98 replies to this topic

[Andy Pred 48]

Franzen was taken in the draft as a projected 3/4 line guy at max. He's done very well and has surpassed his targeted role within the club.

If Kenny was a little more constructive with his $ he could have fitted both Hossa and Franzen into the team. When you get a bonifide superstar 

on your roster who scores 40 goals in his first season with his new club you do try and get the guy re-signed, this was def Kennys biggest gaff.

[Carman]

If we signed Hossa to a long deal, securing Zetterberg would have been an issue, along with Re-signing Ericsson later, along with Howard, Hudler, Filpulla, Lidstrom, and Kronwall.

 

I love Hossa, but it would have been neigh-impossible to secure both him and Franzen while still having flexibility. I still think I would have down whatever I could to keep Hossa, but it's wasn't the easiest decision, Zetterberg was making 3 million the year Hossa played here. Also recall back that we still had 6 million invested in Raflaski as well. Sure it looks like we could afford both now, but that's because we've lost a lot of high salary players.

 

Was it a bad move in retrospect? Probably, but you keep a 30+ scorer coming off of some dynamic playoff performances, that you've develop, and is on a better deal. It just doesn't seem like the worst move ever to me.

 

Once again, I love Hossa, and would take him on my team everyday, I just understand the situation the Wings were in.

[Euro_Twins]

If we signed Hossa to a long deal, securing Zetterberg would have been an issue, along with Re-signing Ericsson later, along with Howard, Hudler, Filpulla, Lidstrom, and Kronwall.

 

I love Hossa, but it would have been neigh-impossible to secure both him and Franzen while still having flexibility. I still think I would have down whatever I could to keep Hossa, but it's wasn't the easiest decision, Zetterberg was making 3 million the year Hossa played here. Also recall back that we still had 6 million invested in Raflaski as well. Sure it looks like we could afford both now, but that's because we've lost a lot of high salary players.

 

Was it a bad move in retrospect? Probably, but you keep a 30+ scorer coming off of some dynamic playoff performances, that you've develop, and is on a better deal. It just doesn't seem like the worst move ever to me.

 

Once again, I love Hossa, and would take him on my team everyday, I just understand the situation the Wings were in.

The only I would change would be to not sign Hudler

[LeftWinger]

For a guy who was picked up on waivers, I don't think you can complain.

 

The Roy trade, I have seen before a list of what Montreal supposedly wanted, and it didn't include Fedorov, it was a bunch of depth players who would have been easily replaced.  Look at what it cost Colorado for Roy (and Keane as well) - Thibault, Rucinsky and Kovalenko.

 

I'm going to throw in as my selection picking Keith Primeau with the 3rd overall pick in the 1990 draft ahead of Jagr.  Primeau was a decent player who helped get us Shanahan in the end, but he was Jagr,

 

If we are going to go with Draft mistakes, there are ton of mistakes the Wings made, along with 30 other teams...but using your example of Primeau, if I were to go back and draft a different person in that spot, it wouldn't have been Jagr, it would have been Brodeur. Then the other debate on the Osgood for Roy and whoever else ws invovlved point is moot.  Besides, with the team we iced in the 90's and 2000's there would have been more Cups with Brodeur on this team than Roy.  WIth or without Primeau, I still think Bowman would have been able to acquire Shanahan...

 

 

Mistake by the Wings:

 

Choosing Hudler and Franzen over Hossa...(I hated it then and have never waivered from that opinion)

 

Even though Hudler ended up going to Russia, Holland had offered him a $3.5M contract before Hudler opted for arbitration, so Holland was handcuffed until the decision or Hudler's decision...so the $3.9M to Franzine and the $3.5M offer to Hudler could have EASILY landed Hossa here for life considering his cap hit is only $5.275M...take that away from the Franzine/Hudler offer of $7.4M total that left $2.2M in cap space to pick up another FA.  This is one of many of Holland mistakes in recent history and it started the downfall of the Red Wings to where they stand right now.

 

Trading a 1st for Quincey was just the start of that screw up...not letting him walk as a RFA and getting picks in return was another...then overpaying him by about $1M was another mistake...letting him play every night and stinking up the joint is the topper for this deal...trade him and save some face.

Edited by LeftWinger, 19 February 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Richdg]

Hindsight is always 20/20. There is no perfect GM in any sport anywhere. heck even fans can't agree on what type of players they want. Some like small speedy guys, other big power guys, others yet a mixture. Same thing with drafts. IIRC about 63% of first rounders become career NHL guys. That means they play more than 200 games. in the second round it drops to 25%. For the 3rd round on, it is only 12%. 1 out of 6 drafted players ever play more than 200 games in the NHL. Now those that become stars...... well it is a really small number.

Has Holland done things that I disagree with? Yup. has he done things I like? Yup. Point is, it is always a mixed bag. We were on top of the league for 20 years. To stay there we traded picks and young players. Now we are paying for it. Would I trade a single SC for 3 1st round picks today? hell no.

Now it is time to rebuild. This will take 2-3 years to do it right. No it will not be fun. But it is what it is. 

[Buppy]

If we are going to go with Draft mistakes, there are ton of mistakes the Wings made, along with 30 other teams...but using your example of Primeau, if I were to go back and draft a different person in that spot, it wouldn't have been Jagr, it would have been Brodeur. Then the other debate on the Osgood for Roy and whoever else ws invovlved point is moot.  Besides, with the team we iced in the 90's and 2000's there would have been more Cups with Brodeur on this team than Roy.  WIth or without Primeau, I still think Bowman would have been able to acquire Shanahan...

 

 

Mistake by the Wings:

 

Choosing Hudler and Franzen over Hossa...(I hated it then and have never waivered from that opinion)

 

Even though Hudler ended up going to Russia, Holland had offered him a $3.5M contract before Hudler opted for arbitration, so Holland was handcuffed until the decision or Hudler's decision...so the $3.9M to Franzine and the $3.5M offer to Hudler could have EASILY landed Hossa here for life considering his cap hit is only $5.275M...take that away from the Franzine/Hudler offer of $7.4M total that left $2.2M in cap space to pick up another FA.  This is one of many of Holland mistakes in recent history and it started the downfall of the Red Wings to where they stand right now.

 

Trading a 1st for Quincey was just the start of that screw up...not letting him walk as a RFA and getting picks in return was another...then overpaying him by about $1M was another mistake...letting him play every night and stinking up the joint is the topper for this deal...trade him and save some face.

Regardless of what Hudler may have been offered, the fact is he wasn't on the 09-10 team. His hypothetical salary wouldn't have helped pay for Hossa. His salary in the two years he was here was $2.875M, which would have allowed Hossa plus around $1.5M to replace Hudler. Might have evened out in 10-11, but last year Franzen and Hudler combined for 54 goals. Hossa only had 29, same as Franzen. Chances of getting 25 goals (and a few assists) for $1.5M are slim.

 

And again, letting Quincey walk for picks was never an option, since Quincey never signed an offer sheet.

[LeftWinger]

Hindsight is always 20/20. There is no perfect GM in any sport anywhere. heck even fans can't agree on what type of players they want. Some like small speedy guys, other big power guys, others yet a mixture. Same thing with drafts. IIRC about 63% of first rounders become career NHL guys. That means they play more than 200 games. in the second round it drops to 25%. For the 3rd round on, it is only 12%. 1 out of 6 drafted players ever play more than 200 games in the NHL. Now those that become stars...... well it is a really small number.

Has Holland done things that I disagree with? Yup. has he done things I like? Yup. Point is, it is always a mixed bag. We were on top of the league for 20 years. To stay there we traded picks and young players. Now we are paying for it. Would I trade a single SC for 3 1st round picks today? hell no.

Now it is time to rebuild. This will take 2-3 years to do it right. No it will not be fun. But it is what it is. 

 

I hope it only takes 2-3 years....it took 42 years after the WIngs dominated the 30s and 40s...It's all on Holland to make the corrections of the mistakes he made the last 3 years AND to start drafting better in the higher rounds so we get that superstar talent. We will see this deadling, draft, UFA day...this is maybe the biggest and most defining time in Holland's life, IMO if he sits at #17 in the draft and both Pulock and Hagg are available and he chooses Hagg, then we may be looking at another 42 year drought.  He needs to make the right choices NOW to get this team back to the top in 2-3 years and drafting the same old way and signing the same old players is not going to do it.  He needs to prove to the UFA world that he is serious and that Detroit IS the place to be again. He is not doing that by giving players like Sammy and Bert two year contract, not by giving away 40-50 goal snipers and keeping 20-30 goal 3rd liners.  He is not doing that by overpaying (1st rounder) for a journey-man defenseman who wasn't good enough to keep befre when you drafted him in the 4th round.  I understand he was trying to lessen the blow of Stuart leaving, but I think he just waited too long and was desperate and dropped the ball and it is showing. I think that he was under the impression that Stuart may change his mind and Lidstrom would give it one more year (again.)  And Holland dragged his feet until it was too late.

 

We will see come deadline....if we hear the same old <player name> returning from injury is our deadline acquisition....

 

We will see come draft...if we hear that Haken Andersson recommended Robert Hagg over Ryan Pulock and we like his play and project him to be a solid player in 5 years...

 

We will see come UFA...if we hear, we kicked the tires, made some calls, but in the end we liked our team going forward...we fell good offering Cleary another 2 years and giving Fil $5M+...

 

...then we wil see if it takes 2-3 years. I doubt it.

[Z and D for the C]

If we signed Hossa to a long deal, securing Zetterberg would have been an issue, along with Re-signing Ericsson later, along with Howard, Hudler, Filpulla, Lidstrom, and Kronwall.

 

I love Hossa, but it would have been neigh-impossible to secure both him and Franzen while still having flexibility.

 

You're right, but I'm not saying that Holland should have signed Hossa and Franzen, I'm saying Holland should have let Franzen walk, or at least signed Hossa first and seen if Franzen could have been signed after.

 

Hossa probably wouldn't score that many more goals than Franzen, but if Franzen isn't scoring goals, he isn't doing ANYTHING. Hossa, on the other hand, even if he isn't scoring goals, he's still one of your best, hardest working players. That's the difference. And knowing we could have gotten him for maybe 1 million more than Franzen, if even, hurts my soul.

[Richdg]

I hope it only takes 2-3 years....it took 42 years after the WIngs dominated the 30s and 40s...It's all on Holland to make the corrections of the mistakes he made the last 3 years AND to start drafting better in the higher rounds so we get that superstar talent. We will see this deadling, draft, UFA day...this is maybe the biggest and most defining time in Holland's life, IMO if he sits at #17 in the draft and both Pulock and Hagg are available and he chooses Hagg, then we may be looking at another 42 year drought.  He needs to make the right choices NOW to get this team back to the top in 2-3 years and drafting the same old way and signing the same old players is not going to do it.  He needs to prove to the UFA world that he is serious and that Detroit IS the place to be again. He is not doing that by giving players like Sammy and Bert two year contract, not by giving away 40-50 goal snipers and keeping 20-30 goal 3rd liners.  He is not doing that by overpaying (1st rounder) for a journey-man defenseman who wasn't good enough to keep befre when you drafted him in the 4th round.  I understand he was trying to lessen the blow of Stuart leaving, but I think he just waited too long and was desperate and dropped the ball and it is showing. I think that he was under the impression that Stuart may change his mind and Lidstrom would give it one more year (again.)  And Holland dragged his feet until it was too late.

 

We will see come deadline....if we hear the same old <player name> returning from injury is our deadline acquisition....

 

We will see come draft...if we hear that Haken Andersson recommended Robert Hagg over Ryan Pulock and we like his play and project him to be a solid player in 5 years...

 

We will see come UFA...if we hear, we kicked the tires, made some calls, but in the end we liked our team going forward...we fell good offering Cleary another 2 years and giving Fil $5M+...

 

...then we wil see if it takes 2-3 years. I doubt it.

we were very good into the late 60's/early 70's. It wasn't untill the mid/late 70's that things feel completely apart.

as for the draft, I want to see lots of big young fast forwards drafted. we have several good youg D prospects already. they just need time. the forward stack is almost empty. On the D we have Kronwall-signed long term, Kindl 25, E 28, lashoff 23, Smith 22, Sproul in the next year or so, the big russian kid-if he comes over and you never know with russians, Oullett, etc.... There is lots of talent there. Other than Kronwall they all have good size and mobility. At forward, we have small speedy guys and checkers. Not a single 30 goal per year guy in the bunch. Even now, our stars are not big time goal scorers. Most are pass first playmaker types. need guys that can drive the net, crash the boards, and put the damn puck in the net.

[IllinoisRedWingsFan]

If you get rid of all the old guys who do you call up in case of injuries? Depth is importmant and having young guys on two way deals insures that you won't be dressing crap players when it matters. Much like helm played mor playoff games then regular season games, when playoffs come, or the wings are struggling for more then a couple games the best players will be on the ice, or at least should be and have been in the past.

 

Correct but there is a point where they get too over-riped in the minors and need to come up to the majors.  

 

The Winner!

 

-Not having a post-Lidstrom sucession plan in place.

 

Honorable Mentions

-Franzen vs. Hossa

-Uwe Krupp debacle.

-Not getting more Defensive Depth when you knew Lidstrom was going to retire in a few years.

-The Jimmy Carson Trade.

Border Line (I couldn't decide if they should go)

-Robert Lang trade.   There are a lot of factors that went to this one including A. The Fact he was leading the league in scoring at the time B. The 2009 Cap mess etc.

[DSM]

_{I got one.}

 

_{-Holland not stock piling All Star defensemen on the Griffins in anticipation of Lidstroms retirement.}

 

_{FIRE HIM NAOW.}

Edited by DSM, 20 February 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[e_prime]

Correct but there is a point where they get too over-riped in the minors and need to come up to the majors.  

 

The Winner!

 

-Not having a post-Lidstrom sucession plan in place.

 

Honorable Mentions

-Franzen vs. Hossa

-Uwe Krupp debacle.

-Not getting more Defensive Depth when you knew Lidstrom was going to retire in a few years.

-The Jimmy Carson Trade.

Border Line (I couldn't decide if they should go)

-Robert Lang trade.   There are a lot of factors that went to this one including A. The Fact he was leading the league in scoring at the time B. The 2009 Cap mess etc.

 

Aren't the two bolded statements the same??  So, which is it? Are you pissed or super-pissed that Holland didn't land Suter?

...because that was his plan.  As far as depth... White, Quincy, Cola... all depth defensemen... just not that #1 guy.

[DSM]

Aren't the two bolded statements the same??  So, which is it? Are you pissed or super-pissed that Holland didn't land Suter?

...because that was his plan.  As far as depth... White, Quincy, Cola... all depth defensemen... just not that #1 guy.

 

Or the classic: "He didn't do enough to land Suter"

 

Guys on here were hoping that Holland would kidnap his family and hold them ransom until he signed.

[StormJH1]

Correct but there is a point where they get too over-riped in the minors and need to come up to the majors.  

 

The Winner!

 

-Not having a post-Lidstrom sucession plan in place.

 

Honorable Mentions

-Franzen vs. Hossa

-Uwe Krupp debacle.

-Not getting more Defensive Depth when you knew Lidstrom was going to retire in a few years.

-The Jimmy Carson Trade.

Border Line (I couldn't decide if they should go)

-Robert Lang trade.   There are a lot of factors that went to this one including A. The Fact he was leading the league in scoring at the time B. The 2009 Cap mess etc.

 

You listed a lot there, and some of them go further back and are good examples.  I think the Krupp situation is a good example of a "mistake", at least in retrospect.  Of course, poaching a 6'6" right-handed defenseman from your bitter rival probably seemed like a great idea at the time.  He had missed a good amount of time previously due to injury, but predicting the whole thing with the dog sledding while he was supposed to be rehabbing (and the grievance) would have been hard to foresee.  http://blog.mlive.co...wings_no_9.html

 

But the "failing to have a Lidstrom succession plan" one, which you are far from the only person to suggest, just makes me chuckle because you CAN'T find another Lidstrom, and it's not like having 2 "good" defenseman is the same as having 1 "elite" one that logs 25 minutes a game and virtually never screws up (not to mention quarterbacking the power play).

 

Plus, unless you're talking about Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, or Zdeno Chara, it's really pretty hard to find examples of defenseman that are so impactful you could basically plug them into any team and have an instant defensive powerhouse.  No better example of that right now than what is happening with Ryan Suter in Minnesota.  I was among the people who really wanted him here, but it turns out that when your partner is Tom Gilbert instead of Shea Weber, suddenly your defense doesn't look as stellar.  

 

The problem the Wings had with replacing the defensive corps is the same they have all over the team.  Other than Suter, there really was no "free agency" fix for a top-tier defenseman in the offseason.  You could argue that Holland should have traded for one, but since the Red Wings rarely have draft picks above the 20th pick, it's not like the Red Wings have elite caliber prospects like a Hodgson or Kassian that you see swapped around for considerable value before their careers have taken off (in that case, they were swapped for each other).  If the Wings are lucky enough to develop the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg, that won't be apparent to the league until they're already proven pros, at which point we'd probably want to keep that player.

 

And even though the Wings seem to trade their 1st rounder basically every other year, it's almost a guaranteed low first rounder, so the returns are more like Kyle Quincey than Jonas Brodin or Victor Hedman.  

Nobody doubts that the defense is a problem, but to call it a "mistake" seems a bit unfair, or unrealistic.  

[T.Low]

I'm not sure I agree with the OP...that being said, I have actually wonderred if Holland would have made the deal Bowman made that put us in better position to bring home the Cup(s): Coffey, Primeau, and a pick for Shanny and Glynn.

 

Bowman was certainly ready to part with Coffey, but would Holland have been?  And Primeau could sort of be seen as a similar significant cog in the Red Wing machinery at the time as Filp is today... 

 

FWIW; Who could be seen as today's Shanahan?  A disgruntled disappointment of a power forward wanting a trade, that could be the icing on the cake for the Wings?  Hartford's Rutherford said he made the trade because "Enough was enough" and St Loui's Keenan said Shanny was half the player he thought he was.

[Number19]

I'm not sure I agree with the OP...that being said, I have actually wonderred if Holland would have made the deal Bowman made that put us in better position to bring home the Cup(s): Coffey, Primeau, and a pick for Shanny and Glynn.

 

Bowman was certainly ready to part with Coffey, but would Holland have been?  And Primeau could sort of be seen as a similar significant cog in the Red Wing machinery at the time as Filp is today... 

 

FWIW; Who could be seen as today's Shanahan?  A disgruntled disappointment of a power forward wanting a trade, that could be the icing on the cake for the Wings?  Hartford's Rutherford said he made the trade because "Enough was enough" and St Loui's Keenan said Shanny was half the player he thought he was.

Ovechkin?

Probably something like Iginla but he alone wouldn't put us over the top. Our D is in shambles.

[Dabura]

But the "failing to have a Lidstrom succession plan" one, which you are far from the only person to suggest, just makes me chuckle because you CAN'T find another Lidstrom, and it's not like having 2 "good" defenseman is the same as having 1 "elite" one that logs 25 minutes a game and virtually never screws up (not to mention quarterbacking the power play).

 

We've lost Rafalski, Stuart, Lidstrom. We've "replaced" them with, basically, spare parts. That makes Baby Jesus cry.

 

No one was expecting Lidstrom 2.0. (There is no other Nick Lidstrom. We all know this.) I don't think any of us were even truly expecting a top-15er in the league.

 

I think a lot of us were expecting much more, and/or better, than what Holland has pulled out of his magic ass hat (a rabbit with one leg and no eyes and one of its ears is Barry Trotz's missing neck).

[Nev]

I'm not sure I agree with the OP...that being said, I have actually wonderred if Holland would have made the deal Bowman made that put us in better position to bring home the Cup(s): Coffey, Primeau, and a pick for Shanny and Glynn.

 

Bowman was certainly ready to part with Coffey, but would Holland have been?  And Primeau could sort of be seen as a similar significant cog in the Red Wing machinery at the time as Filp is today... 

 

FWIW; Who could be seen as today's Shanahan?  A disgruntled disappointment of a power forward wanting a trade, that could be the icing on the cake for the Wings?  Hartford's Rutherford said he made the trade because "Enough was enough" and St Loui's Keenan said Shanny was half the player he thought he was.

 

I think so.  During those late 90s/early 2000s Western Conference wars, every off-season, and every trade deadline, it was us, Colorado and Dallas (and Philly, TO and NJ in the east) making big aggressive moves to bolster the roster.  Someone posted a list a while back of all the moves Holland has made, and there were a LOT in those days.  Some worked out  for him (Hasek), some didn't (Ranford).  OK, he's rarely moved core players, but that's not the Detroit way - thats what the likes of Toronto and Philly do every year, and look what success its brought them.

 

If the Shanny trade was Bowmans magnus opus, what was Hollands?  Kozlov and a 1st for Hasek?  A 2nd and 4th for Stuart?

[mackel]

 
Correct but there is a point where they get too over-riped in the minors and need to come up to the majors.  
 
The Winner!
 
-Not having a post-Lidstrom sucession plan in place.
 
Honorable Mentions
-Franzen vs. Hossa
-Uwe Krupp debacle.
-Not getting more Defensive Depth when you knew Lidstrom was going to retire in a few years.
-The Jimmy Carson Trade.

Border Line (I couldn't decide if they should go)
-Robert Lang trade.   There are a lot of factors that went to this one including A. The Fact he was leading the league in scoring at the time B. The 2009 Cap mess etc.

Another term for over ripe is rotten... Just sayin!