143 replies to this topic

[Johnz96]

We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in  cap era. But stars? Nope.

The only forwards that the Wings have that are better or as good as Nyquist and Tatar are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Brunner. Unfortunately they are all small finesse guys who are best at playing on the top 2 lines and with a bigger body on their line

[Richdg]

The only forwards that the Wings have that are better or as good as Nyquist and Tatar are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and Brunner. Unfortunately they are all small finesse guys who are best at playing on the top 2 lines and with a bigger body on their line

The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

I'm so glad you can see 3-4 years in the future. We have no one after Dats and Z are done. Better call it a day.

[Johnz96]

The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

That's what most said about Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That they are nowhere near as good as Yzerman and Fedorov and never will be and that the big problem is that we have no replacements.

Nyquist and Tats are going to be star NHLers, It's not likely they will be as good as Datsyuk and Zetterberg but we have a lot more talent in our system now, then we ever have as long as I have been a Wing fan (more than 30 yrs) to work with them.

And I don't know why you go on with this charade pretending to be a Wings fan when you are truly a Wild fan. You did this last time until someone found you on the Minnesota boards and then you showed your true colors. Exuberant in the Wings failed attempt and Wild's success at signing Suter and Parise . I think it might be the biggest mistake they ever made.

[Euro_Twins]

The was one loaded statement. Yes they may be some of our better offensive prospects, but that speaks to our overall lack of top end talent. Nyquist and tatar are no where near as good at D, Z, and Fil. Never will be, but then again few were/are. But the problem is those 3 Dar and Z specificly are trending down and much closer to the end of their careers than the begining. The big problem is, we as of today have no replacements.

 

Z is trending downwards? Silly me, I thought he was 3rd in the league in scoring with 18 points in 12 games... or 1.5ppg. I must have mistaken him for someone else. I also thought dats was over a ppg with 13 points in 12 games, must be wrong there too...

[13dangledangle]

He's not lazy

Not in a hut tub fulled with prostitutes he's not...but during a game?!    Please....

[Buppy]

We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in  cap era. But stars? Nope.

 

Not sure how this turned in to a debate on whether we have any stars in the pipeline or not. I'd agree that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars (meaning Pav/Hank level), and most likely our other prospects won't either. Jarnkrok, Athanasiou, and Tvrdon look like they might have a shot, albeit a long one.

 

However, there's a fairly large gap between star and 35-point at best filler. Nyquist and Tatar are similar in age to Filppula when he was in GR, and produce at a similar rate. Both are a bit smaller, but they're not all that small. They skate well, play well defensively, and always seem to work hard. Seems to me they can be just as good as Flip in a few years.

 

Stars we'll probably have to get the way most teams do: Be bad enough to get a top five pick. The good news is those guys don't usually take ~5 years to jump to the NHL. All goes well and we could have a next generation star or two coming in at the same time our next generation 2nd-tier players are coming in or hitting their peak. Add a good UFA or three and we could be primed for another decade of contention after just a couple year gap.

 

I don't understand why people think it's such a tragedy. It's how the game is supposed to work. It's not like the prospects we have now are the only ones we're ever going to get, and we have to replace our whole team with them. The worse we get, the better the future prospects get (provided we draft well). There's always the chance that we won't draft well, even if we fall to the basement. Or that we won't fall quite far enough to get the star prospects and we end up in a mediocrity trap. But making huge commitments to 28-yo UFAs, or packaging up prospects and players for trades is no guarantee either. Even tanking deliberately by selling off our top players now only improves our odds of picking some winners.

[Johnz96]

Not sure how this turned in to a debate on whether we have any stars in the pipeline or not. I'd agree that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars (meaning Pav/Hank level), and most likely our other prospects won't either. Jarnkrok, Athanasiou, and Tvrdon look like they might have a shot, albeit a long one.

 

However, there's a fairly large gap between star and 35-point at best filler. Nyquist and Tatar are similar in age to Filppula when he was in GR, and produce at a similar rate. Both are a bit smaller, but they're not all that small. They skate well, play well defensively, and always seem to work hard. Seems to me they can be just as good as Flip in a few years.

 

Stars we'll probably have to get the way most teams do: Be bad enough to get a top five pick. The good news is those guys don't usually take ~5 years to jump to the NHL. All goes well and we could have a next generation star or two coming in at the same time our next generation 2nd-tier players are coming in or hitting their peak. Add a good UFA or three and we could be primed for another decade of contention after just a couple year gap.

 

I don't understand why people think it's such a tragedy. It's how the game is supposed to work. It's not like the prospects we have now are the only ones we're ever going to get, and we have to replace our whole team with them. The worse we get, the better the future prospects get (provided we draft well). There's always the chance that we won't draft well, even if we fall to the basement. Or that we won't fall quite far enough to get the star prospects and we end up in a mediocrity trap. But making huge commitments to 28-yo UFAs, or packaging up prospects and players for trades is no guarantee either. Even tanking deliberately by selling off our top players now only improves our odds of picking some winners.

What do you base stating that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars on?

[Buppy]

What do you base stating that Nyquist and Tatar won't be stars on?

 

Watching them. When Pav and Hank were first coming up, they stood out from the start, as most future stars do. So far, neither of those two have. Neither is big or fast enough to dominate anyone physically, and the skill they've shown so far isn't particularly great. They're old enough that a big leap in development is unlikely.

 

Of course, either could still surprise me, but I expect they'll turn out to be 2nd-tier players like Flip or Hudler.

[Johnz96]

Watching them. When Pav and Hank were first coming up, they stood out from the start, as most future stars do. So far, neither of those two have. Neither is big or fast enough to dominate anyone physically, and the skill they've shown so far isn't particularly great. They're old enough that a big leap in development is unlikely.

 

Of course, either could still surprise me, but I expect they'll turn out to be 2nd-tier players like Flip or Hudler.

Nyquist and Tatar really haven't had the opportunity to show what they got with the Wings whereas Datsyuk and Zetterberg were regulars in their rookie years playing every game with more ice-time.  I have watched Nyquist and Tatar a lot in Grand Rapids. I don't think they will be top 10 players in the world like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. And Filppula and Hudler are good comparisons except I woudn't consider them 2nd tier players. I think both would be much more highly regarded if they didn't have Datsyuk and Zetterberg ahead of them. I think Hudler is going to prove a lot of people here wrong about him and Babcock too

Edited by Johnz96, 13 February 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[P. Marlowe]

I never saw Hudler being lazy. He was small and slow but still provided 20 goals and 50 points. To me that's very good secondary scoring. He knew he was going to get more money elsewhere and money's something many people in the world like so who can blame him. Hudler's efforts in 2nd and 3rd lines were very important during the fine seasons of 07-08 and 08-09. I wish people would give him more respect for that. But always the hooker and Russia things. It's like all the other hockey playesr were eunuchs who've promised poverty.

I also think it's too early to tell what'll become of Tatar and Nyquist. I wish Nyquist would get stronger. Then we'd probably see him up too perhaps permanently.

[Johnz96]

I never saw Hudler being lazy. He was small and slow but still provided 20 goals and 50 points. To me that's very good secondary scoring. He knew he was going to get more money elsewhere and money's something many people in the world like so who can blame him. Hudler's efforts in 2nd and 3rd lines were very important during the fine seasons of 07-08 and 08-09. I wish people would give him more respect for that. But always the hooker and Russia things. It's like all the other hockey playesr were eunuchs who've promised poverty.

I also think it's too early to tell what'll become of Tatar and Nyquist. I wish Nyquist would get stronger. Then we'd probably see him up too perhaps permanently.

I think he left more for an opportunity to prove he is as good as he thinks he is rather than for the money.

Edited by Johnz96, 13 February 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Richdg]

That's what most said about Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That they are nowhere near as good as Yzerman and Fedorov and never will be and that the big problem is that we have no replacements.

Nyquist and Tats are going to be star NHLers, It's not likely they will be as good as Datsyuk and Zetterberg but we have a lot more talent in our system now, then we ever have as long as I have been a Wing fan (more than 30 yrs) to work with them.

And I don't know why you go on with this charade pretending to be a Wings fan when you are truly a Wild fan. You did this last time until someone found you on the Minnesota boards and then you showed your true colors. Exuberant in the Wings failed attempt and Wild's success at signing Suter and Parise . I think it might be the biggest mistake they ever made.

wasn't me. to the best of my knowledge I have never been to any other hockey teams forums. not my thing. I don't even go to other teams sites to talk trash. Not my style and honestly who cares about other teams? I don't.

 

Now let's talk about when Z and Dat started. Together they played a combined..... 0 games in the minors. They came over and earned starting (3rd line) jobs right off of the bat, on a team that was loaded with talent. That is a big difference than now. Now wea re talking about guys in the 3rd, 4th 5th years in the minors, and team with depleted talent, and they can't win a job.

It seems like very couple of years we get the company line about some young stud "that we are sure is going to be a star, hate to send down, hope he clears waivers" etc.... Then we lose them. How many become stars? Rittola? Nope. Kopescky? Nope. (Yes I am sure I misspelled their names, no offense meant, just to lazy and at work).

 

15-20 years ago we had lightening strike. Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Z, Dat, and Homer were far better than anyone thought they were going to be. Great job by our team. But back then, very few other teams were scouting europe as much as we where. Now everyone does. There just are not many hidden gems to be found. If those gems are found, everyone learns about them quickly.

[Richdg]

BTW, I think the guy you all are remembering is centourcougar07. He joined mid april-I joined begining of may. He is from minny, lives in minny, has a pic of the wilds arena in his profile, and made his last post at the end of july. He was all about showing the wild some love.

[ogreslayer]

wasn't me. to the best of my knowledge I have never been to any other hockey teams forums. not my thing. I don't even go to other teams sites to talk trash. Not my style and honestly who cares about other teams? I don't.
 
Now let's talk about when Z and Dat started. Together they played a combined..... 0 games in the minors. They came over and earned starting (3rd line) jobs right off of the bat, on a team that was loaded with talent. That is a big difference than now. Now wea re talking about guys in the 3rd, 4th 5th years in the minors, and team with depleted talent, and they can't win a job.
It seems like very couple of years we get the company line about some young stud "that we are sure is going to be a star, hate to send down, hope he clears waivers" etc.... Then we lose them. How many become stars? Rittola? Nope. Kopescky? Nope. (Yes I am sure I misspelled their names, no offense meant, just to lazy and at work).
 
15-20 years ago we had lightening strike. Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Z, Dat, and Homer were far better than anyone thought they were going to be. Great job by our team. But back then, very few other teams were scouting europe as much as we where. Now everyone does. There just are not many hidden gems to be found. If those gems are found, everyone learns about them quickly.

While saying that Hank & Dats played 0 games in the minors i.e. the AHL is technically correct, it's a little misleading. While neither were brought over to play in the AHL, it's not like they went from being drafted to stepping into the lineup, which is how you kind of present it. Hank played for 4 seasons in Sweden between being drafted & making the Wings and Pavs spend 3 seasons in Russia. So "earning starting jobs right off the bat" really means "earning jobs after 4 & 3 years respectively maturing in a league considered inferior to the NHL product (just not the AHL) & then given a job after a full training camp prior to the season." Tatar btw is in his 3rd AHL season, didn't have a training camp this year to show the coaching staff that he was ready, & should make the team next year at a slight younger age than Hank & Pavs did.

[Richdg]

While saying that Hank & Dats played 0 games in the minors i.e. the AHL is technically correct, it's a little misleading. While neither were brought over to play in the AHL, it's not like they went from being drafted to stepping into the lineup, which is how you kind of present it. Hank played for 4 seasons in Sweden between being drafted & making the Wings and Pavs spend 3 seasons in Russia. So "earning starting jobs right off the bat" really means "earning jobs after 4 & 3 years respectively maturing in a league considered inferior to the NHL product (just not the AHL) & then given a job after a full training camp prior to the season." Tatar btw is in his 3rd AHL season, didn't have a training camp this year to show the coaching staff that he was ready, & should make the team next year at a slight younger age than Hank & Pavs did.

Most if not all of our euro players play in the no contact pro leagues in europe before they come over. Then they play in Toledo and/or GR. Z and dat where/are different cats than the rest of these guys. Always have been and always will be.

But back to the point, none of our guys at Tol/GR are future stars. A 40 point guy isn't terrible. It is however a terrible thing for your team when 75+ point guys are getting replaced by 40 point guys. That is the problem.

[Richdg]

Z is trending downwards? Silly me, I thought he was 3rd in the league in scoring with 18 points in 12 games... or 1.5ppg. I must have mistaken him for someone else. I also thought dats was over a ppg with 13 points in 12 games, must be wrong there too...

Yes. His career highs were 5 years ago. Been dropping ever since. Same with datsyuk,.

In 07/08 Z had 92 points. Since then: 73, 70, 80, 69 in order. As for datsyuk: in 07/08 and 08/08 he had 97 points. Since then: 70, 59, 67. Got plot it. Those are strong negative slopes. Yes both guys have gooten off to a great start. They were in shape and ready to go. This short season should help them. But let's see if the trends continue after the year is done. I would bet it does. Players don't get better as they get older-baring the use of PED's.......

[number9]

Can't wait for this summers NHL.com headline: Wings Hungry For Tatars

[Buppy]

Most if not all of our euro players play in the no contact pro leagues in europe before they come over. Then they play in Toledo and/or GR. Z and dat where/are different cats than the rest of these guys. Always have been and always will be.

But back to the point, none of our guys at Tol/GR are future stars. A 40 point guy isn't terrible. It is however a terrible thing for your team when 75+ point guys are getting replaced by 40 point guys. That is the problem.

 

Not actually happening, but whatever.

[T.Low]

You ARE that Wild fan. I would be too embarrassed to admit it too. Have fun being burdened with those 2 stupid contracts, like forEVer.