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Holland looking around

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#41 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

If you look at all of the trades Holland has ever made, he has rarely ever dealt any real key prospects.

 

When aqcuiring a roster player, Hollands playbook most always involves trading:

-Middle of the road regular players (Jamie Pushor, Anders Eriksson, Kevin Hodson, Yan Golubovsky, Sean Avery, Maxim Kuznetsov, and Jason Williams)

-AHL prospects that don't seem to be in the Red Wings future plans (Philippe Audet, Yuri Butsayev and Sebastion Piche)

-Or draft picks (six 1st rounders, five 2nd, rounders, three 3rd rounders, six 4th rounders and one 6th rounder).

 

In 15+ years as GM, Holland has only ever traded three prospects, in order to aqcuire a roster player:

-Petr Sykora (NOT the one that won a cup with NJ in 2003, but the one that played 10 games with Washington in 05/06)

-Tomas Fleischmann

-Shawn Matthias

 

He has also only ever traded one "core" type player in 15+ years, in order to acquire another roster player:

-Slava Kozlov

 

Looking over Hollands trade playbook, it's doubtful that he is shopping for young expensive dmen that "could be in the future and could have a larger impact for many years to come".

Prems for Shanny. That was a big one. But the NHL was also different then than it is now. There was always teams looking to dump salary and we had no problem picking it up. Chelios for Eriksson was also a pretty big trade.

But again, the NHL has changed, so Holland is going to have to change as well. Will he? We will see.



#42 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.  

 

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down.  Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control.  We were on Parise's short list, I believe.  I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota.  I was dumbstruck.  All that time and effort wasted.  Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again.  Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

 

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right.  I've never heard it put so perfectly.  That's exactly how I feel.  But, I'll add a little.  It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.


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#43 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:19 PM

Prems for Shanny. That was a big one. But the NHL was also different then than it is now. There was always teams looking to dump salary and we had no problem picking it up. Chelios for Eriksson was also a pretty big trade.

But again, the NHL has changed, so Holland is going to have to change as well. Will he? We will see.

 

The Shanahan trade was when Jimmy D was still GM. Holland took over the next season.

 

The Chelios trade was a big trade, but was also similar to trades for Lang and Schneider in where draft picks were the biggest part. Eriksson wasn't really part of the Red Wings core. He was a #4/5 dman on that team. The more valuable part of that deal for Chicago was the 2 first round round picks that came along with Eriksson.

 

Unless this team really sinks, I doubt Holland re-writes his team building playbook.



#44 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

10-12 "legit stars" deep?

 

Past Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and maybe Schneider, I don't know who else going into 06/07 you could consider a "star". Past Datsyuk and Zetterberg, only Lang, Samuelsson, Williams and Holstrom had posted top 6 numbers, and Shanahan had scored 40 goals the previous season. There were alot of question marks heading into 06/07. It was Franzen and Cleary stepping up, and secondary contributions from from then rookies Filppula and Hudler that helped make up for the loss. It didn't come from expensive UFA's, big trades or a rebuild...



I can see this too. Since he's a UFA, he probably won't cost the Wings any good roster players and would be low risk. He's also a right handed shot, which would be a plus.

Yes 10-12: Z, dat, hommer, Nicky, Cheli, hasek, Land, sammy was still good then, Draper, maltby, Bert (late pickup), etc.... By that time Yzerman was done and wasn't a big time loss. Shanny was at the time but was dropping off even with the good goal totals. was out of the NHL 3 years later..... So yes we were still a loaded team. But that also shows the issues we are having. all but 4 of those guys are gone, and the guys that have replaced them are not half as good.Heck that roster today might very well beat our current roster....Even with half of those guys in their 40's.......



#45 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.  

 

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down.  Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control.  We were on Parise's short list, I believe.  I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota.  I was dumbstruck.  All that time and effort wasted.  Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again.  Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

 

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right.  I've never heard it put so perfectly.  That's exactly how I feel.  But, I'll add a little.  It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.

 

Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

 

Time to get over it...

 

Parise tearing it up? Zetterberg and Datsyuk have much lower cap hits and are arguably playing better this season.



Yes 10-12: Z, dat, hommer, Nicky, Cheli, hasek, Land, sammy was still good then, Draper, maltby, Bert (late pickup), etc.... By that time Yzerman was done and wasn't a big time loss. Shanny was at the time but was dropping off even with the good goal totals. was out of the NHL 3 years later..... So yes we were still a loaded team. But that also shows the issues we are having. all but 4 of those guys are gone, and the guys that have replaced them are not half as good.Heck that roster today might very well beat our current roster....Even with half of those guys in their 40's.......

 

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.


Edited by DSM, 20 February 2013 - 04:27 PM.


#46 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

The Shanahan trade was when Jimmy D was still GM. Holland took over the next season.

 

The Chelios trade was a big trade, but was also similar to trades for Lang and Schneider in where draft picks were the biggest part. Eriksson wasn't really part of the Red Wings core. He was a #4/5 dman on that team. The more valuable part of that deal for Chicago was the 2 first round round picks that came along with Eriksson.

 

Unless this team really sinks, I doubt Holland re-writes his team building playbook.

Yes jimmy was still in charge, but Holland was very much running/learning to run the team. To think that Holland had nothing to do with any of it is silly. Just as today Nill is very much involved. But if you want to split hairs, then so be it.

Eriksson was the guy that Chicago wanted. It was discussed at length on every talk radio show in Michigan and Chicago. Everyone thought he was going to be a long time superstar. It was after the trade that his nickname "Bubblebutt" came out.



Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

 

Time to get over it...



 

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.

Homer wasn't a star? OMG..... he was the best front of net player ever in the game. 30 goals a year all from within 10 ft. Give me 4 of those guys right now today! Draper and Maltby were both better than any forwards not named Zetterberg and datsyuk that we have on our roster today.



Getting what we need is going to command big prices, and Holland just doesn't seem interested in paying big prices anymore.  

 

Say what you want, we got outbid by Minnesota for our two biggest needs. That's how it went down.  Suter was putting his pen to Holland's offer when Minnesota stormed in like John Wayne and took control.  We were on Parise's short list, I believe.  I remember the morning Suter signed with Minnesota.  I was dumbstruck.  All that time and effort wasted.  Now, Parise is tearing it up and Suter is slowly starting to find his game again.  Meanwhile, our injuries mount and our performance gets slowly worse and worse as time goes on.

 

And Richdg, you posted something about watching the Wings now is like watching a family member slowly die...you are so right.  I've never heard it put so perfectly.  That's exactly how I feel.  But, I'll add a little.  It's like watching a close, beloved family member die slowly and painfully, and also watching the best doctors in the world sit on their butts and do...absolutely nothing.

Its not fatal. But it is a long term thing that will take time to recover. Heck i had to root for the wings for 12 + years before they won a PO series. Don't get me started on the Tigers............ 84 untill...... is a long time between WS wins....... At least they are in teh fight atm, which is a major improvement.



#47 DSM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

Yes jimmy was still in charge, but Holland was very much running/learning to run the team. To think that Holland had nothing to do with any of it is silly. Just as today Nill is very much involved. But if you want to split hairs, then so be it.

Eriksson was the guy that Chicago wanted. It was discussed at length on every talk radio show in Michigan and Chicago. Everyone thought he was going to be a long time superstar. It was after the trade that his nickname "Bubblebutt" came out.



Homer wasn't a star? OMG..... he was the best front of net player ever in the game. 30 goals a year all from within 10 ft. Give me 4 of those guys right now today! Draper and Maltby were both better than any forwards not named Zetterberg and datsyuk that we have on our roster today.

 

Who are you to know who was or wasn't running the team at that point? Is that you Mike Illitch?

 

Holmstrom was a great player yes, but I'm not really sure he can be labeled a "star". Same goes for Draper and Maltby.



#48 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:50 PM

Who are you to know who was or wasn't running the team at that point? Is that you Mike Illitch?

 

Holmstrom was a great player yes, but I'm not really sure he can be labeled a "star". Same goes for Draper and Maltby.

It was made very clear by the media that Jimmy D was transfering all the power to Holland for a couple of years before Holland became GM. Now if the media was wrong-wouldn't be the first time, I could be. But that was the public image being put out there. In fact Holland was the one out doing the scouting and negotiating with the Whalers-again per the media. It may have been at Jimmy D's direction, that is true. Bowman was also heavily involved in this. After the SC sweep he called for a guy like Shanny to be picked up.



#49 Johnz96

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

Parise and Suter wanted to play together and Detroit couldn't bring them both. Parise wanted to go home to Minnesota, and Suter wanted to play with him. Pretty easy.

 

Time to get over it...

 

Parise tearing it up? Zetterberg and Datsyuk have much lower cap hits and are arguably playing better this season.



 

That's a stretch. Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper and Maltby were never "stars". Good players sure. Chelios, Lang and Bertuzzi were all in decline from their best years.

Signing Suter and Parise to those riDICKulous contracts is probably the biggest mistake the Wild ever made.



#50 RedWingsExpert1988

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:40 AM

i just love how everyone thinks our team is loaded, even without the injuries, LOL keep smokin



#51 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:29 PM

i just love how everyone thinks our team is loaded, even without the injuries, LOL keep smokin

 

They are the Detroit Red Wings, owned by Mike Illitch so unless you have some stake into them they are not your or mine team :-)

 

On a serious note, I expect Holland to look around because let's face the truth the guy has to hit a homerun soon if the Wings want to stay relevant for top UFAs.

 

Normally you are giving from a position of strengh to fix a position of weakness, this team as better at the offensive side of the game so Holland has to look at that and fix the defense that way. Hopefully no one is honestly thinking trading our underperforming playeres is going to bring in a guy like JayBo ( I still want Pietrangelo next year bad).

 

Also the Wings prospect pool is not that impressive, guys like Nyquist, Smith are standing out for a reason but the rest of pack is pretty much high risk high reward and not exactly guaranteed future NHL stars.

 

Maybe try Filpula/Kronwall + 2 for Edler from Vancouver?


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#52 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

They are the Detroit Red Wings, owned by Mike Illitch so unless you have some stake into them they are not your or mine team :-)

 

On a serious note, I expect Holland to look around because let's face the truth the guy has to hit a homerun soon if the Wings want to stay relevant for top UFAs.

 

Normally you are giving from a position of strengh to fix a position of weakness, this team as better at the offensive side of the game so Holland has to look at that and fix the defense that way. Hopefully no one is honestly thinking trading our underperforming playeres is going to bring in a guy like JayBo ( I still want Pietrangelo next year bad).

 

Also the Wings prospect pool is not that impressive, guys like Nyquist, Smith are standing out for a reason but the rest of pack is pretty much high risk high reward and not exactly guaranteed future NHL stars.

 

Maybe try Filpula/Kronwall + 2 for Edler from Vancouver?

1. What has Holland done for the past several years to give anyone any confidence that he's going to do anything with his cap space but sit on it and hope to get healthy?  He said it himself a few days ago.  He's hoping this year will be like 2009.

 

2. Again, I hope he does, too, but what confidence should we have?  He's pretty much failed at everything he's tried for the past couple of seasons.  JayBo could be had for a reasonable price, given how, despite his recent improvement, he is still underperforming for his salary.

 

3. Armstrong would rather die than let Pietrangelo get away, ESPECIALLY to us.  He'll be locked up looooooooooong-term before we can even wet ourselves at seeing him on the free-agent list.  Besides that, I think he would still be an RFA, making our chances of landing him slightly north of slavery being put back into effect.

 

4. It may not be impressive, but it isn't bad, either.  Nyquist, Tomas Tatar and Smith are standing out because they're good.  Calle Jarnkrok and Teemu Pulkinnen are looking great thus far.  Ryan Sproul and Xavier Ouellet also are coming along nicely.  Riley Sheahan has a lot of personal problems, but also a lot of talent.  Landon Ferraro, Jan Mursak, Martin Frk, and Joakim Andersson all could be decent two-way, third-line depth options in the future.

 

5. Trade a top-6 forward when two are hurt for the forseeable future?  No thanks.  Trading Kronwall for Edler would be a wash.  We'd lose our de-facto #1 defenseman (deserving or not) for another #1 defenseman.  Besides that, Vancouver just re-signed him.  There's no way they're going to let their best defenseman walk so soon after re-signing him.  The Canucks aren't struggling and have no interest in selling off pieces.  The only two Canucks to be had right now are Mayson Raymond and Luongo.  Eww to both.


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 21 February 2013 - 01:52 PM.

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#53 Wingsfan72

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

Who are you to know who was or wasn't running the team at that point? Is that you Mike Illitch?

 

Holmstrom was a great player yes, but I'm not really sure he can be labeled a "star". Same goes for Draper and Maltby.

I think be "star" he mean Homer was the BEST at what he did.  In the world of screening/pissing off goalies, Holmstrom is a god!

 


Edited by Wingsfan72, 21 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.

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#54 Richdg

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:34 PM

Again, Kornwall can't be traded. he has a FULL NTC through the 2016 season. Plus he has an ugly contract like franzen, Signed untill he is 40 something.......



#55 Richdg

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

There are guys out there that can help us, both today and for the next 5-8 years. It is up to Holland to go get them. Would O'reilly help? yes. name your price Colorado. 22 year old soon to be star C's don't grow on trees and we are in need. would Yannick weber help? hell yes. 25 year old puck moving RH Dman sitting on the Habs bench. Both would be instant upgrades to our team, and are very young. There is no reason not to expect Weber to be playing at a high level for the next 7 years. O"reilly for another 10 years.

Of course there are others mentioned in rumors and some that are not.

as for what we have to pay, basicly anyone not named Z, Smith, or Howard or anyone playing in juniors can be moved. yes that would include Datsyuk. again, has to be the right deal. Holland can't afford to be shy anymore. yes some gambles have to be taken, just not sure he will this late in his career.



#56 DetroitRedWings1993

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

There are guys out there that can help us, both today and for the next 5-8 years. It is up to Holland to go get them. Would O'reilly help? yes. name your price Colorado. 22 year old soon to be star C's don't grow on trees and we are in need. would Yannick weber help? hell yes. 25 year old puck moving RH Dman sitting on the Habs bench. Both would be instant upgrades to our team, and are very young. There is no reason not to expect Weber to be playing at a high level for the next 7 years. O"reilly for another 10 years.

Of course there are others mentioned in rumors and some that are not.

as for what we have to pay, basicly anyone not named Z, Smith, or Howard or anyone playing in juniors can be moved. yes that would include Datsyuk. again, has to be the right deal. Holland can't afford to be shy anymore. yes some gambles have to be taken, just not sure he will this late in his career.

 

  •  
  • I agree with everything but making Datsyuk available.  He wants to return to Russia soon, so we may as well get whatever production he has left out of him.  He's still an elite player.  It's not like he's steadily declining.  I would only move a big name if it means we're getting a big name in return.  We can't just sell off parts.  The majority of the fanbase will burn the city to the ground if they commit to a rebuild.  Too much talent yet.

     


Edited by DetroitRedWings1993, 21 February 2013 - 03:12 PM.

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#57 DSM

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

Why does everybody seem to think Datsyuk is ready to just pack his bags and go back to Russia? He told the Russian media that he "would like to retire" in Russia. Doesn't mean that he wants to when his deal is done, or that he will do it at all.

 

Lidstrom talked about going back to Sweden as far back as 1999, and retired a Wing 13 years later.

 

Come on now guys...



There are guys out there that can help us, both today and for the next 5-8 years. It is up to Holland to go get them. Would O'reilly help? yes. name your price Colorado. 22 year old soon to be star C's don't grow on trees and we are in need. would Yannick weber help? hell yes. 25 year old puck moving RH Dman sitting on the Habs bench. Both would be instant upgrades to our team, and are very young. There is no reason not to expect Weber to be playing at a high level for the next 7 years. O"reilly for another 10 years.

Of course there are others mentioned in rumors and some that are not.

as for what we have to pay, basicly anyone not named Z, Smith, or Howard or anyone playing in juniors can be moved. yes that would include Datsyuk. again, has to be the right deal. Holland can't afford to be shy anymore. yes some gambles have to be taken, just not sure he will this late in his career.

 

Boy, am I glad you don't have Hollands job... You'd make Mike Milbury look like Bill Torrey, and Garth Snow look like Art Ross.


Edited by DSM, 21 February 2013 - 03:32 PM.


#58 frankgrimes

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

Why does everybody seem to think Datsyuk is ready to just pack his bags and go back to Russia? He told the Russian media that he "would like to retire" in Russia. Doesn't mean that he wants to when his deal is done, or that he will do it at all.

 

Lidstrom talked about going back to Sweden as far back as 1999, and retired a Wing 13 years later.

 

Come on now guys...



 

Boy, am I glad you don't have Hollands job... You'd make Mike Milbury look like Bill Torrey, and Garth Snow look like Art Ross.

 

Maybe just it makes too much sense? The guy has nothing left to prove here, he is playing for an organization in decline/rebuild mode and would love to retire in Russia, he will be 37 when his contract is up, so do the math here..

 

I agree with posters, saying that Holland has to be more aggressive now but keep in mind guys like Reilly are going to command a big prize and I highly doubt the Avalanche would deal him to this team. Yannick Weber would be nice but he is not a #1 defender, so sadly there aren't as many options as people like to think.

 

At some point in the not so distant future Holland has to hit 1 - 2 homeruns, otherwhise this team might be looking at another streak but not a nice on.e


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#59 DSM

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

Maybe just it makes too much sense? The guy has nothing left to prove here, he is playing for an organization in decline/rebuild mode and would love to retire in Russia, he will be 37 when his contract is up, so do the math here..

 

I agree with posters, saying that Holland has to be more aggressive now but keep in mind guys like Reilly are going to command a big prize and I highly doubt the Avalanche would deal him to this team. Yannick Weber would be nice but he is not a #1 defender, so sadly there aren't as many options as people like to think.

 

At some point in the not so distant future Holland has to hit 1 - 2 homeruns, otherwhise this team might be looking at another streak but not a nice on.e

 

I've done the math, and all it is is minor speculation based on something he said to his hometown media. It seems most on here just use it as fuel to turn on NHL13 and try to trade Filppula for Sidney Crosby in GM mode and then post about it.



#60 e_prime

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

The other thing to keep in mind, and I just started doing the "maths" on this stuff, but there will be teams that are going to need to dump salary to stay competitive while getting cap compliant when next year's cap max goes down.

Which means a lot of teams are going to be making trades at the deadline... and come July 1st (or whenever Free Agency starts this upcoming off season

 

Vancouver is a prime example.  Here's the maths:

Going into 2013-14

 

5 defensemen signed for 22.9 million
7 forwards signed for 28.2 million
2 goalies signed for 9.3333333333 million

total: $60,403,333
cap at $64.3


cap space: 3.897 million

14 players signed

so that's 9 players needed.


Now obviously they can get rid of luongo's salary @ 5.3 with a trade, but you know that if that's a trade VAN will be taking some salary on. (So, let's just imagine they buy him out just to get to the numbers and where you can see what VAN will be ultimately working with and how it can benefit other teams looking for talent through trades.)


...and let's say they buy out one of their defensemen (ballard, bieksa, hamuis ... it doesn't matter)

 

That's still only going to net you another 4.2-4.6 million...  but let's be generous…9.9 million with the two buy outs.


Netting you 13.797 million for 9 players.  That's an average of 1.533 million per player… which just barely pays for their current UFA/RFA forwards at their same salaries for next year... and you've still got to grab up three more defensemen (7) and a backup goaltender.


Now I'm not suggesting that VAN wants to sign all or even any of their pending free agents forwards or defensemen, but you know they're going to want to stay competitive… so, they've got some work to do to balance/fill out that roster and get to a better place cap wise.
 


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.





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