Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Doug Wilson: goalie pads are too big.


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 FireCaptain

FireCaptain

    Whaddya mean I can't beat BOSTON?

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,881 posts
  • Location:Atoka, TN

Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:49 PM

Well, you don't say. Where was this outrage when pillow pants JS Giguere was running rampant?

 

 

 

http://www.thehockey...oalie-pads.html


Most nights, my posts are brought to you by Heineken and sarcasm.
Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.
We not score, is hard to win. - Pavel Datsyuk #13

#2 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

he's got a point, but at the same time, players have composite sticks that have been unknown to earlier days. one piece composite sticks that are made of carbon fiber that result in high velocity shots. you want to give players advantage after advantage, giving them equipment to increase shot accuracy, and velocity but yet they want to complain about goaltenders? I just don't see the point. If skater equipment wants to evolve, well so should tendy equipment. it would equal out the playing fields, not just give the players an advantage without giving the tendies a chance to get back at it. 


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#3 The Axe

The Axe

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,379 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:13 PM

Well, you don't say. Where was this outrage when pillow pants JS Giguere was running rampant?
 
 ha! Giguere and his size 92 jersey and 2 foot wide pads.
 
http://www.thehockey...oalie-pads.html



#4 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

he's got a point, but at the same time, players have composite sticks that have been unknown to earlier days. one piece composite sticks that are made of carbon fiber that result in high velocity shots. you want to give players advantage after advantage, giving them equipment to increase shot accuracy, and velocity but yet they want to complain about goaltenders? I just don't see the point. If skater equipment wants to evolve, well so should tendy equipment. it would equal out the playing fields, not just give the players an advantage without giving the tendies a chance to get back at it. 

 

And goalie pads are lighter, allow more flexibility/maneuverability, better protection, better visibility in the masks, massive chest protectors, shoulder and elbow pads, big baggy jerseys, bulkier pants... something needs to be cut back.



#5 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:58 PM

Well, you don't say. Where was this outrage when pillow pants JS Giguere was running rampant?

 

 

 

http://www.thehockey...oalie-pads.html

Not only the pads but the shoulder pads, chest protector, sweaters , gloves even the helmets are designed bigger and with flares to block out more net



he's got a point, but at the same time, players have composite sticks that have been unknown to earlier days. one piece composite sticks that are made of carbon fiber that result in high velocity shots. you want to give players advantage after advantage, giving them equipment to increase shot accuracy, and velocity but yet they want to complain about goaltenders? I just don't see the point. If skater equipment wants to evolve, well so should tendy equipment. it would equal out the playing fields, not just give the players an advantage without giving the tendies a chance to get back at it. 

Goalie equipment is much lighter, more flexible, more protective and scientifically designed to absorb rebounds.

It is much bigger now  to block out more net to restrict talent and skill for thesake of parity to give weaker teams a better chance at winning games



#6 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:58 PM

And goalie pads are lighter, allow more flexibility/maneuverability, better protection, better visibility in the masks, massive chest protectors, shoulder and elbow pads, big baggy jerseys, bulkier pants... something needs to be cut back.

 

then what about players? equipment allows for better speed, velocity, more protection while sending more of a danger to others. while goalies may have expanded their gear, skaters have expanded theirs also. I just think it's wrong to say that goalies have gotten the advantage when skaters have gotten the same treatment. especially when within the slot area, with todays velocity. it's nearly humanly impossible to save some shots within close distances at the velocity composite sticks can deliver, especially at different flex variants. 


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#7 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

then what about players? equipment allows for better speed, velocity, more protection while sending more of a danger to others. while goalies may have expanded their gear, skaters have expanded theirs also. I just think it's wrong to say that goalies have gotten the advantage when skaters have gotten the same treatment. especially when within the slot area, with todays velocity. it's nearly humanly impossible to save some shots within close distances at the velocity composite sticks can deliver, especially at different flex variants. 

The improvements to goalie equipment is so much more of an advantage than the improvements made to the players equipment over the last 20 years even without making it bigger., mostly because goalies use so much more of it. It is much lighter, more flexible, more protective and even scientifically designed to absorb rebounds. 

The increase in size is to block out more net for the sake of parity, to limit talent and skill to give weaker teams a better chance of winning games


Edited by Johnz96, 09 February 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#8 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

then what about players? equipment allows for better speed, velocity, more protection while sending more of a danger to others. while goalies may have expanded their gear, skaters have expanded theirs also. I just think it's wrong to say that goalies have gotten the advantage when skaters have gotten the same treatment. especially when within the slot area, with todays velocity. it's nearly humanly impossible to save some shots within close distances at the velocity composite sticks can deliver, especially at different flex variants. 

 

It's impossible to stop some shots even with the velocity from old sticks. So what? It should be impossible to stop some shots. I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to 50s-era goalie equipment, but the equipment now is getting out of hand. Needs to be reigned in a bit, like armpit webs were.



#9 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

It's impossible to stop some shots even with the velocity from old sticks. So what? It should be impossible to stop some shots. I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to 50s-era goalie equipment, but the equipment now is getting out of hand. Needs to be reigned in a bit, like armpit webs were.

 

 

The improvements to goalie equipment is so much more of an advantage than the improvements made to the players equipment over the last 20 years even without making it bigger., mostly because goalies use so much more of it. It is much lighter, more flexible, more protective and even scientifically designed to absorb rebounds. 

The increase in size is to block out more net for the sake of parity, to limit talent and skill to give weaker teams a better chance of winning games

 

 

It's impossible to stop some shots even with the velocity from old sticks. So what? It should be impossible to stop some shots. I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to 50s-era goalie equipment, but the equipment now is getting out of hand. Needs to be reigned in a bit, like armpit webs were.

 

then what, you want to complain about goalies getting a better advantage while the skaters get more of an advantage? listen, it evens itself out. the league wants to promote scoring, so i can see your argument with goalies having too big of equipment, but at the same time, why allow the skaters to have such an advantage, and seriously it is... with the sticks we have nowadays, i can rip a shot that was unbelievable in the early days, it's just that easy. wooden sticks to not have the same flex as composites.... composites can have flex that allows them to seriously bend within 50+% and release with uncanny amounts of velocity, unseen by earlier day shots that were just flexed within barely any amount. sticks nowadays are adopted to take in the flex, and excel with insane amounts of velocity, which is why we see players nowdays with sick releases, because they can exibit uncanny amount of speed, while bending a stick within a toedrag. If I can drag a puck along my toe, while expanding within the crease, tell me how fair it is for the goalie to have a chance when I target a corner with accuracy and release it with such speed? there is no human that can adopt to that. plain and simple. while I also agree that goalie pads have expanded to give them such an advantage, there should be something done to the players at the same time. it's unfair to allow the skaters to play with such an advantage through natural skill than giving a goalie some type of chance to giving them more of a chance to save these insane in-the-slot shots coming off of 90+ mph with ease. i'm sorry, but i just can't agree with this, even with me playing as a skater in my days. skaters have always had the advantage with the technology.


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#10 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

then what, you want to complain about goalies getting a better advantage while the skaters get more of an advantage? listen, it evens itself out. the league wants to promote scoring, so i can see your argument with goalies having too big of equipment, but at the same time, why allow the skaters to have such an advantage, and seriously it is... with the sticks we have nowadays, i can rip a shot that was unbelievable in the early days, it's just that easy. wooden sticks to not have the same flex as composites.... composites can have flex that allows them to seriously bend within 50+% and release with uncanny amounts of velocity, unseen by earlier day shots that were just flexed within barely any amount. sticks nowadays are adopted to take in the flex, and excel with insane amounts of velocity, which is why we see players nowdays with sick releases, because they can exibit uncanny amount of speed, while bending a stick within a toedrag. If I can drag a puck along my toe, while expanding within the crease, tell me how fair it is for the goalie to have a chance when I target a corner with accuracy and release it with such speed? there is no human that can adopt to that. plain and simple. while I also agree that goalie pads have expanded to give them such an advantage, there should be something done to the players at the same time. it's unfair to allow the skaters to play with such an advantage through natural skill than giving a goalie some type of chance to giving them more of a chance to save these insane in-the-slot shots coming off of 90+ mph with ease. i'm sorry, but i just can't agree with this, even with me playing as a skater in my days. skaters have always had the advantage with the technology.

It would pretty much even itself out (I think it would still be in favor of the goalies a little because they use so much more equipment) if they didn't increase the size of the goalie equipment to block out more net.

.

I think most fans enjoy the game when it isn't so defensive I know I do. I think most players enjoy playing a game that is less defensive. I think a buzz is made about the league and the sport when someone is threatening to break major records (something no one will ever be able to do unless they have as much net to shoot at as the guys holding the records did).

Also as much as the sticks have helped with the velocity of shots ( Iafrate, MacIness and others still shot over 100 mph with wooden sticks and I don't think anyone is shooting at over 110 mph so the advantage isn't that great there either but goalie equipment is blocking out more than 10% more of the net now), they have also often helped goalies by breaking as a player was attempting to shoot)

They allowed the goalie equipment to get so much bigger for the sake of parity to restrict talent and skill in order to give weaker teams abetter chance of winning games

I


Edited by Johnz96, 09 February 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#11 Jedi

Jedi

    Spell Forged - Unparalleled Quality

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 9,804 posts
  • Location:Dallas

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:17 AM

Not only the pads but the shoulder pads, chest protector, sweaters , gloves even the helmets are designed bigger and with flares to block out more net

 

Garth Snow has no idea what you're talking about...

C7C361DF1CF5DA5048E89A5FF35EA.jpg


snyoep.jpg
"I am the sword in the darkness... I am the watcher on the walls...
I am the shield that guards the realms of men..."


#12 Hey man nice shot!

Hey man nice shot!

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts
  • Location:St.johns MI

Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:18 AM

Garth Snow has no idea what you're talking about...

C7C361DF1CF5DA5048E89A5FF35EA.jpg

Hahaha Roy's oversized gear comes to mind aswell:D



#13 Nev

Nev

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,039 posts
  • Location:Lincolnshire, England

Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:25 AM

I remember an article from 10 years ago in the Freep, where they interviewed Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille and Shanahan (so over 2000 NHL goals then), and they all said the number one reason for the decline in scoring back then was goalie equipment.  Hull admitted to actually trying to hurt Hasek in practise once, and Hasek didn't even notice.  I also remember one of them saying that there was a time when you could score with a really good slapper, but with the big equipment it was impossible without a screen and/or deflection.

 

You can have a stick made out of kryptonite, but if the goalie equipment is so big that the entire net is covered, you ain't gunna score.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#14 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

It would pretty much even itself out (I think it would still be in favor of the goalies a little because they use so much more equipment) if they didn't increase the size of the goalie equipment to block out more net.

.

I think most fans enjoy the game when it isn't so defensive I know I do. I think most players enjoy playing a game that is less defensive. I think a buzz is made about the league and the sport when someone is threatening to break major records (something no one will ever be able to do unless they have as much net to shoot at as the guys holding the records did).

Also as much as the sticks have helped with the velocity of shots ( Iafrate, MacIness and others still shot over 100 mph with wooden sticks and I don't think anyone is shooting at over 110 mph so the advantage isn't that great there either but goalie equipment is blocking out more than 10% more of the net now), they have also often helped goalies by breaking as a player was attempting to shoot)

They allowed the goalie equipment to get so much bigger for the sake of parity to restrict talent and skill in order to give weaker teams abetter chance of winning games

I

 

and that's what i'm saying. the playing field needs to be even. while I can agree that pads may be too big nowadays, it's within reason. you could throw a 100 mph clapper down range back in the day like Al McInnis, but it's a clapper requiring one hell of a swing back and accelerated weight transfer. nowadays, i can sit on the circle and release a shot that rolls 80+ mph with ease. now it just becomes my shot against your reaction speed, which like I said, there's been numerous reports and studies that show that within the slot area, goalies don't have a chance to save a puck going at the speeds they are in todays day and age. humans simply don't have that reaction speed. so now you give these players that have outstanding accuracy (not saying back in the day players didn't have accuracy, but to say our development programs and over the ages that players get better and better, is silly), sticks that help continue their success accuracy wise, and ones that promote wicked speed shots from close distances that require a slim to none throw because you can just flex it and throw it down range in a sling shot type of fashion. it just doesn't make sense to me to give players advantage over advantage, and want to promote giving them a better chance at the game, than goalies (whom I strictly believe already have the hardest job on the ice). if we want to start complaining about how big goalie pads are, we might as well start complaining and making a size requirement too, because goalies are just going to keep getting bigger and bigger, regardless of pad size...


Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#15 dobbles

dobbles

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 864 posts
  • Location:Tulsa, OK

Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:47 AM

composite sticks are a pretty weak justification for having giant goalie pads. its not as if composite sticks have created shots that are 50% better or anything. there were already guys with triple digit shots with wooden sticks. it took chara years to get the speed record at the allstar game and that dudes like 18 feet tall, its easy to see why he can shoot so hard. the only thing composite sticks have done is even the playing field for skaters. they make it easier for anyone to have a decent shot while not really helping the guys that were great shooters to begin with. its not as if we are talking about a similar situation to when they started curving the blades and radically changed the game.

 

 

 

regardless, the current brand of hockey is boring. the reason? the league has switched the entire strategy of playing the game. it used to be you went out there and tried to score more goals than the other team. but since the 90's, the game became about giving up less goals. some may say its semantics, but its not. when the objective is to score more goals, you are fine with taking chances, you are fine with making mistakes. because the idea is that you can make up for it by scoring more. when the philosophy is to give up less goals than the other team, then you dont take risks, dont reward offensive creativity, etc. that leads to a less exciting brand of hockey for most fans.

 

sure no one wants to see hockey turn into basketball where you score tons of times. but reducing goalie pad sizes would likely lead to an increase in scoring and could help turn the game from a defensive one to an offensive one.


I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#16 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:58 AM

here's an older article that captures why goalie equipment isn't the reason for the drop in goal scoring;

 

http://brodeurisafra...nt-was-not.html

 

take a gander, he makes some great points 



and here's one from nightmare on helm street explaining why it isn't necessarily the size of the pads, but rather their length and the butterfly position taking over the game. just alittle more flavor to the sauce to get a better debate going

 

http://www.nightmare...nt-changes.html


Edited by evilzyme, 10 February 2013 - 11:58 AM.

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#17 The Greek

The Greek

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 399 posts
  • Location:L-Town

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

I am all for shorter pads. The thigh rises have gotten out of control. I think they should leave the width of the pads and gloves alone. They chopped a couple inches off of the width already and they eliminated calf wedges. Furthermore, an adult sized glove used to be intermediate sized just a few years ago. As far as ca's, pants, and masks. Those should be left alone. The gear shouldn't protrude in a way where it only serves the purpose of blocking shots. But, the gear does need to be bulky in order for it to be safe. A couple of months ago, I took clapper to the sternum that had me coughing up blood. I play beer league hockey. If I it were an NHL player shooting, would have been f***ed.

#18 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

Well, you don't say. Where was this outrage when pillow pants JS Giguere was running rampant?

 

 

 

http://www.thehockey...oalie-pads.html

There has been outrage about the oversized goalie equipment from fans, in the media, from management and players for about 20 yrs now. That's why Bettman has been forced to pretend that he is addressing the problem by reducing the size of pads twice (they're still bigger than before he became commissioner), while ignoring all the other equipment that has ballooned . That's why he made changes in the rule book to supposedly add more scoring like the trapezoid.
It was a big issue but most people gave up on it and accepted it



composite sticks are a pretty weak justification for having giant goalie pads. its not as if composite sticks have created shots that are 50% better or anything. there were already guys with triple digit shots with wooden sticks. it took chara years to get the speed record at the allstar game and that dudes like 18 feet tall, its easy to see why he can shoot so hard. the only thing composite sticks have done is even the playing field for skaters. they make it easier for anyone to have a decent shot while not really helping the guys that were great shooters to begin with. its not as if we are talking about a similar situation to when they started curving the blades and radically changed the game.

 

 

 

regardless, the current brand of hockey is boring. the reason? the league has switched the entire strategy of playing the game. it used to be you went out there and tried to score more goals than the other team. but since the 90's, the game became about giving up less goals. some may say its semantics, but its not. when the objective is to score more goals, you are fine with taking chances, you are fine with making mistakes. because the idea is that you can make up for it by scoring more. when the philosophy is to give up less goals than the other team, then you dont take risks, dont reward offensive creativity, etc. that leads to a less exciting brand of hockey for most fans.

 

sure no one wants to see hockey turn into basketball where you score tons of times. but reducing goalie pad sizes would likely lead to an increase in scoring and could help turn the game from a defensive one to an offensive one.

The goalies are getting all the advantages that is why scoring has dropped so much!



here's an older article that captures why goalie equipment isn't the reason for the drop in goal scoring;

 

http://brodeurisafra...nt-was-not.html

 

take a gander, he makes some great points 



and here's one from nightmare on helm street explaining why it isn't necessarily the size of the pads, but rather their length and the butterfly position taking over the game. just alittle more flavor to the sauce to get a better debate going

 

http://www.nightmare...nt-changes.html

It's all bulls***. If you block out more of the net, there will be less scoring. It is really simple. It only takes a modicum of intelligence to understand.


Edited by Johnz96, 10 February 2013 - 12:24 PM.


#19 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

here's an older article that captures why goalie equipment isn't the reason for the drop in goal scoring;

 

http://brodeurisafra...nt-was-not.html

 

take a gander, he makes some great points 



and here's one from nightmare on helm street explaining why it isn't necessarily the size of the pads, but rather their length and the butterfly position taking over the game. just alittle more flavor to the sauce to get a better debate going

 

http://www.nightmare...nt-changes.html

 

That Nightmare on Helm Street article is saying the same thing as the article you're arguing against. Thigh risers are too big, and make it too easy to close the 5-hole.

 

Even the other article admits that equipment has lowered scoring. If bigger equipment was only offsetting better sticks, it shouldn't have an effect at all.



#20 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

I am all for shorter pads. The thigh rises have gotten out of control. I think they should leave the width of the pads and gloves alone. They chopped a couple inches off of the width already and they eliminated calf wedges. Furthermore, an adult sized glove used to be intermediate sized just a few years ago. As far as ca's, pants, and masks. Those should be left alone. The gear shouldn't protrude in a way where it only serves the purpose of blocking shots. But, the gear does need to be bulky in order for it to be safe. A couple of months ago, I took clapper to the sternum that had me coughing up blood. I play beer league hockey. If I it were an NHL player shooting, would have been f***ed.

You can make equipment more protective without making it so much bigger. Maybe a little heavier though.
Clapper???







Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users