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number9

Tomas Tatar Is Jiri Hudler 2.0

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If we'd had a real training camp this year, they very well might have. Their roles aren't exactly the same either. Also, being better doesn't necessarily mean they will be more effective in their rookie seasons. In their first years, Franzen and Flip were really no more effective than Miller/Eaves/Cleary, and look at them now. Why give up guys (who wouldn't bring much of anything in trade), lessen our organizational depth, to bring up kids who aren't likely to make much, if any, difference?

I don't think anyone really expects Nyquist or Tatar to be stars, much less stars in their rookie seasons. But you don't have to be a star to be more than Emmy or Eaves.

And for the record, Hudler was, and is, a very good player. If Tatar turns out so well we should all be pretty happy. That would be a nice result from the 60th pick.

Now that he finally will get the ice-time he desreves Hudler is going to prove Babcock and a lot of people here wrong about him.

You clearly have me confussed with someone else. I am not nor have ever been a Wild fan, nor has anyone ever accussed me of being one.

The point I was making and stand by, AHL points mean nothing in regards to predicting NHL performence. This is true in every sport, it just isn't the same.

I do have a question for those that believe these guys are so good. if they are, how come none of them, not one beat out guys like Miller, eaves, cleary, Emmerton, Mursak, etc....? They were all in shape-already played 30 games or so. yet not one was able to beat any of those guys out? Not one of the guys I mentioned is signed to a big money long term contract. Most are FA's restricted or free after the year. yet, none lost their jobs. If tatar, nyquist, andersson etc are so good, then shouldn't have at least one of them won a job from that group of very limited players?

They weren't given an opportunity. The Red Wings believe that it is better for their development to play more on top lines for the Griffs than have limited roles with the Wings.

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You clearly have me confussed with someone else. I am not nor have ever been a Wild fan, nor has anyone ever accussed me of being one.

The point I was making and stand by, AHL points mean nothing in regards to predicting NHL performence. This is true in every sport, it just isn't the same.

I do have a question for those that believe these guys are so good. if they are, how come none of them, not one beat out guys like Miller, eaves, cleary, Emmerton, Mursak, etc....? They were all in shape-already played 30 games or so. yet not one was able to beat any of those guys out? Not one of the guys I mentioned is signed to a big money long term contract. Most are FA's restricted or free after the year. yet, none lost their jobs. If tatar, nyquist, andersson etc are so good, then shouldn't have at least one of them won a job from that group of very limited players?

You ARE that Wild fan. I would be too embarrassed to admit it too. Have fun being burdened with those 2 stupid contracts, like forever.

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A) Can someone help me out here? Wasn't there a troll here with almost he same name that annoyed us to no end back before the July 2012 signing bonanza?

B) How exactly is your argument any different for these guys than it is for other NHL prospects? You can make the same argument for any prospect who fails to crack the NHL in his draft year. Datsyuk didn't play in the NHL as an 18 year old, so surely he wasn't anything special, right? Or are you just an ass? (Pro tip: the correct answer is the latter)

He is that troll.

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It almost seems like Tatar got better playing in Grand Rapids, and is now more NHL ready then before? No, that would mean Holland knows what he is doing.

Only took him 5 years.

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You ARE that Wild fan. I would be too embarrassed to admit it too. Have fun being burdened with those 2 stupid contracts, like forever.

Nope, you are wrong. I remember who you guys are talking about, but wasn't me. I have been a very loyal wings fan since 197.........something....... had a major party in HS when we drafted Yzerman, Kocur, and Probert in 83......

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Here is my point about tatar nyquist etc.... Untill they play everyday with the RW, we don't knpw what they can be. Now my opinion is, there is nothing special about any of those guys. As of today, we have a bunch of 4th line checkers and at best 35 point guys. Guys that can score 15 goals per year. Is that horrible? No. But it that the type of talent we need now? No. We have been losing 70 point guys and not replacing them.If you take the entire GR roster and move them up to detroit, sprinkle in the 7 or 8 keepers on our team now, what do we have? a 30 win team.

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Here is my point about tatar nyquist etc.... Untill they play everyday with the RW, we don't knpw what they can be. Now my opinion is, there is nothing special about any of those guys. As of today, we have a bunch of 4th line checkers and at best 35 point guys. Guys that can score 15 goals per year. Is that horrible? No. But it that the type of talent we need now? No. We have been losing 70 point guys and not replacing them.If you take the entire GR roster and move them up to detroit, sprinkle in the 7 or 8 keepers on our team now, what do we have? a 30 win team.

Replace 2/3rds of any team with their AHL players and few teams would do any better. Most rankings say we have a good group of prospects. I'll trust that over you.

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Replace 2/3rds of any team with their AHL players and few teams would do any better. Most rankings say we have a good group of prospects. I'll trust that over you.

We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in cap era. But stars? Nope.

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We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in cap era. But stars? Nope.

The only forwards that the Wings have that are better or as good as Nyquist and Tatar are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Brunner. Unfortunately they are all small finesse guys who are best at playing on the top 2 lines and with a bigger body on their line

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The only forwards that the Wings have that are better or as good as Nyquist and Tatar are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Brunner. Unfortunately they are all small finesse guys who are best at playing on the top 2 lines and with a bigger body on their line

The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

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The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

That's what most said about Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That they are nowhere near as good as Yzerman and Fedorov and never will be and that the big problem is that we have no replacements.

Nyquist and Tats are going to be star NHLers, It's not likely they will be as good as Datsyuk and Zetterberg but we have a lot more talent in our system now, then we ever have as long as I have been a Wing fan (more than 30 yrs) to work with them.

And I don't know why you go on with this charade pretending to be a Wings fan when you are truly a Wild fan. You did this last time until someone found you on the Minnesota boards and then you showed your true colors. Exuberant in the Wings failed attempt and Wild's success at signing Suter and Parise . I think it might be the biggest mistake they ever made.

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The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

Z is trending downwards? Silly me, I thought he was 3rd in the league in scoring with 18 points in 12 games... or 1.5ppg. I must have mistaken him for someone else. I also thought dats was over a ppg with 13 points in 12 games, must be wrong there too...

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We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in cap era. But stars? Nope.

Not sure how this turned in to a debate on whether we have any stars in the pipeline or not. I'd agree that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars (meaning Pav/Hank level), and most likely our other prospects won't either. Jarnkrok, Athanasiou, and Tvrdon look like they might have a shot, albeit a long one.

However, there's a fairly large gap between star and 35-point at best filler. Nyquist and Tatar are similar in age to Filppula when he was in GR, and produce at a similar rate. Both are a bit smaller, but they're not all that small. They skate well, play well defensively, and always seem to work hard. Seems to me they can be just as good as Flip in a few years.

Stars we'll probably have to get the way most teams do: Be bad enough to get a top five pick. The good news is those guys don't usually take ~5 years to jump to the NHL. All goes well and we could have a next generation star or two coming in at the same time our next generation 2nd-tier players are coming in or hitting their peak. Add a good UFA or three and we could be primed for another decade of contention after just a couple year gap.

I don't understand why people think it's such a tragedy. It's how the game is supposed to work. It's not like the prospects we have now are the only ones we're ever going to get, and we have to replace our whole team with them. The worse we get, the better the future prospects get (provided we draft well). There's always the chance that we won't draft well, even if we fall to the basement. Or that we won't fall quite far enough to get the star prospects and we end up in a mediocrity trap. But making huge commitments to 28-yo UFAs, or packaging up prospects and players for trades is no guarantee either. Even tanking deliberately by selling off our top players now only improves our odds of picking some winners.

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Not sure how this turned in to a debate on whether we have any stars in the pipeline or not. I'd agree that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars (meaning Pav/Hank level), and most likely our other prospects won't either. Jarnkrok, Athanasiou, and Tvrdon look like they might have a shot, albeit a long one.

However, there's a fairly large gap between star and 35-point at best filler. Nyquist and Tatar are similar in age to Filppula when he was in GR, and produce at a similar rate. Both are a bit smaller, but they're not all that small. They skate well, play well defensively, and always seem to work hard. Seems to me they can be just as good as Flip in a few years.

Stars we'll probably have to get the way most teams do: Be bad enough to get a top five pick. The good news is those guys don't usually take ~5 years to jump to the NHL. All goes well and we could have a next generation star or two coming in at the same time our next generation 2nd-tier players are coming in or hitting their peak. Add a good UFA or three and we could be primed for another decade of contention after just a couple year gap.

I don't understand why people think it's such a tragedy. It's how the game is supposed to work. It's not like the prospects we have now are the only ones we're ever going to get, and we have to replace our whole team with them. The worse we get, the better the future prospects get (provided we draft well). There's always the chance that we won't draft well, even if we fall to the basement. Or that we won't fall quite far enough to get the star prospects and we end up in a mediocrity trap. But making huge commitments to 28-yo UFAs, or packaging up prospects and players for trades is no guarantee either. Even tanking deliberately by selling off our top players now only improves our odds of picking some winners.

What do you base stating that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars on?

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What do you base stating that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars on?

Watching them. When Pav and Hank were first coming up, they stood out from the start, as most future stars do. So far, neither of those two have. Neither is big or fast enough to dominate anyone physically, and the skill they've shown so far isn't particularly great. They're old enough that a big leap in development is unlikely.

Of course, either could still surprise me, but I expect they'll turn out to be 2nd-tier players like Flip or Hudler.

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Watching them. When Pav and Hank were first coming up, they stood out from the start, as most future stars do. So far, neither of those two have. Neither is big or fast enough to dominate anyone physically, and the skill they've shown so far isn't particularly great. They're old enough that a big leap in development is unlikely.

Of course, either could still surprise me, but I expect they'll turn out to be 2nd-tier players like Flip or Hudler.

Nyquist and Tatar really haven't had the opportunity to show what they got with the Wings whereas Datsyuk and Zetterberg were regulars in their rookie years playing every game with more ice-time. I have watched Nyquist and Tatar a lot in Grand Rapids. I don't think they will be top 10 players in the world like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. And Filppula and Hudler are good comparisons except I woudn't consider them 2nd tier players. I think both would be much more highly regarded if they didn't have Datsyuk and Zetterberg ahead of them. I think Hudler is going to prove a lot of people here wrong about him and Babcock too

Edited by Johnz96

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I never saw Hudler being lazy. He was small and slow but still provided 20 goals and 50 points. To me that's very good secondary scoring. He knew he was going to get more money elsewhere and money's something many people in the world like so who can blame him. Hudler's efforts in 2nd and 3rd lines were very important during the fine seasons of 07-08 and 08-09. I wish people would give him more respect for that. But always the hooker and Russia things. It's like all the other hockey playesr were eunuchs who've promised poverty.

I also think it's too early to tell what'll become of Tatar and Nyquist. I wish Nyquist would get stronger. Then we'd probably see him up too perhaps permanently.

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I never saw Hudler being lazy. He was small and slow but still provided 20 goals and 50 points. To me that's very good secondary scoring. He knew he was going to get more money elsewhere and money's something many people in the world like so who can blame him. Hudler's efforts in 2nd and 3rd lines were very important during the fine seasons of 07-08 and 08-09. I wish people would give him more respect for that. But always the hooker and Russia things. It's like all the other hockey playesr were eunuchs who've promised poverty.

I also think it's too early to tell what'll become of Tatar and Nyquist. I wish Nyquist would get stronger. Then we'd probably see him up too perhaps permanently.

I think he left more for an opportunity to prove he is as good as he thinks he is rather than for the money.

Edited by Johnz96

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That's what most said about Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That they are nowhere near as good as Yzerman and Fedorov and never will be and that the big problem is that we have no replacements.

Nyquist and Tats are going to be star NHLers, It's not likely they will be as good as Datsyuk and Zetterberg but we have a lot more talent in our system now, then we ever have as long as I have been a Wing fan (more than 30 yrs) to work with them.

And I don't know why you go on with this charade pretending to be a Wings fan when you are truly a Wild fan. You did this last time until someone found you on the Minnesota boards and then you showed your true colors. Exuberant in the Wings failed attempt and Wild's success at signing Suter and Parise . I think it might be the biggest mistake they ever made.

wasn't me. to the best of my knowledge I have never been to any other hockey teams forums. not my thing. I don't even go to other teams sites to talk trash. Not my style and honestly who cares about other teams? I don't.

Now let's talk about when Z and Dat started. Together they played a combined..... 0 games in the minors. They came over and earned starting (3rd line) jobs right off of the bat, on a team that was loaded with talent. That is a big difference than now. Now wea re talking about guys in the 3rd, 4th 5th years in the minors, and team with depleted talent, and they can't win a job.

It seems like very couple of years we get the company line about some young stud "that we are sure is going to be a star, hate to send down, hope he clears waivers" etc.... Then we lose them. How many become stars? Rittola? Nope. Kopescky? Nope. (Yes I am sure I misspelled their names, no offense meant, just to lazy and at work).

15-20 years ago we had lightening strike. Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Z, Dat, and Homer were far better than anyone thought they were going to be. Great job by our team. But back then, very few other teams were scouting europe as much as we where. Now everyone does. There just are not many hidden gems to be found. If those gems are found, everyone learns about them quickly.

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BTW, I think the guy you all are remembering is centourcougar07. He joined mid april-I joined begining of may. He is from minny, lives in minny, has a pic of the wilds arena in his profile, and made his last post at the end of july. He was all about showing the wild some love.

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wasn't me. to the best of my knowledge I have never been to any other hockey teams forums. not my thing. I don't even go to other teams sites to talk trash. Not my style and honestly who cares about other teams? I don't.

Now let's talk about when Z and Dat started. Together they played a combined..... 0 games in the minors. They came over and earned starting (3rd line) jobs right off of the bat, on a team that was loaded with talent. That is a big difference than now. Now wea re talking about guys in the 3rd, 4th 5th years in the minors, and team with depleted talent, and they can't win a job.

It seems like very couple of years we get the company line about some young stud "that we are sure is going to be a star, hate to send down, hope he clears waivers" etc.... Then we lose them. How many become stars? Rittola? Nope. Kopescky? Nope. (Yes I am sure I misspelled their names, no offense meant, just to lazy and at work).

15-20 years ago we had lightening strike. Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Z, Dat, and Homer were far better than anyone thought they were going to be. Great job by our team. But back then, very few other teams were scouting europe as much as we where. Now everyone does. There just are not many hidden gems to be found. If those gems are found, everyone learns about them quickly.

While saying that Hank & Dats played 0 games in the minors i.e. the AHL is technically correct, it's a little misleading. While neither were brought over to play in the AHL, it's not like they went from being drafted to stepping into the lineup, which is how you kind of present it. Hank played for 4 seasons in Sweden between being drafted & making the Wings and Pavs spend 3 seasons in Russia. So "earning starting jobs right off the bat" really means "earning jobs after 4 & 3 years respectively maturing in a league considered inferior to the NHL product (just not the AHL) & then given a job after a full training camp prior to the season." Tatar btw is in his 3rd AHL season, didn't have a training camp this year to show the coaching staff that he was ready, & should make the team next year at a slight younger age than Hank & Pavs did.

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