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Tomas Tatar Is Jiri Hudler 2.0


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#101 Euro_Twins

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

So let me understand. The last 3 years, with more talent we get sent home early. That is ok? if we couldn't win the SC or even get close with better teams, how is staying the same going to be better? Another 1 round exit is better than a couple of high end picks, or young up and coming players? When Datsyuk and Z walk, sometime over the next 2-5 years, we are done, baring a major change. can that happen solely by the draft? yes. Does our % improve with more draft picks? yes it does. Would it be better to move a proven vet that is still very veyr good and get some NHL ready guys now? yes. if we say moved datsyuk, you still have plenty of vets and leadership on the team to show the younger guys the way to play. if all the vets are gone, who does that?

I am not saying anything is easy, far from it. But this why GM's get paid millions of dollars per year.

 

You sir are wrong, we have a new weapon come playoff time in Brunner, who likes to shoot, and is damn good at scoring. We have a young defense that is finally starting to click and is learning how to shut teams out. We have more grit then the last three years with tootoo. With Franzen playing the way he has thus far, I would not be surprised to see him play in the playoffs the way he did in 08'. This team is different in many ways then it was last year.



#102 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:26 AM

So let me understand. The last 3 years, with more talent we get sent home early. That is ok? if we couldn't win the SC or even get close with better teams, how is staying the same going to be better? Another 1 round exit is better than a couple of high end picks, or young up and coming players? When Datsyuk and Z walk, sometime over the next 2-5 years, we are done, baring a major change. can that happen solely by the draft? yes. Does our % improve with more draft picks? yes it does. Would it be better to move a proven vet that is still very veyr good and get some NHL ready guys now? yes. if we say moved datsyuk, you still have plenty of vets and leadership on the team to show the younger guys the way to play. if all the vets are gone, who does that?

I am not saying anything is easy, far from it. But this why GM's get paid millions of dollars per year.

 

 

Daigle, among others.

 

Agian, you must not understand the english language much. Read what I wrote, then think about it, and then get back with me.

 

You said we lack size, speed, skill, and strength in our F prospects. That statement was wrong. If you are referring to your statement about our prospects only having a few of each those skills (which I wasn't addressing) consider Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They're not known for their size or strength at all. Still elite though. Look at Hudler... Slow, small, and weak....but his skill alone allows him to be extremely succesful at a pro level.

For a so called Detroit fan, you have a very skewed view of our prospect pool....



#103 Buppy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:22 AM

So let me understand. The last 3 years, with more talent we get sent home early. That is ok? if we couldn't win the SC or even get close with better teams, how is staying the same going to be better? Another 1 round exit is better than a couple of high end picks, or young up and coming players? When Datsyuk and Z walk, sometime over the next 2-5 years, we are done, baring a major change. can that happen solely by the draft? yes. Does our % improve with more draft picks? yes it does. Would it be better to move a proven vet that is still very veyr good and get some NHL ready guys now? yes. if we say moved datsyuk, you still have plenty of vets and leadership on the team to show the younger guys the way to play. if all the vets are gone, who does that?

I am not saying anything is easy, far from it. But this why GM's get paid millions of dollars per year.

 

IF Pav and Hank walk in the next few years, we are not done. We will, in all likelihood, be a bad team. We would then get a high draft pick. Probably a few. Assuming we make good picks, we'll have our next generation stars.

 

Trade Pav now, you're not likely to get more than one high pick or top prospect. We will, in all likelihood, still be a bad team. The only difference is it happens a little sooner and we get one extra top pick/prospect, and probably an extra 2nd-tier player, to help the rebuild. At most it's one or two extra bad seasons. You act like losing Datsyuk for nothing would be the end of the world.

 

It's just not that big a difference.



#104 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:39 AM

IF Pav and Hank walk in the next few years, we are not done. We will, in all likelihood, be a bad team. We would then get a high draft pick. Probably a few. Assuming we make good picks, we'll have our next generation stars.

 

Trade Pav now, you're not likely to get more than one high pick or top prospect. We will, in all likelihood, still be a bad team. The only difference is it happens a little sooner and we get one extra top pick/prospect, and probably an extra 2nd-tier player, to help the rebuild. At most it's one or two extra bad seasons. You act like losing Datsyuk for nothing would be the end of the world.

 

It's just not that big a difference.

 

I'm guessing Rich would have traded Yzerman and Lidstrom in their waning years had he the power. It's typical, every time our greats get old, were done without Yzerman! Were done without Lidstrom! Were done without Datsyuk! And soon he's going to be saying were done once Jarnkrok leaves!

 

You don't build successful long-term organizations trading away elite players for unproven youth, no matter how highly touted. 



#105 Konnan511

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:26 AM

We have some good prospects, but they are still playing junior hockey. Sproul, Mckee, Quellet, etc...... They have some talent. Nyquist and tatar are really just fill. Now, you need some fillers in  cap era. But stars? Nope.

It's quotes like these that assure me you don't know anything about our prospects.

We have two guys in juniors that are battling it out for the CHL DMan award. We have an amazing Swedish DMan that is near the league leaders for DMan points. A Swedish forward that is making men look like boys all while being on a super craptastic team. One of the best up and coming DMen in the KHL.

That's not even considering a two time hobey baker finalist who is NLT down in the minors to keep our depth alive when it is darn apparent that depth is the key to success this year. Brunner and Tatar are showing they are NHL ready and doing a very fine job in their roles (don't straw man me and remind Brunner wasn't drafted by us).

On top of all that you can't spell XO's name or Jarnkrok's name correctly and you somehow throw McKee in the mix when talking about talented prospects. Just stop talking about Detroit prospects. Just stop.

Edited by Konnan511, 12 February 2013 - 02:27 AM.

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#106 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:47 AM

It's quotes like these that assure me you don't know anything about our prospects.

We have two guys in juniors that are battling it out for the CHL DMan award. We have an amazing Swedish DMan that is near the league leaders for DMan points. A Swedish forward that is making men look like boys all while being on a super craptastic team. One of the best up and coming DMen in the KHL.

That's not even considering a two time hobey baker finalist who is NLT down in the minors to keep our depth alive when it is darn apparent that depth is the key to success this year. Brunner and Tatar are showing they are NHL ready and doing a very fine job in their roles (don't straw man me and remind Brunner wasn't drafted by us).

On top of all that you can't spell XO's name or Jarnkrok's name correctly and you somehow throw McKee in the mix when talking about talented prospects. Just stop talking about Detroit prospects. Just stop.

 

Marchenko is rising and rising fast. We all thought he would, but I'm gald he's finally proving it. This league will revel in our drafting and development process yet again soon.

 

It amazes me when ppl on this forum (mostly not regulars) think we should sell or trade our vets and rebuild. The fact that we haven't done that has earned us a reputation that brings us guys like Brunner & Marchenko, while still being cup capable. Brunner chose us despite similar offers from many other teams. And Alexei chose us as one of the only NHL teams he'd be willing to play for. Reputation does matter.



#107 Euro_Twins

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

Marchenko is rising and rising fast. We all thought he would, but I'm gald he's finally proving it. This league will revel in our drafting and development process yet again soon.

 

It amazes me when ppl on this forum (mostly not regulars) think we should sell or trade our vets and rebuild. The fact that we haven't done that has earned us a reputation that brings us guys like Brunner & Marchenko, while still being cup capable. Brunner chose us despite similar offers from many other teams. And Alexei chose us as one of the only NHL teams he'd be willing to play for. Reputation does matter.

 

 

but... but... Parise, Suter...  :crybaby:



#108 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

but... but... Parise, Suter...  :crybaby:

 

Yeah both would be a semi-good replacement for Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Good thing we don't need a replacement thought HA. 



#109 cr00d

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

It's quotes like these that assure me you don't know anything about our prospects.

We have two guys in juniors that are battling it out for the CHL DMan award. We have an amazing Swedish DMan that is near the league leaders for DMan points. A Swedish forward that is making men look like boys all while being on a super craptastic team. One of the best up and coming DMen in the KHL.

That's not even considering a two time hobey baker finalist who is NLT down in the minors to keep our depth alive when it is darn apparent that depth is the key to success this year. Brunner and Tatar are showing they are NHL ready and doing a very fine job in their roles (don't straw man me and remind Brunner wasn't drafted by us).

On top of all that you can't spell XO's name or Jarnkrok's name correctly and you somehow throw McKee in the mix when talking about talented prospects. Just stop talking about Detroit prospects. Just stop.

 

Our 2011 Draft is looking amazing at this point, especially on D. Sproul is looking like the best defenseman in the entire CHL(wonder where he'd be if not for a broken arm at the start of the season). Ouellette looks like an extremely gifted player on both ends of the ice. Backman and Marchenko are both looking like late round steals, and even Nedomlel is rounding into a nice, more physical, Lilja type defenseman.

 

Jurco could end up being a stud, Quine has looked unstoppable since being traded to Belleville, and if Tvrdon could get healthy, he might be a force as well.

 

Very promising bunch.



#110 Richdg

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:46 PM

It's quotes like these that assure me you don't know anything about our prospects.

We have two guys in juniors that are battling it out for the CHL DMan award. We have an amazing Swedish DMan that is near the league leaders for DMan points. A Swedish forward that is making men look like boys all while being on a super craptastic team. One of the best up and coming DMen in the KHL.

That's not even considering a two time hobey baker finalist who is NLT down in the minors to keep our depth alive when it is darn apparent that depth is the key to success this year. Brunner and Tatar are showing they are NHL ready and doing a very fine job in their roles (don't straw man me and remind Brunner wasn't drafted by us).

On top of all that you can't spell XO's name or Jarnkrok's name correctly and you somehow throw McKee in the mix when talking about talented prospects. Just stop talking about Detroit prospects. Just stop.

ummm you just repeated and proved my point. Our best prospects ARE PLAYING JUNIOR HOCKEY RIGHT NOW! That is what I said. Our best are not tatar, nyquist, or the rest of the gang in GR. Those are very limited NHL guys. Some checkers and a few 35-40 point guys. That is all we have ready for the next 24 months. The problem with guys playing Junior hockey is, can they handle the next level. on that we don't know.



#111 Richdg

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

Size: Sheahan, Jurco, Andersson, Tvrdon, Aubry, Bodin, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Speed: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Ferraro, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Bodin, Coetzee

 

Skill: Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Frk, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Quine, Aubry, Coetzee, Nestrasil

 

Strength: Sheahan, Andersson, Aubry, Bodin, Callahan, Hudon, Nestrasil, Parkes, Raedeke

 

Looks pretty well rounded to me. Add Mursak to the speed and maybe the skill as well.

Do you ever watch hockey? i mean come on. But since you posted it...

Raedeke 22 goals in 159 AHL games. Skill? nope. Size? Under the NHL average. Speed? Average.

Sheahan-he is a checker. Abdelkader 2.0

Andersson-he is a checker, would have to improve to be equal to Abdelkader.

Aubry? Skill? really? What are you smoking. 6 goals in 100 AHL games. no speed either.

Nestrasil-can't even play with the griffins. has been demoted to Toledo. 5 points in 31 career AHL games will do that.

Nyquist-has he already been passed by tatar? he is 24 and hasn't done anything with the big club.

parkes-checker, again has to improve to even be equal to Abdelkader.

 

Most of the rest are still playing junior, which is where i said much of our talent is and no one has any idea on how they will turn out.



You sir are wrong, we have a new weapon come playoff time in Brunner, who likes to shoot, and is damn good at scoring. We have a young defense that is finally starting to click and is learning how to shut teams out. We have more grit then the last three years with tootoo. With Franzen playing the way he has thus far, I would not be surprised to see him play in the playoffs the way he did in 08'. This team is different in many ways then it was last year.

I will take that bet. TBH, i hope your right, but I know you are not. Of course any trades made can and will chnage that opinion. As of today, this team losses in the 1st round if we make it in at all.


Edited by Richdg, 12 February 2013 - 02:05 PM.


#112 cupforwings

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:18 PM

Marchenko is rising and rising fast. We all thought he would, but I'm gald he's finally proving it. This league will revel in our drafting and development process yet again soon.

 

It amazes me when ppl on this forum (mostly not regulars) think we should sell or trade our vets and rebuild. The fact that we haven't done that has earned us a reputation that brings us guys like Brunner & Marchenko, while still being cup capable. Brunner chose us despite similar offers from many other teams. And Alexei chose us as one of the only NHL teams he'd be willing to play for. Reputation does matter.

Wo is this Marchenko guy?  I have never heard of him.  And what does he have to do with the wings?  Thanks in advance.



#113 ogreslayer

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Wo is this Marchenko guy?  I have never heard of him.  And what does he have to do with the wings?  Thanks in advance.

That would be Alexei Marchenko, a 6'2" 183lbs d-man the Wings drafted in the 7th round in 2011. He was allowed to develop in the KHL instead of being brought over to GR. Supposed to be a good puck mover despite being a more stay-at-home type of d-man. A righty too which is a plus.

Edit to add stats: He's put up 4 goals, 5 assists, & an even rating in 39 games for CSKA Moskva this season as a 20/21 year old.

Edited by ogreslayer, 12 February 2013 - 02:36 PM.


#114 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Wo is this Marchenko guy?  I have never heard of him.  And what does he have to do with the wings?  Thanks in advance.

 

Russian D-man prospect. We drafted him in the 7th round in 2011. He was ranked as the 25th best Euro that year, but he made it pretty clear that he didn't want to leave Russia, so no one wanted to draft him. However, he told the Wings that if we drafted him he would come to NA to play for us. So basically we got a late 1st round D-man with a 7th round pick.


Edited by number9, 12 February 2013 - 02:33 PM.


#115 ogreslayer

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

 
Russian D-man prospect. We drafted him in the 7th round in 2011. He was ranked as the 25th best Euro that year, but he made it pretty clear that he didn't want to leave Russia, so no one wanted to draft him. However, he told the Wings that if we drafted him he would come to NA to play for us. So basically we got a late 1st round D-man with a 7th round pick.


And to add to that, he was expected to captain the Russian World Jr team in 2012 before he blew his knee out. There's a chance he'll be pulled over to GR next season.

#116 paulb1320

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

ummm you just repeated and proved my point. Our best prospects ARE PLAYING JUNIOR HOCKEY RIGHT NOW! That is what I said. Our best are not tatar, nyquist, or the rest of the gang in GR. Those are very limited NHL guys. Some checkers and a few 35-40 point guys. That is all we have ready for the next 24 months. The problem with guys playing Junior hockey is, can they handle the next level. on that we don't know.

 

Jarnkrok, Backman, Pulk, and Marchenko aren't in the juniors they are all playing pro hockey against grown men and excelling. Also Sproul, Ouellet, Frk, Tvrdon, and possible Jensen and Dekeyser,  while in the minors/college right now are all coming to GR next season along with the euro guys I listed (with the exception of Backman). 

If we still have the inside track on Dekeyser (IMO we do) he'll be given a spot in Detroit from the get go or else he'll probably sign somewhere else. Hakan has said before that Jarnkrok won't need to play in the AHL and would be a difference maker in the NHL from the get go, same goes for Backman when he decides to make the jump, most likely in 14-15. Add to that the fact that Ouellet will likely be on the fast track to the big leagues and it looks like we have quite a few difference makers ready within the next 24 months.

That's not even including me discounting your absolutely ridiculous claims that Tatar and Nyquist are "35-40 point guys"

 

 

TL;DR

You say all of our best prospects are in the juniors and not ready to play in 2 years? False. 

  • Jarnkrok/Pulu/Backman/Marchenko are playing pro hockey against men not junior hockey. Jarnkrok and Backman could probably make the jump straight to the NHL in the next 2 years (13-14 for Calle and 14-15 for Backman) * Based on Andersson's comments (someone who knows something about scouting; unlike yourself)
  • Ouellet will be on the fast track to the NHL and probably only need one year in GR so he'll be ready/close to ready by 14-15.
  • Dekeyser signing with us is still a good possibility, He'll be in the NHL right way if we have any hope at signing him.
  • You're assessment of Tatar and Nyquist as 35-40 point guys is ludicrous, the majority of scouts and prospect rankers (people who know what they're talking about. Not you) rank them as top 6 talent, ffs hockey's future ranks Nyquist 38th in the whole league (even higher if you exclude graduated prospects),  and hockey prospectus has Jarnkrok, Nyquist, and Tatar all top 50 prospects in the league.

That's 5-6 difference makers within 2 years. 2-3 potential Top 6 forwards, and 2-3 potential Top 4 D.


Edited by paulb1320, 12 February 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#117 number9

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

Do you ever watch hockey? i mean come on. But since you posted it...
Raedeke 22 goals in 159 AHL games. Skill? nope. Size? Under the NHL average. Speed? Average.
Sheahan-he is a checker. Abdelkader 2.0
Andersson-he is a checker, would have to improve to be equal to Abdelkader.
Aubry? Skill? really? What are you smoking. 6 goals in 100 AHL games. no speed either.
Nestrasil-can't even play with the griffins. has been demoted to Toledo. 5 points in 31 career AHL games will do that.
Nyquist-has he already been passed by tatar? he is 24 and hasn't done anything with the big club.
parkes-checker, again has to improve to even be equal to Abdelkader.
 
Most of the rest are still playing junior, which is where i said much of our talent is and no one has any idea on how they will turn out.


I will take that bet. TBH, i hope your right, but I know you are not. Of course any trades made can and will chnage that opinion. As of today, this team losses in the 1st round if we make it in at all.


 
I never said Raedeke brought size or skill. I said he brought speed and strength.
 
"He’s not scared to go into the corners. He doesn’t run guys over but he has strength on the puck and we like the game he plays.” - Jim Nill

"We think he has a little bit of Darren Helm in him. He’s a good skater with good speed" - Jim Nill
 
I said Sheahan brought Size, Strength, & Skill. Since you seem to agree on the size and strength, I'll educate you on his skill.

“We think he could be a point-producer for us, for sure. He’s got a great feel of when to go into holes in the offensive zone below the tops of the circles. He finds places to go and get the puck. He has the ability to really beat guys down low." - Mark Leach
 
"He can score and set up plays and he’s pretty solid all-around offensively.” - Mark Leach
 
"He does remind me of Johan Franzen. He’s got a big, thick body. He’s been a big scorer. That’s what we project him to be.” - Jim Nill

"He has very good offensive ability" - Jeff Blashill

I said Andersson brought size and strength. So yeah no sh** sherlock... he's a checker. And of course he has to improve to be equal to Abdelkader, he's a prospect.......

 
Aubry's not as skilled as Datsyuk, or as fast as Helm, but he's also not a skill-less slow bruiser. 

"Good solid two-way player, good skater, very smart, smart on the puck, and he can dish the puck pretty well" - Mark Leach
 
“He doesn’t have any glaring weaknesses." - Mark Leach
 
I said nothing about Nestrasil's demotion. He's only 21 and still has plenty of time to improve and find his game. What I did say is that he brings size, strength, and skill.
 
“He’s willing to pay the price every shift and he’s ready to battle every shift. He’s a big body, he throws his body around, he never refuses physical contact and he’s always engaged … He’s not a guy you look at and say, ‘He’s going to be a third- or fourth-line guy in the NHL.’ He’s got more skill than that. If he keeps improving his skating, he could be a good offensive player in the NHL.” - Yanick Jean
 
Parkes is a checker? Yeah, no sh**, that's why I said he brings size and strength. And again, he's a PROSPECT, of course he needs to improve to the level of somebody like Abdelkader. If he didn't need to improve and develop more he wouldn't be a prospect lol.
 
I'm not even going to address your comments about Nyquist. That's just beyond uninformed and ignorant.

Edited by number9, 12 February 2013 - 03:31 PM.


#118 Konnan511

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:59 AM

ummm you just repeated and proved my point. Our best prospects ARE PLAYING JUNIOR HOCKEY RIGHT NOW! That is what I said. Our best are not tatar, nyquist, or the rest of the gang in GR. Those are very limited NHL guys. Some checkers and a few 35-40 point guys. That is all we have ready for the next 24 months. The problem with guys playing Junior hockey is, can they handle the next level. on that we don't know.


Our top players are playing in professional leagues. Next season and the season after we will be a significantly younger and more skilled team.
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#119 Buppy

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:39 AM

ummm you just repeated and proved my point. Our best prospects ARE PLAYING JUNIOR HOCKEY RIGHT NOW! That is what I said. Our best are not tatar, nyquist, or the rest of the gang in GR. Those are very limited NHL guys. Some checkers and a few 35-40 point guys. That is all we have ready for the next 24 months. The problem with guys playing Junior hockey is, can they handle the next level. on that we don't know.

 

We might have saved some pointless discussion if you had just said you don't like Nyquist and Tatar instead of generalizing about our prospects as a group. We already know that most of the group in GR aren't going to amount to much in the NHL. The same true for pretty much all teams. I would guess that many, even most, teams have only a few of their best prospects in the AHL. Junior players still eligible for the CHL aren't allowed to play in the AHL. European players usually stay in Europe a year or two.

 

However, they could still be ready for the NHL within a couple years. Guys like Sproul, Ouellet, Frk, Tvrdon, Athanasiou, or even Quine could conceivably jump straight from juniors, or spend just a year in GR. Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Marchenko, and Backman could all do the same from Europe. Of course, not all of them will. Maybe none of them will. Some will likely wash out altogether. But some could make it, some could even become stars. Point being, not all prospects have to spend years in the AHL.



#120 Johnz96

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:39 PM

So let me understand. The last 3 years, with more talent we get sent home early. That is ok? if we couldn't win the SC or even get close with better teams, how is staying the same going to be better? Another 1 round exit is better than a couple of high end picks, or young up and coming players? When Datsyuk and Z walk, sometime over the next 2-5 years, we are done, baring a major change. can that happen solely by the draft? yes. Does our % improve with more draft picks? yes it does. Would it be better to move a proven vet that is still very veyr good and get some NHL ready guys now? yes. if we say moved datsyuk, you still have plenty of vets and leadership on the team to show the younger guys the way to play. if all the vets are gone, who does that?

I am not saying anything is easy, far from it. But this why GM's get paid millions of dollars per year.

Take your s*** colored glasses off.


Edited by Johnz96, 13 February 2013 - 01:40 PM.






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