553 replies to this topic

[LeftWinger]

Dude, look at our lineup.  No Bertuzzi, No Franzen, No Samuelson, No Helm, No Smith... I mean, thats 3 top 4 wingers, our third line center and our number 3 defensemen.  This is not the team Holland built.  

To be fair, Cleary did get a goal and an assist....

Dude, they weren't doing any better with Bert, Franzine and Smith in the lineup...Only Helm is the one we miss.  The couple of games Sammy played he was slow as tar.  It's not like they were tearing the league up with Franzine playing...this is actually a better team with Tatar, Andersson and Nyquist, than with Bertuzzi, Sammy and Franzine...

 

Let Holland hide in his office until all are healthy....he won't make a deal now or ever because "PLayer X is our deadline acquisition..." and when they continue to stink and miss or barely make the playoffs only to lose in the 1st round, they'll get a nice 1st round pick only to trade it for a garbage player or waste in on Haken Looben while Ryan Pulock is sitting right there at #17...God forbid Holland gets a shot at Seth Jones and picks Hok Ptew instead....My jugular vein may explode!!

[b.shanafan14]

Why do people think Cleary will be benched now after a two point game?

 

If anything, he and Holland are sitting in the office negotiating a new contract this minute.

 

This. 1000 times this. Besides Howard's injury and the loss of a point, there is nothing worse to come out of this game than Cleary getting two gimme points off of Pasha's superhuman effort. Cleary is the single worst player on this team not named Quincey or White, and has been all season. Pasha was in rare form even for him last night. I swear Babcock chooses Pavel's linemates based on seniority, or perhaps intense rounds of rock-paper-scissors before the game, because it hasn't been based on merit for years. Now in Holland and Babcock's minds, Cleary's minutes to this point and beyond are completely justified.

 

Cleary's two points last night (which puts him at 3 points for the season, averaging 17 minutes in ice time a night with some of the best players and on the PP) could not have been less earned. One was a shot from the slot after a terrific effort from Datsyuk, scoring his first goal on his 30th shot of the season. The second was pure coincidence that the puck hit him before Pavel molested all 6 Predators on the ice.

[evilzyme]

I just posted this in the DC thread, but it'll get more spotlight in the heated debate here;

 

I'll say one thing that will most likely upset majority of you, but in reality, it makes the most sense. I'm not a Cleary lover by any stretch of imagination, nor do I think he's been playing unbelievable but when it comes down to it, Cleary is a better fit for the top 6 than Tatar is. Immediately, most of you will think i'm crazy but realize what one of our problems is, puck battles and coming out on top, keeping the forecheck going, and maintaining pressure down-low. Cleary will excel at this role, more than Tatar could, at this current time. Tatar would not be able to handle the size, nor experience of majority top 6 lines and top pairing defensemen, which would put him at a disadvantage. Cleary can hold traffic at the boards and compliments Pasha just because of that. He gives pasha what bert did, able to control the big bodies, work it down low, and get the puck back to Pasha to create space. I love Tatar, and I think he's flourished when given this opportunity, hell, I think we should keep him up with how well he's been playing for us, but I honestly don't forsee him giving top pairings a challenge within their own zone, not as much as Cleary can. The recent games, Cleary has been rolling like a work-horse and giving it his all. Does he score like he used to? No. Is the same player as he was? Absolutely not. We need to realize that we don't have the cleary back in the day, but he still can complete his role when needed. With injuries to Franzen (   ) and Bert, we need someone down in the top 6 that can help assist winning puck battles, and unfortunately, that's Cleary. 

[kipwinger]

Was just watching Sportsnet and Kypreos just said Detroit has made inquiries for Stephen Weiss.

 

Well, I don't know alot about the guy but one thing that sticks out to me (aside from his skill level) is that he's always attacking the net.  He drives the lane and forces to d-men and goalies to deal with him, which generally has a lot of residual benefits like rebounds, open linemates, collapsed coverage, etc. 

 

Conversely, he's not real big, and that style of play typically wears on littler guys like Weiss. 

[b.shanafan14]

I just posted this in the DC thread, but it'll get more spotlight in the heated debate here;

 

I feel like your evaluation of Cleary is the same as Holland and Babcock's: valid a year or two ago, but no longer. Cleary this season has proved far less capable of battling along the boards, giving the opposition fits, working, digging, and retrieving than most anyone on this team. He's appeared to have played better the last few games, but its because he is playing with the best player in the game. Last night Cleary did very little from a mucking, creating havoc, and generally being a work-horse standpoint; the things that used to make him successful.

 

You seem to acknowledge that he isn't the same Dan Cleary anymore, and yet when I read the rest of the post it sounded like you were Ken Holland and just brought him back after he failed elsewhere, living in the past, describing how he was years past to justify his acquisition today. Dan Cleary has provided nothing unique or useful the majority of this season. Any flashes of his old self do not trump the contributions just about any other player in the lineup could provide better and more consistently at this point in time. Tatar provides energy, skill, enthusiasm, and scoring touch, on top of being generally tough to play against. Even Tootoo would do a better job on Pavel's wing, providing all the things you described in Cleary but a whole lot better.

[esteef]

Tatar doesn't need to battle along the boards as much because he has speed and moves to control the puck without pinning it and looking for help.  Put Tatar with Datsyuk and watch the points rack up.  I'm so sick of obvious skill players (and usually smaller ones at that) having to earn their stripes on bottom lines with muckers and checkers.  Put them where they'll produce regardless of "seniority". 

 

esteef

[joesuffP]

Tatar looks poised with the puck and makes smart moves. Babcocks moves this season have been baffling. When your powerplay, penalty kill and preparation are terrible 3 years in a row the coach has to go. The team is mentally fragile and it's embarrassing, that's on the coach. Isn't he the highest paid coach in the NHL?

[evilzyme]

I feel like your evaluation of Cleary is the same as Holland and Babcock's: valid a year or two ago, but no longer. Cleary this season has proved far less capable of battling along the boards, giving the opposition fits, working, digging, and retrieving than most anyone on this team. He's appeared to have played better the last few games, but its because he is playing with the best player in the game. Last night Cleary did very little from a mucking, creating havoc, and generally being a work-horse standpoint; the things that used to make him successful.

 

You seem to acknowledge that he isn't the same Dan Cleary anymore, and yet when I read the rest of the post it sounded like you were Ken Holland and just brought him back after he failed elsewhere, living in the past, describing how he was years past to justify his acquisition today. Dan Cleary has provided nothing unique or useful the majority of this season. Any flashes of his old self do not trump the contributions just about any other player in the lineup could provide better and more consistently at this point in time. Tatar provides energy, skill, enthusiasm, and scoring touch, on top of being generally tough to play against. Even Tootoo would do a better job on Pavel's wing, providing all the things you described in Cleary but a whole lot better.

 

I have to disagree with that, in my opinion. I think he did one hell of a job at holding the fore-check within their zone, numerous times while they were trying throw it up the boards to get it out, he staple gunned them to the boards and held the play. That allowed for abby to push in, support and pasha laid back to grab a takeaway/pass/open puck. It worked good last night, against one of the bigger teams in the league. I understand Tatar could use his speed, hell, any relatively good coach will tell you it's wiser to use your speed on the breakout rather than trying to dangle your way through. Kid's normally have the hardest time with this. They'll go to be deke-master-flex and not realize that they could've easily just burned the defender on the outside.The problem is, Tatar shows really good board play, forechecking abilities, finding positions but it's against bottom 6 lines. I just don't think he would be able to handle himself all game going against a guy like Weber. As much as i'd like to see cleary sit, and i'm ALL for that, we need him right now due to these injuries. And no, I don't think Tootoo would be productive playing with Pasha. Line-mates don't equal statistical explosions, it's been discussed more than enough times to go research via HFB. 

[evilzyme]

Tatar looks poised with the puck and makes smart moves. Babcocks moves this season have been baffling. When your powerplay, penalty kill and preparation are terrible 3 years in a row the coach has to go. The team is mentally fragile and it's embarrassing, that's on the coach. Isn't he the highest paid coach in the NHL?

 

Those are done through the assistant coaches, last season being Bill Peters and Jeff Blashill. Blashill got sent back down to work with the Griffins and we brought in Tom Renney. Although Babcock oversees the whole thing, it isn't simply on him. He's tried to get a better supporting cast, but unfortunately we just haven't found the man. You start treading deep waters when you fall into failure this much on the power play. You start losing composure, confidence, and generally just the flow of it. It forces them to take second guesses, trying to hard, looking for that perfect shot, which has only been hurting us. We need to start banging a couple in game after game consecutively so the units can get some confidence in their game. I think once we find some confidence, we'll see better performance out of the units. The penalty kill has been getting better and better, which I believe Bill Peters is in charge of (I believe he does all defensive scheming). The penalty kill is strictly on Tom Renney, as he was brought in the be the "power-play" specialist. I can get frustrated with Babcock's decisions, absolutely, but he guy has the resume he does for a reason. I can't question that, because I simply hold no credibility while looking at his. I do remember numerous times that sources said that Holland and Babcock just don't see eye to eye on the team. 

[Euro_Twins]

I have to disagree with that, in my opinion. I think he did one hell of a job at holding the fore-check within their zone, numerous times while they were trying throw it up the boards to get it out, he staple gunned them to the boards and held the play. That allowed for abby to push in, support and pasha laid back to grab a takeaway/pass/open puck. It worked good last night, against one of the bigger teams in the league. I understand Tatar could use his speed, hell, any relatively good coach will tell you it's wiser to use your speed on the breakout rather than trying to dangle your way through. Kid's normally have the hardest time with this. They'll go to be deke-master-flex and not realize that they could've easily just burned the defender on the outside.The problem is, Tatar shows really good board play, forechecking abilities, finding positions but it's against bottom 6 lines. I just don't think he would be able to handle himself all game going against a guy like Weber. As much as i'd like to see cleary sit, and i'm ALL for that, we need him right now due to these injuries. And no, I don't think Tootoo would be productive playing with Pasha. Line-mates don't equal statistical explosions, it's been discussed more than enough times to go research via HFB. 

 

I beg to differ, if he can go agaisnt 3/4 line grinders, who generally are the bigger tougher guys, he will have no problem against the top lines when it comes to battling against the boards

Those are done through the assistant coaches, last season being Bill Peters and Jeff Blashill. Blashill got sent back down to work with the Griffins and we brought in Tom Renney. Although Babcock oversees the whole thing, it isn't simply on him. He's tried to get a better supporting cast, but unfortunately we just haven't found the man. You start treading deep waters when you fall into failure this much on the power play. You start losing composure, confidence, and generally just the flow of it. It forces them to take second guesses, trying to hard, looking for that perfect shot, which has only been hurting us. We need to start banging a couple in game after game consecutively so the units can get some confidence in their game. I think once we find some confidence, we'll see better performance out of the units. The penalty kill has been getting better and better, which I believe Bill Peters is in charge of (I believe he does all defensive scheming). The penalty kill is strictly on Tom Renney, as he was brought in the be the "power-play" specialist. I can get frustrated with Babcock's decisions, absolutely, but he guy has the resume he does for a reason. I can't question that, because I simply hold no credibility while looking at his. I do remember numerous times that sources said that Holland and Babcock just don't see eye to eye on the team. 

 

not saying you're wrong, but I would love to see an article about babcock and Holland not seeing eye to eye. That may explain why babs is sabotaging the team by giving cleary so many minutes

[Tr!PoD#19]

Outside of that PP, pretty bad period so far

[Tr!PoD#19]

Well that was an awful period of hockey to watch. Really sloppy by both teams.

 

At least they're still up, I guess

[vladdy16]

I think you have the wrong GDT.  

[Tr!PoD#19]

Nice shift by Tootoo

 

Do I ever ROFL.

Edited by Tr!PoD#19, 21 February 2013 - 09:46 PM.