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Howard = Average


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#81 GoalieManPat

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:02 AM

I havent read the whole thread because I already know its full of the standard Detroit fan illogically blaming the goalie syndrome. But I will agree with the title Howard=Average... in one game this year. The rest of them he has been the Wings most consistent player along with Hank. If you think Howard is the problem you really need to start understanding the game of hockey and not base your opinion your pure idiocy. Mrazek may be the future but if you think the Wings will win more games this year with him as the starter then I am glad you have no part in running the wings. The rating of this thread just shows how stupid the OP's post is.


Edited by GoalieManPat, 07 February 2013 - 09:03 AM.


#82 JPT

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:19 AM

I would agree that Jimmy Howard isn't among the top goalies in the NHL. His rebound control is consistently bad.I don't see him ever stealing a series in the playoffs for us but these days you don't need the best goalie just a good one.



#83 evilzyme

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:32 AM

I would agree that Jimmy Howard isn't among the top goalies in the NHL. His rebound control is consistently bad.I don't see him ever stealing a series in the playoffs for us but these days you don't need the best goalie just a good one.

 

I remember.. vaguely.... that he wait yes, yes he did.. that man nearly saved our asses against San Jose! The stuff that people say on this forum sometimes... my god


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#84 Buppy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

I want to say Jimmy is above average, as there aren't many goalies that are really any better. Rinne, Lundqvist (though his stats this year aren't much better than Jimmy's), maybe Quick (though last year was the first year he really stood out), Luongo (even with the occasional playoff implosion)...

 

But then I realized there aren't many that are really any worse either. Lot of "sameness" among the goalie ranks these days.



#85 JPT

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:54 PM

I remember.. vaguely.... that he wait yes, yes he did.. that man nearly saved our asses against San Jose! The stuff that people say on this forum sometimes... my god

Last time I checked to steal a series you have to actually win. Which we did not. He played well for sure. No doubt he's a good goalie most of the time. But he's not elite. Those I would rate higher than Howard:

 

Lundqvist

Rinne

Quick

Price

Miller

Luongo

Bryz

Kiprusoff

 

Maybe you would argue with a few of these and maybe some other goalies I didn't list would rate higher than Howard. But he probably is not in the top 3rd of goaltenders in the NHL



#86 Carman

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

Last time I checked to steal a series you have to actually win. Which we did not. He played well for sure. No doubt he's a good goalie most of the time. But he's not elite. Those I would rate higher than Howard:

 

Lundqvist

Rinne

Quick

Price

Miller

Luongo

Bryz

Kiprusoff

 

Maybe you would argue with a few of these and maybe some other goalies I didn't list would rate higher than Howard. But he probably is not in the top 3rd of goaltenders in the NHL

Let's take a look at career stats shall we.

 

.916 SV% 2.44 Howard

.916 SV% 2.31 Quick

.917 SV% 2.53 Price

.915 SV% 2.58 Miller

.915 SV% 2.52 Bryz

.913 SV% 2.46 Kiprusoff

 

And if you want to say well right now Howard's stats aren't good and he's playing without LIdstrom for the first time, I can find 10 game segments of Brodeur, Sawchuck, Roy, Hasek having worse stats then Howard.

 

Like I said, Howard is taken for granted here, he's not elite, but really Lundqvist, Rinne, and to an extent Luongo are the only goalies that are statistically elite for more than one year. And each of those goalies have had their struggles behind a crap defense.


Edited by Carman, 07 February 2013 - 01:14 PM.


#87 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:33 PM

Let's take a look at career stats shall we.

 

.916 SV% 2.44 Howard

.916 SV% 2.31 Quick

.917 SV% 2.53 Price

.915 SV% 2.58 Miller

.915 SV% 2.52 Bryz

.913 SV% 2.46 Kiprusoff

 

And if you want to say well right now Howard's stats aren't good and he's playing without LIdstrom for the first time, I can find 10 game segments of Brodeur, Sawchuck, Roy, Hasek having worse stats then Howard.

 

Like I said, Howard is taken for granted here, he's not elite, but really Lundqvist, Rinne, and to an extent Luongo are the only goalies that are statistically elite for more than one year. And each of those goalies have had their struggles behind a crap defense.

 

Having seen him play a lot, Quick is capable of playing at a level I've not seen Howard reach, but in general Howard is plenty good. 

 

as I think I said earlier, of all the problems to complain about with the Wings, Howard isn't anywhere near the top of that list. 



#88 evilzyme

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

Last time I checked to steal a series you have to actually win. Which we did not. He played well for sure. No doubt he's a good goalie most of the time. But he's not elite. Those I would rate higher than Howard:

 

Lundqvist

Rinne

Quick

Price

Miller

Luongo

Bryz

Kiprusoff

 

Maybe you would argue with a few of these and maybe some other goalies I didn't list would rate higher than Howard. But he probably is not in the top 3rd of goaltenders in the NHL

 

To say that he didn't absolutely hold us in most games, and in general the series is uncanny. Did he steal the series? No, but it doesn't go that way when your offense can't score any goals. Last season, Howard kept us in the series with Nashville, the only reason why we lost? We couldn't get it past Rinne and their defense. Give Howard a defensive system, valid defensemen, and he sure as hell would be considered "elite." Unfortunately, we don't play a defensive system, so he hasn't had the luxury that others have had. I suppose Vancouver, Phoenix, Philly, Calgary, the Rangers, Nashville, Buffalo and Montreal have won numerous cups because apparently to you, those goalies can steal games. The only goalie you listed there, that took his team to a cup was Quick, inwhich he had a defensive system in front of him and numerous hard working grinders. 


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#89 Ram

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:56 PM

Did you view Quick as an "elite" goalie before last year, and further into the playoffs? I thought he really blew up onto the scene during the Kings playoff run. Jimmy's capable of doing that.

 

Jimmy is not the problem.


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#90 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

Im glad everyone recognizes that he's not elite. Thats my main point. With the squad we got right now, we need an elite keeper.

 


Everyone huh? Selective reading?

 

We're thinking too emotionally. We're entitled little babies, let's be honest and if Jimmy isn't giving us the lights out goaltending we're afraid every other team but us has, we lose our s*** on him and claim he's not elite. 1:1, just pure skill wise, I'd put Jimmy top 5 today. I don't care about any of the forum groupthink, I don't care about stats, I see a goalie who with a little help can be a champion. He makes huge saves, he keeps us in games (even if we're too blind to notice) and I think he's better than some of the last few goalies to win a Cup. I think some of us are just playing it safe. Jimmy hasn't won, but when he does, then we'll feel comfortable calling him elite. Talk about having no confidence in your ability to judge a player. Just run with the crowd, keep a safe opinion, draw no attention. That's weak. Either stand behind what your eyes tell you, or admit you don't know enough to judge from what you see and shut up.

 

Quick wasn't elite until he won. Is Antii Niemi elite? Sports fans just can't fathom that an individual's performance in a team game is based much on the team around him. In ways most people won't notice or understand, but such is with the overly confident, if we don't see it, it must not exist.


Edited by shoobiedoobin, 07 February 2013 - 01:59 PM.


#91 GMRwings1983

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

Let's take a look at career stats shall we.

 

.916 SV% 2.44 Howard

.916 SV% 2.31 Quick

.917 SV% 2.53 Price

.915 SV% 2.58 Miller

.915 SV% 2.52 Bryz

.913 SV% 2.46 Kiprusoff

 

And if you want to say well right now Howard's stats aren't good and he's playing without LIdstrom for the first time, I can find 10 game segments of Brodeur, Sawchuck, Roy, Hasek having worse stats then Howard.

 

Like I said, Howard is taken for granted here, he's not elite, but really Lundqvist, Rinne, and to an extent Luongo are the only goalies that are statistically elite for more than one year. And each of those goalies have had their struggles behind a crap defense.

 

Sure, when Sawchuk played, goalies put up worse numbers than Manny Legace.  Different era.  Same with Hasek, Brodeur and Roy upon first entering the league.  Back then, a save percentage of .900 was considered good.  

 

And Howard started his career playing behind the best top 4 defensemen in the league.  Not many goalies can say that.  His numbers will come back down now that he's playing behind an average NHL team.  You know, kind of like most teams.      

 

Not sure why you mentioned Bryzgalov?  Probably because he's the only goalie Howard can beat in a playoff series.  Nobody thinks he's elite.  


Edited by GMRwings1983, 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM.

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#92 Carman

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:59 PM

Sure, when Sawchuk played, goalies put up worse numbers than Manny Legace.  Different era.  Same with Hasek, Brodeur and Roy upon first entering the league.  Back then, a save percentage of .900 was considered good.  

 

And Howard started his career playing behind the best top 4 defensemen in the league.  Not many goalies can say that.  His numbers will come back down now that he's playing behind an average NHL team.  You know, kind of like most teams.      

 

Not sure why you mentioned Bryzgalov?  Probably because he's the only goalie Howard can beat in a playoff series.  Nobody thinks he's elite.  

 

The guy I quoted. And I know it was a different game, fact is goalies go through bad stretches, that's all I meant.



#93 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:00 PM


 

Not sure why you mentioned Bryzgalov?  Probably because he's the only goalie Howard can beat in a playoff series.  Nobody thinks he's elite.  

Yeah because it's just a goalie vs a goalie in a game that features 40-some players over 7 games. I just can't understand why hockey fans believe this type of crap and consider their opinion worth a damn.



#94 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:03 PM

Did you view Quick as an "elite" goalie before last year, and further into the playoffs? I thought he really blew up onto the scene during the Kings playoff run. Jimmy's capable of doing that.

 

Jimmy is not the problem.

 

Yes.  Quick was elite all last season.  The Kings couldn't score goals to save their lives and he held them in a lot of games they had no business even being in. 

 

I know they don't really like to include many goalies in the nominations but he would've been a deserving candidate for the Hart.  Kings fans were chanting "MVP" when Quick stole another game even before the playoffs began. 

 

The playoffs and Cup run brought attention and legitimized his performance to the rest of the hockey world.  As for before last season, it's hard to say.  He was very good on an underachieving team but honestly it is hard to call someone truly elite when they don't have some hardware or at least stellar playoff runs to back it up. 



#95 Krayzie_Bone

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

I told you all this guy was just average and would struggle without #5. Seems like the Mrazek train is leaving the station and everyone is getting on board. I punched my ticket.

 

I think that is bulls***. To me Howard is a very good goalie and the D is below average. Even with Lindstrom the D was below average.



#96 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

Yeah because it's just a goalie vs a goalie in a game that features 40-some players over 7 games. I just can't understand why hockey fans believe this type of crap and consider their opinion worth a damn.

 

So what we should just never compare anyone ever because there are many different factors and variables that go into every outcome?

 

Then whats the point of following the sport? 



#97 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

So what we should just never compare anyone ever because there are many different factors and variables that go into every outcome?

 

Then whats the point of following the sport? 

That obviously wasn't the idea. The point was that it's illogical to try and turn a team game with 40 odd people competing for 60 minutes into simply just "goalie a vs goalie b". No goalie beats another goalie in the playoffs. He and his team beat the other team.

 

We just want a simple way to lay judgment and an easy tool to allow us to praise one goalie as superior. Analysis takes hockey IQ and effort. We like quick and easy and safe.



#98 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

That obviously wasn't the idea. The point was that it's illogical to try and turn a team game with 40 odd people competing for 60 minutes into simply just "goalie a vs goalie b". No goalie beats another goalie in the playoffs. He and his team beat the other team.

 

We just want a simple way to lay judgment and an easy tool to allow us to praise one goalie as superior. Analysis takes hockey IQ and effort. We like quick and easy and safe.

 

I see your point.  That's why I never really consider wins in any sport an individual category be it pitchers or goalies. 



#99 Barrie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

I'm glad I'm not someone who's always negative towards this team. I couldn't imagine having the same thoughts and stresses people here have towards the Wings. It's entertainment people! At some point you need to be proud of what you've witnessed as a fan. No fan base in the NHL has enjoyed the same amount of winning as we've had since the Oilers of the 1980's. Since the mid-90's, only Yankees fans have witnessed a better championship run.

 

Losing the 2nd best defencemen of all time is going to take a little time to recover from, so it may take a few seasons to become an elite team again.

 

Edit: If you can't wait a few years, I suggest you jump on the Black Hawks or Penguins bandwagon!


Edited by Barrie, 07 February 2013 - 02:59 PM.

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#100 GMRwings1983

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:04 PM

I'm glad I'm not someone who's always negative towards this team. I couldn't imagine having the same thoughts and stresses people here have towards the Wings. It's entertainment people! At some point you need to be proud of what you've witnessed as a fan. No fan base in the NHL has enjoyed the same amount of winning as we've had since the Oilers of the 1980's. Since the mid-90's, only Yankees fans have witnessed a better championship run.

 

Losing the 2nd best defencemen of all time is going to take a little time to recover from, so it may take a few seasons to become an elite team again.

 

Edit: If you can't wait a few years, I suggest you jump on the Black Hawks or Penguins bandwagon!

 

I suggest you jump on the Panthers bandwagon, and show us what a true fan looks like.


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