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#21 FlashyG

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:48 PM

USHL is the equal to CHL. Better than the WHL but slightly behind the other 2. Just not as many teams. USHL is very very good.

 

The USHL is nowhere near as good as the CHL. There is a debate to be had between the CHL and the NCAA, but the not when it comes to the USHL, its not even close.

 

Top American prospects generally avoid the league all together. 



#22 Richdg

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:51 PM

 

The USHL is nowhere near as good as the CHL. There is a debate to be had between the CHL and the NCAA, but the not when it comes to the USHL, its not even close.

 

Top American prospects generally avoid the league all together. 

Not true at all. You have to keep in mind that the UN Under 18 plays in the USHL, and they have maybe half of the top US prospects playing on the team. 10 years ago I would agree with you. But the USHL has done a great job overall in developing their league, and getting top US players to play there.

 

For example, using this ranking-one of many, the number of USHL players in the top 100 (16) and the number of WHL players in the top 100 (21) is very close. Now this is just 1 ranking for 1 year. Also the WHL has more teams 22 to 16.

 

http://www.nhl.com/i...&year=2013&pg=1

 

But the days of having a big difference or any difference is just about gone.


Edited by Richdg, 16 April 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#23 number9

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

Not true at all. You have to keep in mind that the UN Under 18 plays in the USHL, and they have maybe half of the top US prospects playing on the team. 10 years ago I would agree with you. But the USHL has done a great job overall in developing their league, and getting top US players to play there.
 
For example, using this ranking-one of many, the number of USHL players in the top 100 (16) and the number of WHL players in the top 100 (21) is very close. Now this is just 1 ranking for 1 year. Also the WHL has more teams 22 to 16.
 
http://www.nhl.com/i...&year=2013&pg=1
 
But the days of having a big difference or any difference is just about gone.


Haha good joke!

#24 Richdg

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

Haha good joke!

The intelligence of your posts is awe inspiring. are you a twin?



#25 FlashyG

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:38 PM

Not true at all. You have to keep in mind that the UN Under 18 plays in the USHL, and they have maybe half of the top US prospects playing on the team. 10 years ago I would agree with you. But the USHL has done a great job overall in developing their league, and getting top US players to play there.

 

For example, using this ranking-one of many, the number of USHL players in the top 100 (16) and the number of WHL players in the top 100 (21) is very close. Now this is just 1 ranking for 1 year. Also the WHL has more teams 22 to 16.

 

http://www.nhl.com/i...&year=2013&pg=1

 

But the days of having a big difference or any difference is just about gone.

 

The US under 18 team also plays a bunch of games against national squads and vs NCAA division I and II teams.

 

They aren't undefeated vs the USHL, but they are clearly dominant vs them. They are also not playing for the US Under 18 team because they see the USHL as a development league that will fast track them to the NHL.

 

The USHL isn't incapable of developing players into elite talents, but those that are already elite at young ages will go to the CHL or the US Development program, and generally avoid the USHL because its an inferior league.



#26 RedWingCraig

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:28 PM

USHL is the equal to CHL. Better than the WHL but slightly behind the other 2. Just not as many teams. USHL is very very good.

It is not even close to any league in the CHL



Not true at all. You have to keep in mind that the UN Under 18 plays in the USHL, and they have maybe half of the top US prospects playing on the team. 10 years ago I would agree with you. But the USHL has done a great job overall in developing their league, and getting top US players to play there.

 

For example, using this ranking-one of many, the number of USHL players in the top 100 (16) and the number of WHL players in the top 100 (21) is very close. Now this is just 1 ranking for 1 year. Also the WHL has more teams 22 to 16.

 

http://www.nhl.com/i...&year=2013&pg=1

 

But the days of having a big difference or any difference is just about gone.

If they're in the USHL it's because they can't get into the CHL...you ask any player which league they'd rather play in, 99.9% would say the CHL



#27 Konnan511

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:15 PM

It is not even close to any league in the CHL


If they're in the USHL it's because they can't get into the CHL...you ask any player which league they'd rather play in, 99.9% would say the CHL

Or if you want to play college hockey you can't have played in the CHL. College kids go the USHL route.
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#28 Richdg

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

Again, of the top 100 skaters for this years draft, 16 are from the USHL, or 1 per team. Of the same list, 21 are from the WHL, or just under 1 per team. I realize that most hockey fans have the Canada thing going on, but the numbers do not support your beliefs.

Now for the top 10-20 players each year, the ones that will make the NHL in 1-2 years, they go to the CHL because of the stipind and the history. But those that are going to take longer 3-5 years to make the NHL and want to play college hockey, they go to the USHL and protect their eligability. Now, like I said, 10 years ago there was in fact a huge difference between the USHL and the CHL. But that isn't the case anymore. yes there are far more teams in the CHL. So they have more players and the law of averages is on the CHL's side. But if you look at the numbers of top rated prospects per team, it is very close/the same. Like I said, this year the USHL has more top 100 propsects per team than the WHL does.



#29 number9

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

Again, of the top 100 skaters for this years draft, 16 are from the USHL, or 1 per team. Of the same list, 21 are from the WHL, or just under 1 per team. I realize that most hockey fans have the Canada thing going on, but the numbers do not support your beliefs.
Now for the top 10-20 players each year, the ones that will make the NHL in 1-2 years, they go to the CHL because of the stipind and the history. But those that are going to take longer 3-5 years to make the NHL and want to play college hockey, they go to the USHL and protect their eligability. Now, like I said, 10 years ago there was in fact a huge difference between the USHL and the CHL. But that isn't the case anymore. yes there are far more teams in the CHL. So they have more players and the law of averages is on the CHL's side. But if you look at the numbers of top rated prospects per team, it is very close/the same. Like I said, this year the USHL has more top 100 propsects per team than the WHL does.

The ushl would compare nicely to the chl if all the chlers tied their skates together and smoked crack before the game

In other news my beer league team just beat an AHL team, so I'd say that's a good comparison as well

Edited by number9, 21 April 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#30 FlashyG

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:49 PM

Again, of the top 100 skaters for this years draft, 16 are from the USHL, or 1 per team. Of the same list, 21 are from the WHL, or just under 1 per team. I realize that most hockey fans have the Canada thing going on, but the numbers do not support your beliefs.

Now for the top 10-20 players each year, the ones that will make the NHL in 1-2 years, they go to the CHL because of the stipind and the history. But those that are going to take longer 3-5 years to make the NHL and want to play college hockey, they go to the USHL and protect their eligability. Now, like I said, 10 years ago there was in fact a huge difference between the USHL and the CHL. But that isn't the case anymore. yes there are far more teams in the CHL. So they have more players and the law of averages is on the CHL's side. But if you look at the numbers of top rated prospects per team, it is very close/the same. Like I said, this year the USHL has more top 100 propsects per team than the WHL does.

 

This is either intentionally or unintentionally misleading.

 

While its true that 27 of the top 200 from this upcoming draft are currently playing in the USHL only 3 of those 27 players haven't committed to an NCAA program already, Also of those 3 one is now playing in the CHL. So really there are only 2 USHL players in that list and they are underage and will likely commit to an NCAA program next year. The elite players in the USHL aren't in the league to develop, they are there only because they can't play in the CHL and keep their NCAA eligibility.

 

Its also misleading because of those 27, only 13 are actually playing for a USHL team while the others are playing part time in the league as part of the National Development program.

 

There is an argument to be made for the NCAA being a better development route than the CHL (although its probably a losing argument). The USHL on the other hand isn't even in the conversation.



#31 Richdg

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:19 AM

You are trying to create a difference when there isn't one. So what if guys are committed to go play in college? How does that reduce or enhance their talent? it doesn't. Now, if they could play in the CHL and still play in the NCAA, would there be a mad rush to leave the USHL? maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

There is very much a cultural difference between the US and Canada when it comes to college sports. College athletics are huge here and not so much in Canada. That plays a huge role here. But again, that isn't the point. The point is the talent level.

Now we cana rgue this untill the cows come home, which is fine. But it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. The USHL has done a GREAT job improving their league and is on par with the CHL as a whole. Yes the OHL and QMJHL still is ahead. It would be great to see the champs all play an end of season tourny vs each other.

 

This just in: Gordie Howe loves the USHL! LOL

 

BTW, the US U-18 team had a very similier winning % vs the USHL teams and the NCAA teams that they played this year. Better vs the USHL, but it includes DIII colleges as well.



Back to big Mike. He is going to have a big running mate at WMU next year and hopefully a future red Wings as well. Mike McCarron 6-5/227 RW from Detroit is going there. I hope Murry puts them together on the same forward line!



#32 FlashyG

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:04 PM

You are trying to create a difference when there isn't one. So what if guys are committed to go play in college? How does that reduce or enhance their talent? it doesn't. Now, if they could play in the CHL and still play in the NCAA, would there be a mad rush to leave the USHL? maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

There is very much a cultural difference between the US and Canada when it comes to college sports. College athletics are huge here and not so much in Canada. That plays a huge role here. But again, that isn't the point. The point is the talent level.

Now we cana rgue this untill the cows come home, which is fine. But it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. The USHL has done a GREAT job improving their league and is on par with the CHL as a whole. Yes the OHL and QMJHL still is ahead. It would be great to see the champs all play an end of season tourny vs each other.

 

This just in: Gordie Howe loves the USHL! LOL

 

BTW, the US U-18 team had a very similier winning % vs the USHL teams and the NCAA teams that they played this year. Better vs the USHL, but it includes DIII colleges as well.



Back to big Mike. He is going to have a big running mate at WMU next year and hopefully a future red Wings as well. Mike McCarron 6-5/227 RW from Detroit is going there. I hope Murry puts them together on the same forward line!

 

It doesn't reduce their talent level, I was just pointing out that the only reason there is any reputable talent in the USHL is because they get guys looking to play NCAA hockey for the short period of time before they can play in a real league.

 

Gordie Howe may love the USHL, but he wouldn't even begin to argue its on par with the CHL. And if those players going to the NCAA could play in the CHL before going to college, close to 100% of them would because the level of play in the CHL is light years ahead of the USHL.

 

The CHL is the top development league in the world, followed closely by the NCAA, then you'd have a bunch of European junior leagues and then the USHL.

 

Who is the best player in the NHL who played all his development years in the USHL? 



#33 Richdg

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:35 PM

Gordie Howe

 

But again you are making an argument based on the past. yes the CHL for many many years was the best in the world. It also happens to be the biggest-75 teams. That is 5 times the size of the USHL. Law of averages alone says they will produce 5 times as many players. It does not mean from top to bottom the 3 CHL leagues are better than the USHL top to bottom. Again, those that follow and working the draft for a living have MORE USHL players per team in the top 100 than WHL teams have. That is the only fact we have in play. Everything else is opinion. Untill they start playing each other, on a regular basis, that is all it will ever be.


Edited by Richdg, 24 April 2013 - 01:42 PM.


#34 FlashyG

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

Gordie Howe
 
But again you are making an argument based on the past. yes the CHL for many many years was the best in the world. It also happens to be the biggest-75 teams. That is 5 times the size of the USHL. Law of averages alone says they will produce 5 times as many players. It does not mean from top to bottom the 3 CHL leagues are better than the USHL top to bottom. Again, those that follow and working the draft for a living have MORE USHL players per team in the top 100 than WHL teams have. That is the only fact we have in play. Everything else is opinion. Untill they start playing each other, on a regular basis, that is all it will ever be.

 
Howe played 1 year there as a 17 year old because he wasn't old enough to play in the NHL. He didn't develop there, in fact I can't think of anyone who did and went on to an Elite NHL career.

The CHL is still the best in the world, the only competition to it is the NCAA. The players being drafted out of the USHL are only being drafted because they are going to move on to the NCAA. If a player indicates he's going to stay in the USHL for his development years he will either plummet in the draft or will not be selected at all. You're not arguing based on fact as long as you continue to count players moving on to the NCAA as USHL players. If they could commit to university programs a year earlier they wouldn't even consider playing in the USHL, its a stop-over league not a developmental one.

I think you might be the only person on the planet trying to make an argument that the USHL is anything close to the CHL as far as a developmental league.

Edited by FlashyG, 24 April 2013 - 02:29 PM.


#35 number9

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:40 AM

 
Howe played 1 year there as a 17 year old because he wasn't old enough to play in the NHL. He didn't develop there, in fact I can't think of anyone who did and went on to an Elite NHL career.

The CHL is still the best in the world, the only competition to it is the NCAA. The players being drafted out of the USHL are only being drafted because they are going to move on to the NCAA. If a player indicates he's going to stay in the USHL for his development years he will either plummet in the draft or will not be selected at all. You're not arguing based on fact as long as you continue to count players moving on to the NCAA as USHL players. If they could commit to university programs a year earlier they wouldn't even consider playing in the USHL, its a stop-over league not a developmental one.

I think you might be the only person on the planet trying to make an argument that the USHL is anything close to the CHL as far as a developmental league.

 

That should about sum it up.

 

When it comes to Big Mike, he appears like a Carkner to me. Big mean D-man on wheels. Would be a fantastic bottom pairing guy. Can't see him making a transition to forward. Just cause he has the speed doesn't mean he has the skill set. If he was a forward, I'd try to convince him to play D. Much like Ericsson.



#36 LeftWinger

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

If he is going to be an enforcer, then he is going to have to lose the visor...unless he is wearing it for an injury temporarily.  The NHL will be all over him for starting a fight with a visor on and that equals extra penalties....

 

Didn't know that McCarron committed to WMU...Hot Damn! If the Wings are fortunate enough to snag this guy in the 2nd round, that would be two HUGE prospects to have in the wings! (Pun intended)


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#37 LeftWinger

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:40 PM

 

It doesn't reduce their talent level, I was just pointing out that the only reason there is any reputable talent in the USHL is because they get guys looking to play NCAA hockey for the short period of time before they can play in a real league.

 

Gordie Howe may love the USHL, but he wouldn't even begin to argue its on par with the CHL. And if those players going to the NCAA could play in the CHL before going to college, close to 100% of them would because the level of play in the CHL is light years ahead of the USHL.

 

The CHL is the top development league in the world, followed closely by the NCAA, then you'd have a bunch of European junior leagues and then the USHL.

 

Who is the best player in the NHL who played all his development years in the USHL? 

 

Oh, Hmmmm..... Phil Housley, Gary Suter, Erik Cole, Ryan Malone, Rostislav Klesa, Patrick Sharp, Tim Jackman, Tom Gilbert, Matt Greene, Keith Ballard, Joe Pavelski, Drew Miller, David Backes, Matt Carle, Tomas Vanek, Alex Goligoski, Jared Boll, Abdelkader,  Paul Stastny, TJ Oshie, Jeff Petry, Trevor Lewis, Kyle Okposo, Craig Smith, Jared Tinordi....just to name a few legit NHLr's....and I left out a lot other that are playing in the NHL right now as well....but these are some of the big names...

 

 

I know you said ALL his development years, but it has already been established that the USHL is a stepping to stone to most likely a NCAA career before the NHL...but some of those I listed also moved to the CHL as well before the NHL...


Edited by LeftWinger, 01 May 2013 - 09:44 PM.

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#38 FlashyG

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:05 PM

 

Oh, Hmmmm..... Phil Housley, Gary Suter, Erik Cole, Ryan Malone, Rostislav Klesa, Patrick Sharp, Tim Jackman, Tom Gilbert, Matt Greene, Keith Ballard, Joe Pavelski, Drew Miller, David Backes, Matt Carle, Tomas Vanek, Alex Goligoski, Jared Boll, Abdelkader,  Paul Stastny, TJ Oshie, Jeff Petry, Trevor Lewis, Kyle Okposo, Craig Smith, Jared Tinordi....just to name a few legit NHLr's....and I left out a lot other that are playing in the NHL right now as well....but these are some of the big names...

 

 

I know you said ALL his development years, but it has already been established that the USHL is a stepping to stone to most likely a NCAA career before the NHL...but some of those I listed also moved to the CHL as well before the NHL...

 

How many of those guys would have been in the USHL if they could have joined an NCAA team or in some of the older guys on the list cases the NHL a year earlier.

 

I think you'll find the answer is 0.

 

I'm not saying no NHLer's ever played in the USHL, I'm saying that they stopped over there because they needed somewhere to play before joining the NCAA.

 

I can't think of a single player who played a few years in the USHL then jumped straight to the NHL. 



#39 ben_usmc

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:48 PM

edited 

 


Edited by ben_usmc, 20 May 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#40 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

USHL is the equal to CHL. Better than the WHL but slightly behind the other 2. Just not as many teams. USHL is very very good.

 

USHL is nowhere near the WHL.

 

Sorry.







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