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Howard = Average


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#161 Johnz96

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:30 AM

If you didn't see it, we were kindly asked to revert back to discussing Howard, not Osgood. So let's chalk this up to, you have your opinion and I have mine.

I think Howard is better than average



#162 FlashyG

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:34 AM

Take the red tinted glasses off. No defenseman in history did what Bobby Orr did. Hes easily #1. #2 aint bad for Lidstrom. And you consider Damian Brunner and Tootoo as "big splashes" hmmm. Theyve been good signings but far from big splashes. So winning a Cup has nothing to do with how good a squad is its all about getting hot. Right. Guess that 02 Wings team just got hot.

 

The Kings were the better team today and save for the 1st period it wasn't even close. They just ran into a hot goalie. Something which we Wings fans know something about. Its 6-2 atleast without Howard.

 

Of course the Kings were the better team today....They have been resting since Thursday, while the Wings played one of the fastest teams in the league less than 24 hours before taking on the Kings.

 

If the situation had been reversed the Wings probably would have blown out the Kings, especially with Quick playing like he did.

 

So far this season

Howard is 6-4-1 with a GAA of 2.78 and a SV% of .906 with 0 shutouts

Quick is 3-4-2 with a GAA of 2.70 a SV% of .891 with 0 shutouts.

 

Howard has also faced 90 more shots than Quick. Is Quick average too now?                        


Edited by FlashyG, 11 February 2013 - 01:40 AM.


#163 Johnz96

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:37 AM

If you didn't see it, we were kindly asked to revert back to discussing Howard, not Osgood. So let's chalk this up to, you have your opinion and I have mine.

I was using an elite goalie for comparison



#164 Euro_Twins

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

I think Howard is better than average

 

agreed, well above average



#165 cupforwings

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:19 AM

Take the red tinted glasses off. No defenseman in history did what Bobby Orr did. Hes easily #1. #2 aint bad for Lidstrom. And you consider Damian Brunner and Tootoo as "big splashes" hmmm. Theyve been good signings but far from big splashes. So winning a Cup has nothing to do with how good a squad is its all about getting hot. Right. Guess that 02 Wings team just got hot.

 

The Kings were the better team today and save for the 1st period it wasn't even close. They just ran into a hot goalie. Something which we Wings fans know something about. Its 6-2 atleast without Howard.

 

Your right, but I'll still take Lidstrom #1... And yeah, Brunner is leading the team in goals and is 10th in the league in goals.  So yeah, adding that offense in the top 6 is a big splash.  Besides Parise or Suter, he is the best Free agent we could have added.  And one of the biggest deficiencies on last years team was a lack of a physical, fast, 4th line player.  Tootoo satisfies this need.  So we are weaker on the back end, no doubt, but stronger at the forward position.  And Helm hasn't even played.

 

The NHL today is more about teams getting hot and being healthy at the right time.  LA was a good team last year and played their best hockey when it mattered.  But if they were so great, why did they barely sneak into the playoffs?  You cannot compare this to the 02 wings.  It is apples and oranges.  That team had an accumulation of talent never seen before on a team.  They clinched a playoff berth more than a month before any other team.  They didn't have to sneak in.  That was possible because there was no salary cap.  

 

In todays game, with the salary cap, the top 10 teams are so close in talent and skill that games and series can go either way.  Its parity.

 

And I agree, the Kings outplayed the wings today.  The wings were dead tired and the Kings were on two days rest.  But the Wings look better than the Kings so far this year, and probably will into the playoffs.



#166 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:00 AM

I was using an elite goalie for comparison



I see what you did there ;-)
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#167 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:13 AM

I know I shouldn't be surprised that yet another thread was turned into one about Osgood, but the topic is about Howard being average.  
 
Let's stick to that. 


Osgood is Jimmy's predecessor. He is what most most people compare Jimmy to. It is fair to point out that if Jimmy is being called average around here, it is comical that those same people think Osgood was among the best goalies of all time. (Using the 401 wins argument.)
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#168 SFwingsfan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:05 AM

What does "elite" mean anyways? Are the top 5 goalies in the league elite? Top 10? Who is going to argue that Howard isn't one of the top 10 goalies in the league? Come on, bring it on...........


Edited by SFwingsfan, 11 February 2013 - 09:05 AM.


#169 Vittorino Casiraghi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:36 AM

If it wasn't for Howard performance last night, we had lost.



#170 Richdg

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:52 AM

What does "elite" mean anyways? Are the top 5 goalies in the league elite? Top 10? Who is going to argue that Howard isn't one of the top 10 goalies in the league? Come on, bring it on...........

Bingo! At worst Howie is top 10. Heck one could make a good argument that G is our deepest and strongest position right now. Great starter, good backup in Gus (even though he is currently hurt) and 2 good young guys in the minors on the way.



#171 shoobiedoobin

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

Take the red tinted glasses off. No defenseman in history did what Bobby Orr did.

Cool. Lidstrom couldn't score like Orr. Orr couldn't play D like Lidstrom. I'll take that anyday. Orr as a myth has become bigger than Orr as a player. 



#172 Johnz96

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

Cool. Lidstrom couldn't score like Orr. Orr couldn't play D like Lidstrom. I'll take that anyday. Orr as a myth has become bigger than Orr as a player. 

Lidstrom wouldn't block shots like Orr clear the front of the net like Orr, battle in the corners like Orr, hit like Orr or fight like Orr.

Orr was +124 in 70-71, that's gotta be a record.

Or was not only the best defenseman ever but the best hockey player ever.
 


Edited by Johnz96, 11 February 2013 - 11:21 AM.


#173 amato

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:39 AM

If it wasn't for Howard performance last night, we had lost.


....and there are a lot of nights we can say the same thing. Howie > average. Can we change the topic title to that at least?

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#174 The Axe

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:05 PM

Howard ad one good game. And he still almost lost it. No way the Wings get a clutch cup run out of Howard.

#175 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:05 PM

What does "elite" mean anyways? Are the top 5 goalies in the league elite? Top 10? Who is going to argue that Howard isn't one of the top 10 goalies in the league? Come on, bring it on...........

 

Goalies in my opinion that are without a doubt better than Howard:

 

Jonnathon Quick

Tuukka Rask

Carey Price

Marc Andre Fleury

Tomas Vokoun

Jaroslav Halak

Pekka Rinne

Henrik Lundqvist

Roberto Luongo

Ryan Miller

Martin Brodeur

Cam Ward

 

That's 12 goalies, putting Howard 13th at best which is by definition, average.  Middle of the pack.  Again this is my opinion but that's where I'm coming from. 



#176 Euro_Twins

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:51 PM

let me fix that joke of a list for you...

 

Goalies in my opinion that are without a doubt better than Howard:

 

Jonnathon Quick

Tuukka Rask

Carey Price

Marc Andre Fleury

Tomas Vokoun

Jaroslav Halak (just a product of his system)

Pekka Rinne

Henrik Lundqvist

Roberto Luongo

Ryan Miller

Martin Brodeur

Cam Ward

 

That's 12 goalies, putting Howard 13th at best which is by definition, average.  Middle of the pack.  Again this is my opinion but that's where I'm coming from. 

 

I'll give you Vokoun in there, even though I believe him to be about the same as Jimmy. Quick, Price, and Fleury are in  no stretch of any imiganition better than Jimmy. Miller hasn't been good in about 2-3 years. Cam ward? Please. Even Luo has been very inconsistent over his career, but I'll leave that one up there for arguments sake. so 6 goalis I deem as good or better on your list, puts jimmy #7. I will take that



#177 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

Last time I checked to steal a series you have to actually win. Which we did not. He played well for sure. No doubt he's a good goalie most of the time. But he's not elite. Those I would rate higher than Howard:
 
Lundqvist
Rinne
Quick
Price
Miller
Luongo
Bryz
Kiprusoff
 
Maybe you would argue with a few of these and maybe some other goalies I didn't list would rate higher than Howard. But he probably is not in the top 3rd of goaltenders in the NHL


If you rate Bryzbythegoalline ahead of Howard then you sir are crazy. Howard = Price. As i stated before Howard needed to battle harder and fight to see the pucks. Hes done that the past couple games and only gave up 3 goals combined to the oilers and kings and has looked good. The Wings D sorted themselves oit too and have only given up 4 goals in the past 3 games

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#178 Carman

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:17 PM

Goalies in my opinion that are without a doubt better than Howard:

 

Jonnathon Quick

Tuukka Rask

Carey Price

Marc Andre Fleury

Tomas Vokoun

Jaroslav Halak

Pekka Rinne

Henrik Lundqvist

Roberto Luongo

Ryan Miller

Martin Brodeur

Cam Ward

 

That's 12 goalies, putting Howard 13th at best which is by definition, average.  Middle of the pack.  Again this is my opinion but that's where I'm coming from. 

You are crazy

 

.916 2.43 Howard

.916 2.31 Quick

.916 2.55 Price

.909 2.67 Fleury

.917 2.55 Vokoun

.918 2.42 Halak

.915 2.58 Miller

.910 2.75 Cam Ward

 

Is Howard as good as Brodeur, Lundqvist, Rask or Rinne? Probably not, but he's proven to be a top 10 goalie at the very least, and he has been a top 5 goalie before. Howard is very very good, if you don't think he's elite top 5 I understand, but how in the world can you have Fleury and Ward ahead of him? That's just crazy talk in my opinion.



#179 newfy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

Goalies in my opinion that are without a doubt better than Howard:

 

Jonnathon Quick

Tuukka Rask

Carey Price

Marc Andre Fleury

Tomas Vokoun

Jaroslav Halak

Pekka Rinne

Henrik Lundqvist

Roberto Luongo

Ryan Miller

Martin Brodeur

Cam Ward

 

That's 12 goalies, putting Howard 13th at best which is by definition, average.  Middle of the pack.  Again this is my opinion but that's where I'm coming from. 

 


 

Thats a pretty terrible list. MAF is not better than Howard, or did you miss the playoffs last year? Fleury has one season as a starter with a save percentage higher than .915. Howards worst season of his 3 (by far worst) is about equal to Fleury's career average.

 

Vokoun is a back up, if he was a top 10 goalie he wouldnt be signed dirt cheap and as a back up. Raask hasnt played a season as a starter yet, I think he's very good but hes also playing in front of a stud defense. Halak is more of a system goalie as well. He put up one good season in Montreal where Price was getting the hard starts and taking a tonne of critisism. Last year Halaks back up set the single season recrod for save percentage, its Hitchcocks system.

 

Some of those guys are a pretty big stretch to put a head of Howard and even still hes right on the cusp of top 10. I think hes lower in the top 10 but definitely top 10 none the less


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#180 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:31 PM

Osgood is Jimmy's predecessor. He is what most most people compare Jimmy to. It is fair to point out that if Jimmy is being called average around here, it is comical that those same people think Osgood was among the best goalies of all time. (Using the 401 wins argument.)

 

You're not using Osgood's career as a touchstone, you're using Jimmy as a way to turn the thread back into a debate about Ozzy.  Even your response to my warning is more about Osgood's career than having anything to do with Jimmy.  

 

The thread is ultimately about Howard being average or not and the side discussion of him being elite.  A more accurate way of judging Jimmy's averageness or not is to compare him with his peers in the NHL, not a goalie who hasn't played a game in 3 years. 

 

Everyone else has managed to find ways to discuss the topic without derailing the thread into Osgood's greatness or lack thereof.  Continue to troll about Osgood and you will be suspended.







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