143 replies to this topic

[Euro_Twins]

Yes. His career highs were 5 years ago. Been dropping ever since. Same with datsyuk,.

In 07/08 Z had 92 points. Since then: 73, 70, 80, 69 in order. As for datsyuk: in 07/08 and 08/08 he had 97 points. Since then: 70, 59, 67. Got plot it. Those are strong negative slopes. Yes both guys have gooten off to a great start. They were in shape and ready to go. This short season should help them. But let's see if the trends continue after the year is done. I would bet it does. Players don't get better as they get older-baring the use of PED's.......

 

Keep convincing yourself that Z and dats are only doing good because they were playing before the lockout ended lol...  Have fun watching Suter piss away 98 million dollars of your capspace over the next 14 years lol

[ogreslayer]

Most if not all of our euro players play in the no contact pro leagues in europe before they come over. Then they play in Toledo and/or GR. Z and dat where/are different cats than the rest of these guys. Always have been and always will be.
But back to the point, none of our guys at Tol/GR are future stars. A 40 point guy isn't terrible. It is however a terrible thing for your team when 75+ point guys are getting replaced by 40 point guys. That is the problem.

FYI, the Wings do have another forward on the roster that came straight to the Wings from overseas without going through GR after being drafted. Note "being drafted" so no, I'm not talking about Brunner. Also, 2 of the prospects mentioned below are expected to do the same thing.

The idea that the Wings leave most or all Euro prospects in Europe first before bringing them to North America is as much a myth now as the ones going around about the Wings only drafting Europeans & drafting small. If you go through the current list of European born prospects, 7 are either in or spent time in a Euro league after they were drafted (Calle Jarnkrok, Teemu Pulkkinen, Mattias Backman, Alexei Marchenko, & Rasmus Bodin who are in Europe now and Joakim Andersson & Adam Almquist who are in Det/GR) & the other 6 (Being Nyquist, Mrazek, Tatar, Jurco, Frk, & Tvrdon) were already in North America or came over immediately after being drafted.

But back to Tatar. In his 3 years of development (all in GR btw) after being drafted at the age of 18, he's averaged .69 points a game & that includes his stints in Detroit. If you take out his games with the big club & just look at his scoring pace in a "minor league", it bumps to .72 a game, which is what Datsyuk put up in his 3 years in the RSL after being drafted by the Wings. Also consider that Tatar is doing that over a longer season & against theoretically tougher competition. Zetterberg btw put up .82 a game in Sweden before coming over to Detroit.

If you really just want to compare Tatar to Hudler though, Huds put up .97 points a game in GR compared to Tatar's .72. The difference though, which is what will ultimately separate Tatar from those Hudler comparisions, is that Tatar isn't as one dimensional as Huds. He can skate, plays with energy, can forecheck effectively, isn't afraid to muck it up in the corners, and actually plays defense. He's got enough upside where I think he should be considered Tatar 1.0, not Hudler 2.0. Completely different players.

[T.Low]

IT's hard to predict the future.  Living across the border from Vancouver for the last 15 years, I've watched the same scenario unfold on the Canucks

 

With Bertuzzi, Morrison, and Naslund as the awesome league leading top line, and the Sedins in a great second line situation, NOBODY (but Burke) thought the Sedins would ever be able to carry the mail as the top line, then low and behold, they take the league by storm and win back to back Hart's and take the team to the Gm 7 Cup Finals.

 

We thought we were done without Stevie Y and Feds, but then Datsuk and Zetterberg became league leaders and we won in '08. 

 

As posted above, we've lost all our previous competitive advantages.  Long ago we got high picks and took Yzerman.  Were the first to scout and bring in talent from Russia , then Sweden, etc.  Were the first to play Russian style puck possession hocky.  Could easily out bid for free agents.  Now, the salary cap and the natural business cycle have taken those advantages away.  (Many teams are copying the Detroit method, with higher picks and the same salary) 

 

Not to menton the unthinkable: Mike Illitch himself is not getting any younger.

 

It does appear that as Datsyuk and Zetterberg age, there really is a lack of hopefuls to pass the torch to...all we can do is watch and hope that the guys in the pipeline are able to step up and fulfill their roles as Red Wings and earn a place in history.

[ogreslayer]

IT's hard to predict the future.  Living across the border from Vancouver for the last 15 years, I've watched the same scenario unfold on the Canucks
 
With Bertuzzi, Morrison, and Naslund as the awesome league leading top line, and the Sedins in a great second line situation, NOBODY (but Burke) thought the Sedins would ever be able to carry the mail as the top line, then low and behold, they take the league by storm and win back to back Hart's and take the team to the Gm 7 Cup Finals.
 
We thought we were done without Stevie Y and Feds, but then Datsuk and Zetterberg became league leaders and we won in '08. 
 
As posted above, we've lost all our previous competitive advantages.  Long ago we got high picks and took Yzerman.  Were the first to scout and bring in talent from Russia , then Sweden, etc.  Were the first to play Russian style puck possession hocky.  Could easily out bid for free agents.  Now, the salary cap and the natural business cycle have taken those advantages away.  (Many teams are copying the Detroit method, with higher picks and the same salary) 
 
Not to menton the unthinkable: Mike Illitch himself is not getting any younger.
 
It does appear that as Datsyuk and Zetterberg age, there really is a lack of hopefuls to pass the torch to...all we can do is watch and hope that the guys in the pipeline are able to step up and fulfill their roles as Red Wings and earn a place in history.

I agree with you on all of this except the last piece really. The bottom line is that nobody can say for certain that the Wings don't have someone in the pipeline that can be the next standard bearer. To say that "we" collectively knew that Hank & Pavs were going to turn into what they did while developing over in Sweden & Russia respectively, or during their first couple of seasons in the NHL is complete revisionist history at this point. Who's to say that in 15+ years from now we're not all bemoaning the fact that the Wings don't have their next Calle Jarnkrok in the pipeline to carry on the Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterberg legacy of leaders?

[paulb1320]

Here is my point about tatar nyquist etc.... Untill they play everyday with the RW, we don't knpw what they can be. Now my opinion is, there is nothing special about any of those guys. As of today, we have a bunch of 4th line checkers and at best 35 point guys. Guys that can score 15 goals per year. Is that horrible? No. But it that the type of talent we need now? No. We have been losing 70 point guys and not replacing them.If you take the entire GR roster and move them up to detroit, sprinkle in the 7 or 8 keepers on our team now, what do we have? a 30 win team.

 

Why is everyone getting so worked up about some random armchair scout's opinion? If he (foolishly) thinks they'll amount to nothing more than 35 point guys than so be it, that's his opinion, and judging by his posts he's stubborn as a mule (and most likely a troll) so why waste time trying to change his opinion.

 

If Hakan Andersson see's these guys projecting to be legit top 6ers I'm going to take his word for it rather than some random troll, who (IMO) has no scouting/talent assessment ability whatsoever.

 

Also, as a long time lurker/reader, is there any way to ignore a poster entirely? So that I don't even see his posts, like on HF where there is an ignore list type deal.

Edited by paulb1320, 11 February 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[StormJH1]

IT's hard to predict the future.  Living across the border from Vancouver for the last 15 years, I've watched the same scenario unfold on the Canucks

 

With Bertuzzi, Morrison, and Naslund as the awesome league leading top line, and the Sedins in a great second line situation, NOBODY (but Burke) thought the Sedins would ever be able to carry the mail as the top line, then low and behold, they take the league by storm and win back to back Hart's and take the team to the Gm 7 Cup Finals.

 

We thought we were done without Stevie Y and Feds, but then Datsuk and Zetterberg became league leaders and we won in '08. 

 

As posted above, we've lost all our previous competitive advantages.  Long ago we got high picks and took Yzerman.  Were the first to scout and bring in talent from Russia , then Sweden, etc.  Were the first to play Russian style puck possession hocky.  Could easily out bid for free agents.  Now, the salary cap and the natural business cycle have taken those advantages away.  (Many teams are copying the Detroit method, with higher picks and the same salary) 

 

Not to menton the unthinkable: Mike Illitch himself is not getting any younger.

 

It does appear that as Datsyuk and Zetterberg age, there really is a lack of hopefuls to pass the torch to...all we can do is watch and hope that the guys in the pipeline are able to step up and fulfill their roles as Red Wings and earn a place in history.

 

This is a great synopsis.  I try to remind people of that when they get overly down on the organization every time we lose a free agent they assumed we would sign.  They seem to forget that Original Six or not, we are still 1/30 of a league where you can't just buy your way out of problems with impunity.

 

I have to say, though, that even though I'm still worried about the team as presently constituted for THIS year, some of these young players that I had basically written off are starting to make me wonder if they aren't legitimate long-term NHL'ers.  Brunner is older, and his success isn't completely unexpected, but if he had been an established NHL'er signed as a UFA last year, what would his cap hit value be?  $3.5 million?  $5 million?  It seems crazy until you look at what people making that amount actually produce - and we got this guy as a low-cost tryout for basically nothing. Crap, he's better than Semin right now, and Semin got $6 million (and is a team cancer).

 

But Andersson looks like he could be a legit power forward in this league if he figured a few things out.  Tatar isn't lighting the world on fire, but he has a much more balanced game than someone like Hudler ever did, and there are flashes of skill.  Heck, even Cory Emmerton is suddenly making some things happen.  And Jakub Kindl was getting ready for "bust" status if he didn't have it already, yet he's looked better to me in recent games.  

 

What people don't understand is that the league is organized to turn teams like the Red Wings into teams like the Calgary Flames, until they give in an agree to bottom out for a few years.  And the Wings simply refuse to do it.  It's not too far out of the realm of possibility that we could be seeing the makings of an assortment of role players and maybe a few Top 6 forwards here, which, combined with a lucky "Parise"-type impact signing, could take us to the next level even as the Euro Twins start to wind down.

[beachwing]

Players games will evolve...minor league hockey shows your talents which gets you the call up. Nobody knows what will happen when kids get the chance to play on a NHL line.

Hell, Maltby as we all know, was a scorer then found his way to stay up by being a grinder. Homer changed the way the game is played , no scout scooped him up for his ability to screen and deflect but he found his niche.

We have stars in GR and TOL but noone really knows who it will be...Time will tell!

[Richdg]

Keep convincing yourself that Z and dats are only doing good because they were playing before the lockout ended lol...  Have fun watching Suter piss away 98 million dollars of your capspace over the next 14 years lol

LOL, I just proved you wrong about who I am. If you go back to summertime, I was against signing parise because of his contract and didn't think he is/was worth it. I was all for signing Suter.

Some of you are kinda like sheep. One person says something and everyone falls in line and believes it. As for losing high end players, yes. Shanahan, Federov, Yzerman, Hossa, Nick, etc... have all left over the last few years and none of thme have been replaced. Z and Dat where already on the team. Not to mention the best grind line of the past 20 years. There have been zero replacements that are equal in value.

Looking at what is coming over the next 24 months, this trend isn't going to change-IMHO. If it does and someone proves me wrong, GREAT! But you don't take high end players off of a team, replace them with journeymen and win Cups. Which in the end is what we all want.

[Richdg]

IT's hard to predict the future.  Living across the border from Vancouver for the last 15 years, I've watched the same scenario unfold on the Canucks

 

With Bertuzzi, Morrison, and Naslund as the awesome league leading top line, and the Sedins in a great second line situation, NOBODY (but Burke) thought the Sedins would ever be able to carry the mail as the top line, then low and behold, they take the league by storm and win back to back Hart's and take the team to the Gm 7 Cup Finals.

 

We thought we were done without Stevie Y and Feds, but then Datsuk and Zetterberg became league leaders and we won in '08. 

 

As posted above, we've lost all our previous competitive advantages.  Long ago we got high picks and took Yzerman.  Were the first to scout and bring in talent from Russia , then Sweden, etc.  Were the first to play Russian style puck possession hocky.  Could easily out bid for free agents.  Now, the salary cap and the natural business cycle have taken those advantages away.  (Many teams are copying the Detroit method, with higher picks and the same salary) 

 

Not to menton the unthinkable: Mike Illitch himself is not getting any younger.

 

It does appear that as Datsyuk and Zetterberg age, there really is a lack of hopefuls to pass the torch to...all we can do is watch and hope that the guys in the pipeline are able to step up and fulfill their roles as Red Wings and earn a place in history.

You bring up an interesting point or 2. But you also left out a couple of big ones. The Sedin twins were the 2nd and 3rd pick overall in the draft. They were supposed to be great, and are. To get picks that high, you have to have a really bad season. Also make a trade for the second pick, which Van. did. We kinda did the same thing 20 years ago. had a really bad season, thus a top pick-primeau, who we then turned into Shanahan via trade. 4 cups later..........

[Johnz96]

You bring up an interesting point or 2. But you also left out a couple of big ones. The Sedin twins were the 2nd and 3rd pick overall in the draft. They were supposed to be great, and are. To get picks that high, you have to have a really bad season. Also make a trade for the second pick, which Van. did. We kinda did the same thing 20 years ago. had a really bad season, thus a top pick-primeau, who we then turned into Shanahan via trade. 4 cups later..........

You can always make a trade with Toronto

[Richdg]

You can always make a trade with Toronto

Not following you here?

Trade what for what with Toronto?

[Richdg]

BTW if you read all of my posts, I know who has time....lol I am not someone who beleives all is lost. I have said from the begining that over the next couple of years we will stay in the 6th through 10th range in the WC. Our G situation is very good, once we resign Howard. We also have several good young Dmen. Lashoff-who didn't surprise me after watching him the past 2 years, Smith, E, Kindl-doing much better, and a couple of young guys Sproul, Oullett, and De Haas-don't sleep on him all coming along. It is our forwards that are the concern. We lack size, speed, skill, and strength. Most of our F prospects have 1 or 2 of the 4 skill sets. We need the future stars. This is not a big secret either. Holland has talked about it, so have babs, mickey and others.

[Buppy]

... As for losing high end players, yes. Shanahan, Federov, Yzerman, Hossa, Nick, etc... have all left over the last few years and none of thme have been replaced. Z and Dat where already on the team. Not to mention the best grind line of the past 20 years. There have been zero replacements that are equal in value.

Looking at what is coming over the next 24 months, this trend isn't going to change-IMHO. If it does and someone proves me wrong, GREAT! But you don't take high end players off of a team, replace them with journeymen and win Cups. Which in the end is what we all want.

 

We did pretty much exactly that in '08. We lost Fedorov, Shanny, Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille... Then we won a Cup.

 

We were fortunate that our next generation of leaders were already on the team, already learning and growing, before the last generation left. It allowed for a seamless transition.

 

We weren't so lucky with our defense. White is a poor replacement for Rafalski. Kronwall a poor Lidstrom. Quincey a poor Kronwall. E maybe an ok Stuart. Pretty far from seamless.

 

We'll have to wait and see how we do replacing Pav and Hank. Their replacements aren't on the team yet, obviously. Fortunately, Pav and Hank still are. Seems like you think they're already gone. We do have prospects with star potential. Maybe not currently in GR, but we do have them. More importantly, we have time. There will be another draft this summer. Could be we find a Giroux or Eberle in there. Or maybe we can move up in the draft. There will be UFAs this summer, might buy us some time. Or maybe one of our current prospects will emerge. You never know.

 

Still not really sure what this has to do with whether or not Tatar will be as good as or better than Hudler though.

[Johnz96]

Not following you here?

Trade what for what with Toronto?

It was just a joke referring to the 2 top 5 picks Boston got for Kessel.

[Richdg]

It was just a joke referring to the 2 top 5 picks Boston got for Kessel.

gotchya

We did pretty much exactly that in '08. We lost Fedorov, Shanny, Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille... Then we won a Cup.

 

We were fortunate that our next generation of leaders were already on the team, already learning and growing, before the last generation left. It allowed for a seamless transition.

 

We weren't so lucky with our defense. White is a poor replacement for Rafalski. Kronwall a poor Lidstrom. Quincey a poor Kronwall. E maybe an ok Stuart. Pretty far from seamless.

 

We'll have to wait and see how we do replacing Pav and Hank. Their replacements aren't on the team yet, obviously. Fortunately, Pav and Hank still are. Seems like you think they're already gone. We do have prospects with star potential. Maybe not currently in GR, but we do have them. More importantly, we have time. There will be another draft this summer. Could be we find a Giroux or Eberle in there. Or maybe we can move up in the draft. There will be UFAs this summer, might buy us some time. Or maybe one of our current prospects will emerge. You never know.

 

Still not really sure what this has to do with whether or not Tatar will be as good as or better than Hudler though.

All of which is true, and is something I have said we need to do. We can't stand pat with what we have and expect to stay in the PO hunt. Don't forget Datsyuk is a UFA next summer. He is 36 at that point and has talked about going home. If he leaves-and we get nothing, we are in a world of s***. If we trade him we get something back. But that is a jagged pill for kost to swallow, which I understand. But 25-30 win seasons are much worse.

[number9]

gotchya

All of which is true, and is something I have said we need to do. We can't stand pat with what we have and expect to stay in the PO hunt. Don't forget Datsyuk is a UFA next summer. He is 36 at that point and has talked about going home. If he leaves-and we get nothing, we are in a world of s***. If we trade him we get something back. But that is a jagged pill for kost to swallow, which I understand. But 25-30 win seasons are much worse.

 

Such a tired old rebuilders argument. Datsyuk said he wishes to end his career in Russia, not jump ship when he's 36. A player of his caliber, the best 2-way forward in the league, doesn't end his career at 36. An elite player like Datsyuk could likely play in the NHL past the age of 40 if he really wanted to, however it's clear he wants to do something along the same lines as what Fedorov did, play until 40 and then spend a couple years in Russia.

 

When asked about his clients comments Datsyuk's agent has made it very clear that Pavel feels an extreme sense of loyalty to Detroit. The team and the organization. It's highly doubtful that the classiest player in the NHL, who loves his team inside and out, and could very well have his number retired here, is going to ditch at 36. Everything written about the matter has said it's very doubtful he goes to Europe without signing at least 1 more contract with the Wings. IMO it's much more likely he signs for a discount price with us when the time comes. For crying out load Fedorov (one of the most popular players of all time in his home country) played in the league till the age of 40, and he had no such tie with any team in the later portion of his career like Datsyuk does.

 

And even if it was likely that he would leave at 36, we all know Holland still wouldn't trade him. We treat our loyal franchise players with loyalty in return. Disagree with it if you like, but it's not going to change how Illitch and Holland run things. If you don't like it root for a different team... Maybe try Minnesota.

 

There's about a 1% chance he leaves early, and even less of a chance that he gets traded. This is the real world/hockeytown, not NHL13. 

Edited by number9, 11 February 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[Buppy]

All of which is true, and is something I have said we need to do. We can't stand pat with what we have and expect to stay in the PO hunt. Don't forget Datsyuk is a UFA next summer. He is 36 at that point and has talked about going home. If he leaves-and we get nothing, we are in a world of s***. If we trade him we get something back. But that is a jagged pill for kost to swallow, which I understand. But 25-30 win seasons are much worse.

 

That's a false dilema. Datsyuk may or may not return after next season, but whether he retires as a Wing or we trade him beforehand isn't really that big a difference.

 

You're not going to trade him (or anyone else) for a younger version of himself. Someone who's already proven to be a star team-leader. No one will trade someone they know could lead their team for a decade for someone who could lead their team for a year and a half. All you'll get is someone, either pick or prospect, that you hope will develop into that leader. Basically you get one, maybe two if you're lucky, extra chances to pick a winner over what we'll get if he retires before we land a replacement. So all other things being equal, it's one or two extra down years. Even trading all our top players doesn't improve our future prospects all that much.

 

It's not a choice between "do this and we'll have another generation of success" or "don't do it and we'll have a generation of failure". It's "tank now to improve our chances of a successful rebuild" or "enjoy what success we have now, since we'll still have a chance for a successful rebuild later".

 

Right now, I'll take the latter. If it looks like we're out of the playoffs come deadline day maybe I'll change my mind.

[number9]

BTW if you read all of my posts, I know who has time....lol I am not someone who beleives all is lost. I have said from the begining that over the next couple of years we will stay in the 6th through 10th range in the WC. Our G situation is very good, once we resign Howard. We also have several good young Dmen. Lashoff-who didn't surprise me after watching him the past 2 years, Smith, E, Kindl-doing much better, and a couple of young guys Sproul, Oullett, and De Haas-don't sleep on him all coming along. It is our forwards that are the concern. We lack size, speed, skill, and strength. Most of our F prospects have 1 or 2 of the 4 skill sets. We need the future stars. This is not a big secret either. Holland has talked about it, so have babs, mickey and others.

 

Size: Sheahan, Jurco, Andersson, Tvrdon, Aubry, Bodin, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Speed: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Ferraro, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Bodin, Coetzee

 

Skill: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Frk, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Coetzee, Nestrasil

 

Strength: Sheahan, Andersson, Aubry, Bodin, Callahan, Hudon, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Looks pretty well rounded to me. Add Mursak to the speed and maybe the skill as well.

[Richdg]

Size: Sheahan, Jurco, Andersson, Tvrdon, Aubry, Bodin, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Speed: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Ferraro, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Bodin, Coetzee

 

Skill: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Frk, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Coetzee, Nestrasil

 

Strength: Sheahan, Andersson, Aubry, Bodin, Callahan, Hudon, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Looks pretty well rounded to me. Add Mursak to the speed and maybe the skill as well.

Agian, you must not understand the english language much. Read what I wrote, then think about it, and then get back with me.

[Richdg]

That's a false dilema. Datsyuk may or may not return after next season, but whether he retires as a Wing or we trade him beforehand isn't really that big a difference.

 

You're not going to trade him (or anyone else) for a younger version of himself. Someone who's already proven to be a star team-leader. No one will trade someone they know could lead their team for a decade for someone who could lead their team for a year and a half. All you'll get is someone, either pick or prospect, that you hope will develop into that leader. Basically you get one, maybe two if you're lucky, extra chances to pick a winner over what we'll get if he retires before we land a replacement. So all other things being equal, it's one or two extra down years. Even trading all our top players doesn't improve our future prospects all that much.

 

It's not a choice between "do this and we'll have another generation of success" or "don't do it and we'll have a generation of failure". It's "tank now to improve our chances of a successful rebuild" or "enjoy what success we have now, since we'll still have a chance for a successful rebuild later".

 

Right now, I'll take the latter. If it looks like we're out of the playoffs come deadline day maybe I'll change my mind.

So let me understand. The last 3 years, with more talent we get sent home early. That is ok? if we couldn't win the SC or even get close with better teams, how is staying the same going to be better? Another 1 round exit is better than a couple of high end picks, or young up and coming players? When Datsyuk and Z walk, sometime over the next 2-5 years, we are done, baring a major change. can that happen solely by the draft? yes. Does our % improve with more draft picks? yes it does. Would it be better to move a proven vet that is still very veyr good and get some NHL ready guys now? yes. if we say moved datsyuk, you still have plenty of vets and leadership on the team to show the younger guys the way to play. if all the vets are gone, who does that?

I am not saying anything is easy, far from it. But this why GM's get paid millions of dollars per year.