11. Bernier 2.46

12. Hiller 2.48

13. Bobvrovsky 2.49

14. Luongo 2.51

14. Thomas 2.51

15. Price 2.53

16. Varlomov 2.57

17. Miller 2.59

17. Smith 2.59

18. Fleury 2.61

19. Holtby 2.64

20. Lehtonen 2.68

21. Anderson 2.76

22. Mason 2.82

23. Pavelec 2.96

 

Now, take those 2 lists, and average those together. here is what you have for their careers:

 

1. Rask

2. Schneider

3. Lundqvist

4. Bishop

5. Rinne

6. Quick

6. Niemi

7. Halak

7. bernier

8. Howard

9. Thomas

9. Crawford

10. Hiller

10. Luongo



#697 cnot19

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:29 PM

Putting wins aside monsters stats are pretty much identical to howies he has not been better, and holy is not a below average minor league goalie...


I never meant to say he was a below average minor league goalie maybe I was too dramatic what I was trying to say is there are parts of his game that are well below average
Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#698 Larryd

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

My opinion is that Howard is too immature to be playing pro.

Last year, he gave up 3 quick goals  then skated off claiming loss of vision. Seems like everytim he's on a losing streak he claims injury or sickness. Now he say he has the flu after at least 2 bad games. On Feb. 7th I read where the flu season was winding down.

Maybe he is sick but lets see what happens if he continues to give up goals..



#699 Richdg

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:54 PM

Now the point in what I posted above is, Howard is clearly a top 10 goalie. depending on the year he is somewhere between the 6th and 10th best in the league. The really isn't any debate about this. The numbers don't lie.

Now is he having a bad year by his standards? yes. he has had a bad knee all year long. For the RW's this year, that is a broken record. But history says he will bounce back and have a great year next year. he is only 29, signed long term, and to date hasn't had his career year yet.

In 2009/10, 2011/12, and 2012/13 Howard had save% of .920 or better and GAA's of 2.26 or better in each year. This year and 2010/11 his numbers are worse. There are only 5 other G's in the NHL with career save % better than .920 (Rask, Schneider, Bishop, lundqvist, and Thomas) and only 3 that have career GAA better than 2.26 (rask, Schneider, and Brodeur). That is it. 6 guys that one can say are better than Howard has been over their careers. That is a very small list. 1 of which is the greatest G of all time.



#700 number9

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:16 PM

Now the point in what I posted above is, Howard is clearly a top 10 goalie. depending on the year he is somewhere between the 6th and 10th best in the league. The really isn't any debate about this. The numbers don't lie.
Now is he having a bad year by his standards? yes. he has had a bad knee all year long. For the RW's this year, that is a broken record. But history says he will bounce back and have a great year next year. he is only 29, signed long term, and to date hasn't had his career year yet.
In 2009/10, 2011/12, and 2012/13 Howard had save% of .920 or better and GAA's of 2.26 or better in each year. This year and 2010/11 his numbers are worse. There are only 5 other G's in the NHL with career save % better than .920 (Rask, Schneider, Bishop, lundqvist, and Thomas) and only 3 that have career GAA better than 2.26 (rask, Schneider, and Brodeur). That is it. 6 guys that one can say are better than Howard has been over their careers. That is a very small list. 1 of which is the greatest G of all time.


A positive post??? C'mon guys even Rich thinks Howard is good





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