194 replies to this topic

[Resetti]

Pretty close, yeah. It may not be "fair", but players aren't paid by the point. If star players have to be valued relative to Crosby, then lesser players relative to them, and so on...half the players in the league would be paying the owners.

 

Teams need stars and there's only so many to go around. Parise may be more valuable to Minnesota than Crosby is to Pittsburgh.

 

That said, had Corsby waited to hit the open market, the best he could get is ~$90M over 7 years. He's currently getting $76.8M. Decent discount, but added security of a longer deal. (Which could prove pretty valuable, given that he's already had a serious concussion issue.)

 

We're all entitled to our opinions, but I think if you compare Parise's contract value to Crosby's, it isn't even close.  Now, I love what Parise brings to a team.  He's a hard worker; he backchecks hard, he forechecks hard, he's valuable in all situations on the ice.  Like a lot of players inking new contracts before the lockout, he took advantage of a longterm deal with a precipitous drop in his salary the last couple years ($2m and $1m respectively) to give his team some space.  The difference is that he'll be 40 and 41 years old at the time those numbers kick in, and will probably consider retiring and coming off the books.

 

He's not even close to a point-per-game player either.  He was the hottest free agent on the market, and he isn't even putting up half the numbers Crosby is right now.  Now of course there was a lot of speculation about Crosby's health after the concussion which would affect his market value, but his performance to date has somehow improved on his pre-injury numbers.  That's significant when you consider that the "discount" clause in his contract (the exploit in the old CBA) doesn't even kick in until age 34 or 35.  Unless you expect him to retire, or have a new provision to renegotiate the contract - and all in spite of what figures to be an expanding salary cap ceiling looking ahead - he's a bargain.

 

But this is really getting sidetracked.  The real point of this, to me, is to be wary of impending free agents who push for their full market value.  There are definitely guys who warrant throwing a lot of money at, and I absolutely thought Parise fit the bill because of his excellent leadership qualities.  But the things that set franchises back are big contracts to one-time-overachievers that never live up to their expectations.  Handcuffing the organization to talent that doesn't pan out is an unforgivable mistake.  It's much better to trade and explore burgeoning talent.

[number9]

What everyone should have learned from this offseason is that YOU DONT BUILD FROM FA. You build through the draft like we have always done and are doing. 

 

And naturally as we have one of our weakest years, we also have one of the strongest prospect classes we've ever seen. The Red Wings have been the smartest organization in hockey for over 20 years and they continue to do so. Hockey requires more patience than any other sport. Red Wings have that, and that's why we win every 10 years instead of once every 50.

Trusting the system. The winning system.

[wingedominance13]

What everyone should have learned from this offseason is that YOU DONT BUILD FROM FA. You build through the draft like we have always done and are doing. 
 
And naturally as we have one of our weakest years, we also have one of the strongest prospect classes we've ever seen. The Red Wings have been the smartest organization in hockey for over 20 years and they continue to do so. Hockey requires more patience than any other sport. Red Wings have that, and that's why we win every 10 years instead of once every 50.

Trusting the system. The winning system.

Stop making so much sense.

[RyanBarnes!]

Sproul is 6'4, 200 lbs, 18 goals, 40 assissts for 58 points in 39 games.  That's just nasty on D.  Probably our future top Offensive Dman.
 
Ouellet is 6'0, 187 lbs, 9 goals, 27 assists for 36 points in 40 games.  He's one hell of a 2-way Dman that was even better than Dougie Hamilton on our terrible Canadian WJC blueline.  
 
Those 2 will hopefully make the best D pairing in the league in a few years, as Keith and Seabrook were when the Hawks won the Cup in 2010.

Even if they make it to the NHL, it will take several years before they will be regulars. Let alone top pairing defensemen. Meech also made the Canadien WJC squad once.

[Z Winged Dangler]

We're all entitled to our opinions, but I think if you compare Parise's contract value to Crosby's, it isn't even close.  Now, I love what Parise brings to a team.  He's a hard worker; he backchecks hard, he forechecks hard, he's valuable in all situations on the ice.  Like a lot of players inking new contracts before the lockout, he took advantage of a longterm deal with a precipitous drop in his salary the last couple years ($2m and $1m respectively) to give his team some space.  The difference is that he'll be 40 and 41 years old at the time those numbers kick in, and will probably consider retiring and coming off the books.

 

He's not even close to a point-per-game player either.  He was the hottest free agent on the market, and he isn't even putting up half the numbers Crosby is right now.  Now of course there was a lot of speculation about Crosby's health after the concussion which would affect his market value, but his performance to date has somehow improved on his pre-injury numbers.  That's significant when you consider that the "discount" clause in his contract (the exploit in the old CBA) doesn't even kick in until age 34 or 35.  Unless you expect him to retire, or have a new provision to renegotiate the contract - and all in spite of what figures to be an expanding salary cap ceiling looking ahead - he's a bargain.

 

But this is really getting sidetracked.  The real point of this, to me, is to be wary of impending free agents who push for their full market value.  There are definitely guys who warrant throwing a lot of money at, and I absolutely thought Parise fit the bill because of his excellent leadership qualities.  But the things that set franchises back are big contracts to one-time-overachievers that never live up to their expectations.  Handcuffing the organization to talent that doesn't pan out is an unforgivable mistake.  It's much better to trade and explore burgeoning talent.

 I said before when the Parise/Suter thing was going on that I would like Suter, but didn't care nearly as much about him as I did Parise.  Parise was on a low scoring defensive team in Jersey and he still got his share of points, but the thing I liked most about him was his tenacity and that he forchecks harder than 99% of the players in the NHL.  He's fast and has a quick release and if his first shot doesn't go in, he never gives up on a play and that's what makes him so valuable.  Do I wish the Wings signed him to that monster contract?  Not sure at this point, but him and Suter for the same deal, don't want both at that money, just like this summer if Flip wants $5mil per, than he can enjoy playing in Calgary with $4mil worth of Hudler.  I sincerely hope that if Flip is adamant that he wants more than $4mil and is arguing for 5 that Holland trades him to whomever the highest bidder is to rent his services.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Even if they make it to the NHL, it will take several years before they will be regulars. Let alone top pairing defensemen. Meech also made the Canadien WJC squad once.

 

 But on the bright side, they have tons of potential, which is somethign that we need badly and asap.  If they spend the next 2 years in GR and then make the jump to the Wings, then to me that's one in the win column.  Justin Schultz jumped on Edmonton this year.  He's great offensively, mediocre to decent defensively, but he's still getting love from Edmonton's fans and all the sports panels.  The next 2-3 years may be a slightly bumpy transition here, we just gotta hope that we get a good 1st round pick this summer and that Dekeyser signs with us and we can get hopefully 1 forward UFA.  If not, then we have to wait for our prospects to be ready cause we don't have a lot of trade partners these days.  Hopefully Jarnkrok comes here next year and is a Wing.  He may be our 2nd line centre in 2 years anyways if Flip wants too much money and Dats goes home.  There's gonna be a lot of change here in the next couple of years and half the team may be gone.  Flip, Dats, Cleary, Tuzzi, White, Coliacovo, Eaves, Miller, Emmerton, Sammy, Quincey....  Only 1 of those players is irreplaceable.  Bolded for emphasis.

[rick zombo]

nm.

Edited by rick zombo, 15 March 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[achildr1]

This is a perfect situation in which my normal Holland admiration is almost completely squashed. Holland will almost certainly sign Filppula but not only that, he will be overpaid in dollars and term. The Filppula experiment is over. Filppula is worth more to us in a trade, impending ufa or not. He is simply not worth the contract that he will almost certainly get. On the open market the kid would probably get 5+ years at over 5 mill. That is not the kind of money we need to spend on a 50 point player. In reality it would be better for his career if he left anyway. Florida or Pheonix would probably throw the bank at him and he'd play on the top line everynight. I could actually see him on Pheonix...seems like their type guy.

In reality, Nyquist should take over Fil's spot. He has just as much skill and a heigher ceiling. Probably wont rake him till he's 30 to figure it out too. Brunner and Howard need Fil's money and whatevers leftover needs to be focused on rebuildi.g our defense.

[Euro_Twins]

This is a perfect situation in which my normal Holland admiration is almost completely squashed. Holland will almost certainly sign Filppula but not only that, he will be overpaid in dollars and term. The Filppula experiment is over. Filppula is worth more to us in a trade, impending ufa or not. He is simply not worth the contract that he will almost certainly get. On the open market the kid would probably get 5+ years at over 5 mill. That is not the kind of money we need to spend on a 50 point player. In reality it would be better for his career if he left anyway. Florida or Pheonix would probably throw the bank at him and he'd play on the top line everynight. I could actually see him on Pheonix...seems like their type guy.

In reality, Nyquist should take over Fil's spot. He has just as much skill and a heigher ceiling. Probably wont rake him till he's 30 to figure it out too. Brunner and Howard need Fil's money and whatevers leftover needs to be focused on rebuildi.g our defense.

 

I actually doubt we will sign Fil, aside from datsyuk and Z (and last season Lidstrom) no one on our team makes 5+ Kronwall comes close at 4.75. Holland may sign guys like sammy or quincey to 3+ but he won't pay 5mil for fil. Also there is a lot of talk of Holland agressively trying to trade for players, I would love for them to somehow someway get Ovie, so Ovie and datsyuk can play together, could you imagine that? The most explosive line in the NHL for sure

[achildr1]

 
I actually doubt we will sign Fil, aside from datsyuk and Z (and last season Lidstrom) no one on our team makes 5+ Kronwall comes close at 4.75. Holland may sign guys like sammy or quincey to 3+ but he won't pay 5mil for fil. Also there is a lot of talk of Holland agressively trying to trade for players, I would love for them to somehow someway get Ovie, so Ovie and datsyuk can play together, could you imagine that? The most explosive line in the NHL for sure

Two years ago, sure. Now, no way. Ovie is a bad personality for this team. He has a lifetime deal, declining production, an unsustainable way of playing for his size, huge cap hit, and would be here several years after Datsyuk is gone. It would be fun to watch though for a few years.

Edited by achildr1, 15 March 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Red Crazy]

What everyone should have learned from this offseason is that YOU DONT BUILD FROM FA. You build through the draft like we have always done and are doing. 

 

And naturally as we have one of our weakest years, we also have one of the strongest prospect classes we've ever seen. The Red Wings have been the smartest organization in hockey for over 20 years and they continue to do so. Hockey requires more patience than any other sport. Red Wings have that, and that's why we win every 10 years instead of once every 50.

Trusting the system. The winning system.

I do agree with that. The Wings have also made trades at or near the deadline that have brought those Cup wins as well. Lets face it the D needs help. You can't expect to rebuild your defense after losing Rafalski, Stuart , and Lidstrom by drafting. They don't have a top 2 d pairing and that is a big problem.

[The Secret]

Trade Filpula before he "Hulder's" for more money.... He would probably bring us a decent return. He'll never be the star we need him to be.

[ogreslayer]

I actually doubt we will sign Fil, aside from datsyuk and Z (and last season Lidstrom) no one on our team makes 5+ Kronwall comes close at 4.75. Holland may sign guys like sammy or quincey to 3+ but he won't pay 5mil for fil. Also there is a lot of talk of Holland agressively trying to trade for players, I would love for them to somehow someway get Ovie, so Ovie and datsyuk can play together, could you imagine that? The most explosive line in the NHL for sure

 

I think there's a greater chance you'll see Pavs & Ovie on the same line in either Washington or the KHL than in Detroit.

[kipwinger]

I know this will never happen, and I don't mean to entertain the idea that it would, but just out of curiosity would any of you trade Franzen+Kronwall+Nyquist+1st for Ovie?  Moreover, would the Caps take it?

Edited by kipwinger, 15 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[HIFI_canadian]

What everyone should have learned from this offseason is that YOU DONT BUILD FROM FA. You build through the draft like we have always done and are doing. 

 

And naturally as we have one of our weakest years, we also have one of the strongest prospect classes we've ever seen. The Red Wings have been the smartest organization in hockey for over 20 years and they continue to do so. Hockey requires more patience than any other sport. Red Wings have that, and that's why we win every 10 years instead of once every 50.

Trusting the system. The winning system.

 

I agree, free agency is not the way to go in order to build a team. However, when was the last time we had a legit draft class? especially early rounds. Helm can't score, Flips is overrated, Ericsson is well Ericsson. Andersson and Tatar are question marks still, Abby and Emmerton are 4th liners and most likely wont improve,  Franz is a bust, Kindl looks AHL worthy, Smith is still debatable..etc. The only best picks were Kronwall (with the help of Bowman), Howard and Fischer. Holland and his team needs to step it up this offseason in drafting because I haven't seen a core player come out of our draft classes since Kronwall. 

[Z Winged Dangler]

I know this will never happen, and I don't mean to entertain the idea that it would, but just out of curiosity would any of you trade Franzen+Kronwall+Nyquist+1st for Ovie?  Moreover, would the Caps take it?

Hmm...tough choice.  We have lots of quality D prospects, but they are still prospects.  Giving up Kronwall is a tough decision.  Any day of the week i'd give up Franzen, for the right piece I'd give up Nyquist, but our 1st rounder this year in a deep draft....If that pick ends up being Ryan Pulock, then I'd be unhappy with the end result of the deal.  Ovie has not been good lately and would not be worth 2 top 6 forwards and a quality D pairing if our pick is 16 or lower, where Pulock is slotted at the present.

[kipwinger]

Hmm...tough choice.  We have lots of quality D prospects, but they are still prospects.  Giving up Kronwall is a tough decision.  Any day of the week i'd give up Franzen, for the right piece I'd give up Nyquist, but our 1st rounder this year in a deep draft....If that pick ends up being Ryan Pulock, then I'd be unhappy with the end result of the deal.  Ovie has not been good lately and would not be worth 2 top 6 forwards and a quality D pairing if our pick is 16 or lower, where Pulock is slotted at the present.

 

I don't know anything about this Pulock kid but he seems to be getting a lot of buzz, which means two things. 1) I should look into him, 2) Detroit will never draft him lol.

[ogreslayer]

I know this will never happen, and I don't mean to entertain the idea that it would, but just out of curiosity would any of you trade Franzen+Kronwall+Nyquist+1st for Ovie?  Moreover, would the Caps take it?

Throw in John Carlson & I would consider it.

[martinezsvsu]

make that 1st a 3rd. or take out gus

[Dabura]

What everyone should have learned from this offseason is that YOU DONT BUILD FROM FA. You build through the draft like we have always done and are doing. 

 

We've talked about this before, I think, but I don't remember what came of it, so, again: What are you talking about?! Look at the past fifteen years. Think of all the free agents we've inked. Think of all the trades we've been involved in. Sure, Holland's on this big "We gotta build from within!" kick - but he himself has painted this change as, well, a change! How many times has he said something along the lines of "You know, in the pre-cap world, most of our team might be a mix of free agent signings and players we had acquired through trades. But in a salary cap world, we can't do that. It's just not feasible. So we have to put the focus where it counts now, which is on drafting and building from within. If you want to succeed and thrive as an organization in today's NHL, you've gotta draft well and build from within"?

 

EDIT: OK, to be fair, you've got a point, sort of. The draft has (almost) always been pretty important - maybe even kinda key - for us. But couldn't the same be argued for virtually any and every other organization? I guess my thinking is, even with a lot of great Wings (past and present) having come to us by way of the draft, we've done a s***-ton of trading and FA-ing. And so, I have to wonder: If we're The Model re: building through the draft (as opposed to relying heavily on "outside help")...which teams are supposed to be the misguided ones, i.e. the traders-&-FA-ers?

Edited by Dabura, 16 March 2013 - 03:23 AM.