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Holland looking around

rumor speculation

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#21 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

Alright, let's not throw our heads in the dirt and pretend our current roster is good enough to contend.  I've seen Nyquist play, and I don't understand the hype.  He just doesn't make much of an impact outside of a shot on goal here and there.  Tatar has shown a little the past few games, but overall, I'm not overly-impressed.  Andersson is probably a grinder, at best.  The cream of our prospect crop, which I consider to be Calle Jarnkrok, Teemu Pulkinnen, and Ryan Sproul, are multiple years away from being NHL-ready.  We lack the big-name prospects needed for a simple "re-tool" because we've gone so long without the draft picks required to draft "can't miss" talent.  This team still has talent, but if we want to avoid another long period of struggling, we need to start drafting at or near the top of the order, and that means selling off big pieces when the time comes.  Not now, and maybe not even in 2 or 3 years, but the time for a rebuild is coming whether we like it or not, and we need to prepare for it.  We're very spoiled and we can't stay in "win-now-or-else" mode forever.


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#22 Johnz96

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

Alright, let's not throw our heads in the dirt and pretend our current roster is good enough to contend.  I've seen Nyquist play, and I don't understand the hype.  He just doesn't make much of an impact outside of a shot on goal here and there.  Tatar has shown a little the past few games, but overall, I'm not overly-impressed.  Andersson is probably a grinder, at best.  The cream of our prospect crop, which I consider to be Calle Jarnkrok, Teemu Pulkinnen, and Ryan Sproul, are multiple years away from being NHL-ready.  We lack the big-name prospects needed for a simple "re-tool" because we've gone so long without the draft picks required to draft "can't miss" talent.  This team still has talent, but if we want to avoid another long period of struggling, we need to start drafting at or near the top of the order, and that means selling off big pieces when the time comes.  Not now, and maybe not even in 2 or 3 years, but the time for a rebuild is coming whether we like it or not, and we need to prepare for it.  We're very spoiled and we can't stay in "win-now-or-else" mode forever.

People were saying the same things back in 06.
Nyquist hasn't had much of an opportunity to show what he can do. He has only played 12:22 in 2 games this yr., 10:35 in 18 games last year and 8:51 in 4 playoff games last year. His Points Per Minute played last year are identical to Datsyuk's  in his rookie yr and Datsyuk was older than Nyquist is now. Datsyuk scored a point every 27.2 minutes played and Nyquist scored one every 27.1 mins played (which is actually better than O'Reilly  who scored a point every 28.7 mins scored last year). When you play more usually scoring goes up at higher rate than mins played because of confidence, momentum and being a more important part of the team.

I watched Nyquist a lot with the Griffs and he will be a star and maybe even a great player if he works as hard as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did at their deficiencies. When the Griffs played the Barons the Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan line totally shut down the Barons NHL line of Eberle, Hall, and Paajaarvi as well as Justin Schultz while being dangerous offensively. They totally dominated them. Schultz did manage a PP goal late in the game with Eberle getting an assist but the score was already 5-1 and Nyquist and Tatar weren't on the ice.
.


Edited by Johnz96, 21 February 2013 - 06:54 PM.


#23 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

I say no to Bouw....if we are going to get rid of a high end prospect and two roster players, I think we should see what Winnipeg would want for Bogosian... I think he would be better than Bouwmeester. But as long as it's Quincey going back and not Smith or any other prospect D man.

 

Also, I think since he has had more time to impress and has taken advantage of that time, unfortunately the likes of Tatar would be the one that teams would inquire about...Nyquist hasn't been given the same opportunity to show his wares, so to say.

 

If we are trading Tatar, it better not be for Bouwmeester... I wouldn't mind seeing Holland get TWO defensemen...Bogosian and Visnovsky...

 

anyone know why Bogo has only played in 2 games?


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#24 arag

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:18 PM

I say no to Bouw....if we are going to get rid of a high end prospect and two roster players, I think we should see what Winnipeg would want for Bogosian... I think he would be better than Bouwmeester. But as long as it's Quincey going back and not Smith or any other prospect D man.

Also, I think since he has had more time to impress and has taken advantage of that time, unfortunately the likes of Tatar would be the one that teams would inquire about...Nyquist hasn't been given the same opportunity to show his wares, so to say.

If we are trading Tatar, it better not be for Bouwmeester... I wouldn't mind seeing Holland get TWO defensemen...Bogosian and Visnovsky...

anyone know why Bogo has only played in 2 games?

He was just reactivated from IR


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#25 Richdg

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

The team wasn't exactly loaded up front, a lot of players ended up stepping up to fill the void.

 

Rafalski and Hossa were added by that "key vet here and there approach" that you lamented earlier.

 

How is this team not loaded? They have plenty of depth, which has kept them afloat as injuries have piled up. They also have a lot of good young talent that is showing that they are ready to make a contribution as well. There is absolutely no reason for a "rebuild".

 

I apologize if you are a long time fan. No offense, it just doesn't seem like it....



 

Probably NHL13.

Stop times I can understand that feeling. But I grew up in the 1970's and remember the Dead Wings all to well. Watching us play now is like watching a close family member slowly die. That does hurt and upset me, as it should all RW fans.



#26 number9

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

Stop times I can understand that feeling. But I grew up in the 1970's and remember the Dead Wings all to well. Watching us play now is like watching a close family member slowly die. That does hurt and upset me, as it should all RW fans.


I find it hard to believe that someone who plays as much NHL 13 as you do grew up in the 1970s


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#27 Richdg

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:15 PM

People were saying the same things back in 96.
Nyquist hasn't had much of an opportunity to show what he can do. He has only played 12:22 in 2 games this yr., 10:35 in 18 games last year and 8:51 in 4 playoff games last year. His Points Per Minute played last year are identical to Datsyuk's  in his rookie yr and Datsyuk was older than Nyquist is now. Datsyuk scored a point every 27.2 minutes played and Nyquist scored one every 27.1 mins played (which is actually better than O'Reilly  who scored a point every 28.7 mins scored last year). When you play more usually scoring goes up at higher rate than mins played because of confidence, momentum and being a more important part of the team.

I watched Nyquist a lot with the Griffs and he will be a star and maybe even a great player if he works as hard as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did at their deficiencies. When the Griffs played the Barons the Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan line totally shut down the Barons NHL line of Eberle, Hall, and Paajaarvi as well as Justin Schultz while being dangerous offensively. They totally dominated them. Schultz did manage a PP goal late in the game with Eberle getting an assist but the score was already 5-1 and Nyquist and Tatar weren't on the ice.
.

BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.




I find it hard to believe that someone who plays as much NHL 13 as you do grew up in the 1970s

nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....



#28 Dominator2005

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:59 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is looking at Babchuk.
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#29 Johnz96

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:15 AM

BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.



nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....

That was a typo I meant 06. In 96  the Wings were extremely talented but playoff chokers and Yzerman wasn't a very good leader according to the glass is half empty , grass is greener on the other side, s*** colored glasses wearing fans like you.

And I wasn't talking about AHL points at all, I was talking only NHL points in that comment and how he played against star NHLers when he was pitted against them for 20 mins. I'll tell you right now the Tatar , Nyquist and Sheahan line dominated Eberle, Hall and Paajaarvi line as well as Schultz. Anyone who doesn't believe me the game is archived at RedWings Live. Check it out.


Edited by Johnz96, 20 February 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#30 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:35 AM

That was a typo I meant 06. In 96  the Wings were extremely talented but playoff chokers and Yzerman wasn't a very good leader according to the glass is half empty , grass is greener on the other side, s*** colored glasses wearing fans like you.

And I wasn't talking about AHL points at all, I was talking only NHL points in that comment and how he played against star NHLers when he was pitted against them for 20 mins. I'll tell you right now the Tatar , Nyquist and Sheahan line dominated Eberle, Hall and Paajaarvi line as well as Schultz. Anyone who doesn't believe me the game is archived at RedWings Live. Check it out.

rgr. see typos and brain farts happen! lol. In 06 yes there was some worry heading into the season. But we as a team were still 10-12 legit stars deep. Those stars were already on the roster and had proven themselves. That is not the case now.



#31 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

rgr. see typos and brain farts happen! lol. In 06 yes there was some worry heading into the season. But we as a team were still 10-12 legit stars deep. Those stars were already on the roster and had proven themselves. That is not the case now.

10-12 "legit stars" deep?

 

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...



I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is looking at Babchuk.

I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.



#32 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team?  He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.  

 

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside.  He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason.  He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty.  Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).  

 

Who else might Holland target?  Who fits the secondary scoring help?

 

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

 

 - Visnovsky (36)

 - Hainsey (31)

 - Streit (35)

 - Regehr (32)

 - Whitney (30)

 - Scuderi (34)

 - Leopold (32)

 - Babchuk (28)

 - Douglas Murray (32)

 

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk.  What do you all think?

 

Forwards:

 

 - Horton

 - Clowe

 - Weiss

 - Clarkson

 - Raymond

 - Boyes

 

I would personally love Horton or Weiss for secondary scoring.  Horton has not fit in well with Boston and I believe would thrive on a second line here with Datsyuk feeding him.  I've always liked Weiss, but i'm not sure how he'd fit here/if he would.

 

What do you think?



#33 sjr2012

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:46 PM

I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team?  He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.  

 

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside.  He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason.  He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty.  Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).  

 

Who else might Holland target?  Who fits the secondary scoring help?

 

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

 

 - Visnovsky (36)

 - Hainsey (31)

 - Streit (35)

 - Regehr (32)

 - Whitney (30)

 - Scuderi (34)

 - Leopold (32)

 - Babchuk (28)

 - Douglas Murray (32)

 

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk.  What do you all think?

 

Forwards:

 

 - Horton

 - Clowe

 - Weiss

 - Clarkson

 - Raymond

 - Boyes

 

I would personally love Horton or Weiss for secondary scoring.  Horton has not fit in well with Boston and I believe would thrive on a second line here with Datsyuk feeding him.  I've always liked Weiss, but i'm not sure how he'd fit here/if he would.

 

What do you think?

i agree on Horton for sure would be great with Pavs Weiss is a great player question is where would he fit better on a 3rd line or 2nd


try to get something by me i dare you

 

 

:goalie:


#34 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:55 PM

I personally am indifferent about Bouwmeester coming here.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, but at this point, will it truly hurt the team?  He's playing stronger this year than he has in the past few and I don't think it's a stretch to think it's because of new coaching.  

 

I also feel that Babchuk hasn't been given a fair shake yet and has some pretty solid upside.  He put together a good season in Carolina and in Calgary each, but then seems to get the stick after for some reason.  He's a d-man who has good size, can put the puck in the net, and his a righty.  Why not go for a low-risk, high-reward type situation (as discussed above).  

 

Who else might Holland target?  Who fits the secondary scoring help?

 

Defensemen with expiring contracts:

 

 - Visnovsky (36)

 - Hainsey (31)

 - Streit (35)

 - Regehr (32)

 - Whitney (30)

 - Scuderi (34)

 - Leopold (32)

 - Babchuk (28)

 - Douglas Murray (32)

 

Personally, I'd like to see us go out and grab either Regehr, Whitney, Scuderi, Murray, or Babchuk.  What do you all think?

 

Streit is probably the best of the bunch, but IIRC the Islanders are pretty keen on getting him re-signed and probably won't deal him.

 

Whitney has lost a huge step due to injuries and probably won't be as effective as the Red Wings would like him to be.

 

I personally like Regehr and Murray out of the bunch, but I can see Holland making a pitch for all of those guys depending on where their teams (and the Red Wings are at come April 3rd.



#35 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:08 PM

Streit is probably the best of the bunch, but IIRC the Islanders are pretty keen on getting him re-signed and probably won't deal him.

 

Whitney has lost a huge step due to injuries and probably won't be as effective as the Red Wings would like him to be.

 

I personally like Regehr and Murray out of the bunch, but I can see Holland making a pitch for all of those guys depending on where their teams (and the Red Wings are at come April 3rd.

Yeah I like Murray and Regehr, too.  I think Murray would fit in nicely with either Kronwall or Ericsson, being a Swede and all. He'd help out the defensive side of things nicely.



#36 dirtydangles

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

I hope Kenny avoids trading like the plague unless it is for a cornerstone piece for the future. Swapping garbage isn't going to do much. We have enough secondary dmen - we don't need another guy out there looking for someone else to step up and lead. We don't need another forward on the wrong age of the 30 at the cost of our young prospects.

 

I'd think Kenny is looking for a young dman like Myers, Gormley, Bogo, Larsson etc. that is at lower value right now than they could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come. He doesn't trade often, so the ones he does make should at least have a long lasting impact. Or would that make too much sense?


Edited by dirtydangles, 20 February 2013 - 01:15 PM.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#37 Johnz96

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:45 PM

10-12 "legit stars" deep?

 

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...



I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.

Back in 06  glass is half empty, grass is greener, s*** colored glasses wearing fans  argued that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are talented but they're no Yzerman and Fedorov and that the team needs to make serious changes if it wants to continue to chalenge for a Cup.


Edited by Johnz96, 20 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#38 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:48 PM

I hope Kenny avoids trading like the plague unless it is for a cornerstone piece for the future. Swapping garbage isn't going to do much. We have enough secondary dmen - we don't need another guy out there looking for someone else to step up and lead. We don't need another forward on the wrong age of the 30 at the cost of our young prospects.

 

I'd think Kenny is looking for a young dman like Myers, Gormley, Bogo, Larsson etc. that is at lower value right now than they could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come. He doesn't trade often, so the ones he does make should at least have a long lasting impact. Or would that make too much sense?

 

If you look at all of the trades Holland has ever made, he has rarely ever dealt any real key prospects.

 

When aqcuiring a roster player, Hollands playbook most always involves trading:

-Middle of the road regular players (Jamie Pushor, Anders Eriksson, Kevin Hodson, Yan Golubovsky, Sean Avery, Maxim Kuznetsov, and Jason Williams)

-AHL prospects that don't seem to be in the Red Wings future plans (Philippe Audet, Yuri Butsayev and Sebastion Piche)

-Or draft picks (six 1st rounders, five 2nd, rounders, three 3rd rounders, six 4th rounders and one 6th rounder).

 

In 15+ years as GM, Holland has only ever traded three prospects, in order to aqcuire a roster player:

-Petr Sykora (NOT the one that won a cup with NJ in 2003, but the one that played 10 games with Washington in 05/06)

-Tomas Fleischmann

-Shawn Matthias

 

He has also only ever traded one "core" type player in 15+ years, in order to acquire another roster player:

-Slava Kozlov

 

Looking over Hollands trade playbook, it's doubtful that he is shopping for young expensive dmen that "could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come".


Edited by DSM, 20 February 2013 - 01:51 PM.


#39 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

Back in 06  glass is half empty, grass is greener, s*** colored glasses wearing fans  argued that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are talented but they're no Yzerman and Fedorov and that the team needs to make serious changes if it wants to continue to chalenge for a Cup.

 

Trust me, I was on here then. It was entertaining. NHL06 GM's were proposing ridiculous trades on a daily basis.

 

"I traded Andreas Lilja, Kirk Maltby and Kris Draper for Sidney Crosby. You guys think that Holland may try this?"

 

or the crazy "sign and trades' with UFA Manny Legace, who had made it clear he didn't want to come back to the Wings.

 

"Guys, how about they resign Legace and then trade him? I traded him for Ovechkin last night and IT WORKED! Get on the phone Holland..."

 

:bye:


Edited by DSM, 20 February 2013 - 01:59 PM.


#40 number9

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:17 PM

BS. No one was saying any such things in 96. We were all saying "with this much talent we should be wining cups". Then Holland and Jimmy D made the move for Shanahan, to add to Yzerman, Federov, Kozlov, Lirionov, McCarty, Lapointe, Draper, Kocur, etc etc etc........ The only 2 guys that currently compare with that group are dat and Z. That is it.

Again, AHL points mean nothing. Zero. Zip. Nadda.



nice comment. way to add some intelligence to the convo. BTW I don't play video games. Never have. don't even own a game system. I would rather do things in real life than hide in a video game. You should try it sometime.....

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