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DetroitRedWings1993

Holland looking around

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Stop times I can understand that feeling. But I grew up in the 1970's and remember the Dead Wings all to well. Watching us play now is like watching a close family member slowly die. That does hurt and upset me, as it should all RW fans.

I find it hard to believe that someone who plays as much NHL 13 as you do grew up in the 1970s

DSM likes this

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People were saying the same things back in 96.

Nyquist hasn't had much of an opportunity to show what he can do. He has only played 12:22 in 2 games this yr., 10:35 in 18 games last year and 8:51 in 4 playoff games last year. His Points Per Minute played last year are identical to Datsyuk's in his rookie yr and Datsyuk was older than Nyquist is now. Datsyuk scored a point every 27.2 minutes played and Nyquist scored one every 27.1 mins played (which is actually better than O'Reilly who scored a point every 28.7 mins scored last year). When you play more usually scoring goes up at higher rate than mins played because of confidence, momentum and being a more important part of the team.

I watched Nyquist a lot with the Griffs and he will be a star and maybe even a great player if he works as hard as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did at their deficiencies. When the Griffs played the Barons the Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan line totally shut down the Barons NHL line of Eberle, Hall, and Paajaarvi as well as Justin Schultz while being dangerous offensively. They totally dominated them. Schultz did manage a PP goal late in the game with Eberle getting an assist but the score was already 5-1 and Nyquist and Tatar weren't on the ice.

.

BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.

I find it hard to believe that someone who plays as much NHL 13 as you do grew up in the 1970s

nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....

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BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.

nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....

That was a typo I meant 06. In 96 the Wings were extremely talented but playoff chokers and Yzerman wasn't a very good leader according to the glass is half empty , grass is greener on the other side, s*** colored glasses wearing fans like you.

And I wasn't talking about AHL points at all, I was talking only NHL points in that comment and how he played against star NHLers when he was pitted against them for 20 mins. I'll tell you right now the Tatar , Nyquist and Sheahan line dominated Eberle, Hall and Paajaarvi line as well as Schultz. Anyone who doesn't believe me the game is archived at RedWings Live. Check it out.

Edited by Johnz96

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That was a typo I meant 06. In 96 the Wings were extremely talented but playoff chokers and Yzerman wasn't a very good leader according to the glass is half empty , grass is greener on the other side, s*** colored glasses wearing fans like you.

And I wasn't talking about AHL points at all, I was talking only NHL points in that comment and how he played against star NHLers when he was pitted against them for 20 mins. I'll tell you right now the Tatar , Nyquist and Sheahan line dominated Eberle, Hall and Paajaarvi line as well as Schultz. Anyone who doesn't believe me the game is archived at RedWings Live. Check it out.

rgr. see typos and brain farts happen! lol. In 06 yes there was some worry heading into the season. But we as a team were still 10-12 legit stars deep. Those stars were already on the roster and had proven themselves. That is not the case now.

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rgr. see typos and brain farts happen! lol. In 06 yes there was some worry heading into the season. But we as a team were still 10-12 legit stars deep. Those stars were already on the roster and had proven themselves. That is not the case now.

10-12 "legit stars" deep?

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...

I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is looking at Babchuk.

I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.

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I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team? He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside. He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason. He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty. Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).

Who else might Holland target? Who fits the secondary scoring help?

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

- Visnovsky (36)

- Hainsey (31)

- Streit (35)

- Regehr (32)

- Whitney (30)

- Scuderi (34)

- Leopold (32)

- Babchuk (28)

- Douglas Murray (32)

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk. What do you all think?

Forwards:

- Horton

- Clowe

- Weiss

- Clarkson

- Raymond

- Boyes

I would personally love Horton or Weiss for secondary scoring. Horton has not fit in well with Boston and I believe would thrive on a second line here with Datsyuk feeding him. I've always liked Weiss, but i'm not sure how he'd fit here/if he would.

What do you think?

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I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team? He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside. He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason. He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty. Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).

Who else might Holland target? Who fits the secondary scoring help?

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

- Visnovsky (36)

- Hainsey (31)

- Streit (35)

- Regehr (32)

- Whitney (30)

- Scuderi (34)

- Leopold (32)

- Babchuk (28)

- Douglas Murray (32)

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk. What do you all think?

Forwards:

- Horton

- Clowe

- Weiss

- Clarkson

- Raymond

- Boyes

I would personally love Horton or Weiss for secondary scoring. Horton has not fit in well with Boston and I believe would thrive on a second line here with Datsyuk feeding him. I've always liked Weiss, but i'm not sure how he'd fit here/if he would.

What do you think?

i agree on Horton for sure would be great with Pavs Weiss is a great player question is where would he fit better on a 3rd line or 2nd

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I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team? He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside. He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason. He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty. Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).

Who else might Holland target? Who fits the secondary scoring help?

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

- Visnovsky (36)

- Hainsey (31)

- Streit (35)

- Regehr (32)

- Whitney (30)

- Scuderi (34)

- Leopold (32)

- Babchuk (28)

- Douglas Murray (32)

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk. What do you all think?

Streit is probably the best of the bunch, but IIRC the Islanders are pretty keen on getting him re-signed and probably won't deal him.

Whitney has lost a huge step due to injuries and probably won't be as effective as the Red Wings would like him to be.

I personally like Regehr and Murray out of the bunch, but I can see Holland making a pitch for all of those guys depending on where their teams (and the Red Wings are at come April 3rd.

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Streit is probably the best of the bunch, but IIRC the Islanders are pretty keen on getting him re-signed and probably won't deal him.

Whitney has lost a huge step due to injuries and probably won't be as effective as the Red Wings would like him to be.

I personally like Regehr and Murray out of the bunch, but I can see Holland making a pitch for all of those guys depending on where their teams (and the Red Wings are at come April 3rd.

Yeah I like Murray and Regehr, too. I think Murray would fit in nicely with either Kronwall or Ericsson, being a Swede and all. He'd help out the defensive side of things nicely.

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I hope Kenny avoids trading like the plague unless it is for a cornerstone piece for the future. Swapping garbage isn't going to do much. We have enough secondary dmen - we don't need another guy out there looking for someone else to step up and lead. We don't need another forward on the wrong age of the 30 at the cost of our young prospects.

I'd think Kenny is looking for a young dman like Myers, Gormley, Bogo, Larsson etc. that is at lower value right now than they could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come. He doesn't trade often, so the ones he does make should at least have a long lasting impact. Or would that make too much sense?

Edited by dirtydangles

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10-12 "legit stars" deep?

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...

I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.

Back in 06 glass is half empty, grass is greener, s*** colored glasses wearing fans argued that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are talented but they're no Yzerman and Fedorov and that the team needs to make serious changes if it wants to continue to chalenge for a Cup.

Edited by Johnz96

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I hope Kenny avoids trading like the plague unless it is for a cornerstone piece for the future. Swapping garbage isn't going to do much. We have enough secondary dmen - we don't need another guy out there looking for someone else to step up and lead. We don't need another forward on the wrong age of the 30 at the cost of our young prospects.

I'd think Kenny is looking for a young dman like Myers, Gormley, Bogo, Larsson etc. that is at lower value right now than they could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come. He doesn't trade often, so the ones he does make should at least have a long lasting impact. Or would that make too much sense?

If you look at all of the trades Holland has ever made, he has rarely ever dealt any real key prospects.

When aqcuiring a roster player, Hollands playbook most always involves trading:

-Middle of the road regular players (Jamie Pushor, Anders Eriksson, Kevin Hodson, Yan Golubovsky, Sean Avery, Maxim Kuznetsov, and Jason Williams)

-AHL prospects that don't seem to be in the Red Wings future plans (Philippe Audet, Yuri Butsayev and Sebastion Piche)

-Or draft picks (six 1st rounders, five 2nd, rounders, three 3rd rounders, six 4th rounders and one 6th rounder).

In 15+ years as GM, Holland has only ever traded three prospects, in order to aqcuire a roster player:

-Petr Sykora (NOT the one that won a cup with NJ in 2003, but the one that played 10 games with Washington in 05/06)

-Tomas Fleischmann

-Shawn Matthias

He has also only ever traded one "core" type player in 15+ years, in order to acquire another roster player:

-Slava Kozlov

Looking over Hollands trade playbook, it's doubtful that he is shopping for young expensive dmen that "could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come".

Edited by DSM

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Back in 06 glass is half empty, grass is greener, s*** colored glasses wearing fans argued that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are talented but they're no Yzerman and Fedorov and that the team needs to make serious changes if it wants to continue to chalenge for a Cup.

Trust me, I was on here then. It was entertaining. NHL06 GM's were proposing ridiculous trades on a daily basis.

"I traded Andreas Lilja, Kirk Maltby and Kris Draper for Sidney Crosby. You guys think that Holland may try this?"

or the crazy "sign and trades' with UFA Manny Legace, who had made it clear he didn't want to come back to the Wings.

"Guys, how about they resign Legace and then trade him? I traded him for Ovechkin last night and IT WORKED! Get on the phone Holland..."

:bye:

Edited by DSM

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BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.

nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....

Kindl for Stamkos

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If you look at all of the trades Holland has ever made, he has rarely ever dealt any real key prospects.

When aqcuiring a roster player, Hollands playbook most always involves trading:

-Middle of the road regular players (Jamie Pushor, Anders Eriksson, Kevin Hodson, Yan Golubovsky, Sean Avery, Maxim Kuznetsov, and Jason Williams)

-AHL prospects that don't seem to be in the Red Wings future plans (Philippe Audet, Yuri Butsayev and Sebastion Piche)

-Or draft picks (six 1st rounders, five 2nd, rounders, three 3rd rounders, six 4th rounders and one 6th rounder).

In 15+ years as GM, Holland has only ever traded three prospects, in order to aqcuire a roster player:

-Petr Sykora (NOT the one that won a cup with NJ in 2003, but the one that played 10 games with Washington in 05/06)

-Tomas Fleischmann

-Shawn Matthias

He has also only ever traded one "core" type player in 15+ years, in order to acquire another roster player:

-Slava Kozlov

Looking over Hollands trade playbook, it's doubtful that he is shopping for young expensive dmen that "could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come".

Prems for Shanny. That was a big one. But the NHL was also different then than it is now. There was always teams looking to dump salary and we had no problem picking it up. Chelios for Eriksson was also a pretty big trade.

But again, the NHL has changed, so Holland is going to have to change as well. Will he? We will see.

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Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down. Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control. We were on Parise's short list, I believe. I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota. I was dumbstruck. All that time and effort wasted. Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again. Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right. I've never heard it put so perfectly. That's exactly how I feel. But, I'll add a little. It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.

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Prems for Shanny. That was a big one. But the NHL was also different then than it is now. There was always teams looking to dump salary and we had no problem picking it up. Chelios for Eriksson was also a pretty big trade.

But again, the NHL has changed, so Holland is going to have to change as well. Will he? We will see.

The Shanahan trade was when Jimmy D was still GM. Holland took over the next season.

The Chelios trade was a big trade, but was also similar to trades for Lang and Schneider in where draft picks were the biggest part. Eriksson wasn't really part of the Red Wings core. He was a #4/5 dman on that team. The more valuable part of that deal for Chicago was the 2 first round round picks that came along with Eriksson.

Unless this team really sinks, I doubt Holland re-writes his team building playbook.

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10-12 "legit stars" deep?

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...

I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.

Yes 10-12: Z, dat, hommer, Nicky, Cheli, hasek, Land, sammy was still good then, Draper, maltby, Bert (late pickup), etc.... By that time Yzerman was done and wasn't a big time loss. Shanny was at the time but was dropping off even with the good goal totals. was out of the NHL 3 years later..... So yes we were still a loaded team. But that also shows the issues we are having. all but 4 of those guys are gone, and the guys that have replaced them are not half as good.Heck that roster today might very well beat our current roster....Even with half of those guys in their 40's.......

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Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down. Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control. We were on Parise's short list, I believe. I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota. I was dumbstruck. All that time and effort wasted. Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again. Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right. I've never heard it put so perfectly. That's exactly how I feel. But, I'll add a little. It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.

Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

Time to get over it...

Parise tearing it up? Zetterberg and Datsyuk have much lower cap hits and are arguably playing better this season.

Yes 10-12: Z, dat, hommer, Nicky, Cheli, hasek, Land, sammy was still good then, Draper, maltby, Bert (late pickup), etc.... By that time Yzerman was done and wasn't a big time loss. Shanny was at the time but was dropping off even with the good goal totals. was out of the NHL 3 years later..... So yes we were still a loaded team. But that also shows the issues we are having. all but 4 of those guys are gone, and the guys that have replaced them are not half as good.Heck that roster today might very well beat our current roster....Even with half of those guys in their 40's.......

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.

Edited by DSM

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The Shanahan trade was when Jimmy D was still GM. Holland took over the next season.

The Chelios trade was a big trade, but was also similar to trades for Lang and Schneider in where draft picks were the biggest part. Eriksson wasn't really part of the Red Wings core. He was a #4/5 dman on that team. The more valuable part of that deal for Chicago was the 2 first round round picks that came along with Eriksson.

Unless this team really sinks, I doubt Holland re-writes his team building playbook.

Yes jimmy was still in charge, but Holland was very much running/learning to run the team. To think that Holland had nothing to do with any of it is silly. Just as today Nill is very much involved. But if you want to split hairs, then so be it.

Eriksson was the guy that Chicago wanted. It was discussed at length on every talk radio show in Michigan and Chicago. Everyone thought he was going to be a long time superstar. It was after the trade that his nickname "Bubblebutt" came out.

Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

Time to get over it...

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.

Homer wasn't a star? OMG..... he was the best front of net player ever in the game. 30 goals a year all from within 10 ft. Give me 4 of those guys right now today! Draper and Maltby were both better than any forwards not named Zetterberg and datsyuk that we have on our roster today.

Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down. Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control. We were on Parise's short list, I believe. I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota. I was dumbstruck. All that time and effort wasted. Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again. Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right. I've never heard it put so perfectly. That's exactly how I feel. But, I'll add a little. It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.

Its not fatal. But it is a long term thing that will take time to recover. Heck i had to root for the wings for 12 + years before they won a PO series. Don't get me started on the Tigers............ 84 untill...... is a long time between WS wins....... At least they are in teh fight atm, which is a major improvement.

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Yes jimmy was still in charge, but Holland was very much running/learning to run the team. To think that Holland had nothing to do with any of it is silly. Just as today Nill is very much involved. But if you want to split hairs, then so be it.

Eriksson was the guy that Chicago wanted. It was discussed at length on every talk radio show in Michigan and Chicago. Everyone thought he was going to be a long time superstar. It was after the trade that his nickname "Bubblebutt" came out.

Homer wasn't a star? OMG..... he was the best front of net player ever in the game. 30 goals a year all from within 10 ft. Give me 4 of those guys right now today! Draper and Maltby were both better than any forwards not named Zetterberg and datsyuk that we have on our roster today.

Who are you to know who was or wasn't running the team at that point? Is that you Mike Illitch?

Holmstrom was a great player yes, but I'm not really sure he can be labeled a "star". Same goes for Draper and Maltby.

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Who are you to know who was or wasn't running the team at that point? Is that you Mike Illitch?

Holmstrom was a great player yes, but I'm not really sure he can be labeled a "star". Same goes for Draper and Maltby.

It was made very clear by the media that Jimmy D was transfering all the power to Holland for a couple of years before Holland became GM. Now if the media was wrong-wouldn't be the first time, I could be. But that was the public image being put out there. In fact Holland was the one out doing the scouting and negotiating with the Whalers-again per the media. It may have been at Jimmy D's direction, that is true. Bowman was also heavily involved in this. After the SC sweep he called for a guy like Shanny to be picked up.

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Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

Time to get over it...

Parise tearing it up? Zetterberg and Datsyuk have much lower cap hits and are arguably playing better this season.

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.

Signing Suter and Parise to those riDICKulous contracts is probably the biggest mistake the Wild ever made.

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