Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Milbury rips Ovechkin


  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#61 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 16,871 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:06 PM

I don't think it's as clear cut as you guys are making it seem. 

 

1.  In five on five play: Crosby has 427 assists to Ovechkin's 358.  Meaning Crosby assists roughly 17% more often than Ovechkin.  Conversely Oveckin scored 365 goals to Crosby's 238, for a difference of roughly 35%.  So Ovechkin's a 35% better scorer and Crosby's a 17% better passer.

 

2.  Power play:  Assists (Crosby 186, Ovechkin 151) so again Crosby's a roughly 19% better PP passer.  Goals (Ovechkin 125, Crosby 70) so Ovechkin's a 46% better scorer on the PP.

 

3.  Ovechkin averages more ice time and has played more games.  So he's more durable and less prone to injury.

 

4.  Neither have played significant PK time, and neither have been recognized in any way for their defensive play.

 

5.  Ovechkin is more clutch, having more than twice as many game winning goals. 

 

6.  Ovechkin has taken fewer penalties in over 100 more games. 

 

7.  Ovechkin hits more, has fewer giveaways, more takeaways.  Crosby has slightly more blocked shots and is obviously better at faceoffs.

 

8.  Ovechkin is dirtier in the sense that he questionably hits people a lot.  Crosby dives more and is known for cross checking.  So I'd say it's a wash. 

 

So in summary, Crosby passes better (but less than 20% better) while Ovechkin scores better (over 35% better).  Ovechkin plays much more often in both games played and time one ice.  Ovechkin hits more, takes the puck away more, and turns it over less.  Crosby is better in the faceoff circle and has a marginal leg up in blocked shots.  Neither is notable for their defense (except that Crosby has fewer take aways), and neither is any dirtier than the other guy. 

You put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Crosby, but I disagree with the bolded ones.  

 

Crosby may not be a Selke candidate but he is certainly better than Ovechkin with his defensive play.  At the very least, he has not been called out repeatedly for his embarrassingly bad defensive play, like quitting on a play or leaving the ice on a scoring chance.  Ovie has.

 

Game Winning goals is in no way an indicator of clutch play.  It's a completely misleading stat.  Franzen can score to put the Wings up 5-0 in the first period again San Jose.  Then say they get lazy or someone gets hurt, and the Sharks come back only to lose 5-4.  So now Mule has the game winning goal, but it certainly wasn't clutch.  OT goals are clutch.  GWG mean virtually nothing. 

 
Ovechkin likely has fewer giveaways because he carries the puck a lot less than Crosby.  He's typically the recipient of passes as opposed to the one making them.  So Crosby will naturally have more giveaways. 
 
For me the question with Crosby is durability.  I wouldn't have thought this when they both came into the league but aside from his health if I had to pick between Crosby and Ovechkin it's Crosby all the way.   (I feel a little sick now)


#62 esteef

esteef

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 8,874 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

Game Winning goals is in no way an indicator of clutch play.

 

Yet Crosby continues to get the lion's share of credit for his Gold Winning Goal against the U.S. in the Olympics. 

 

Everything else I agree with you though, including the sickness :tounge:.

 

esteef


"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#63 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 16,871 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

Yet Crosby continues to get the lion's share of credit for his Gold Winning Goal against the U.S. in the Olympics. 
 
Everything else I agree with you though, including the sickness :tounge:.
 
esteef

I know. It was obviously a huge goal but more of one he just threw on net. People key on that goal and forget that he was mostly mediocre otherwise. And try to use that one goal to discredit how great Miller was throughout the olympics.

Plus that one was in OT, so it was actually clutch. ;)

#64 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

I don't think it's as clear cut as you guys are making it seem. 

 

1.  In five on five play: Crosby has 427 assists to Ovechkin's 358.  Meaning Crosby assists roughly 17% more often than Ovechkin.  Conversely Oveckin scored 365 goals to Crosby's 238, for a difference of roughly 35%.  So Ovechkin's a 35% better scorer and Crosby's a 17% better passer.

 

2.  Power play:  Assists (Crosby 186, Ovechkin 151) so again Crosby's a roughly 19% better PP passer.  Goals (Ovechkin 125, Crosby 70) so Ovechkin's a 46% better scorer on the PP.

 

3.  Ovechkin averages more ice time and has played more games.  So he's more durable and less prone to injury.

 

4.  Neither have played significant PK time, and neither have been recognized in any way for their defensive play.

 

5.  Ovechkin is more clutch, having more than twice as many game winning goals. 

 

6.  Ovechkin has taken fewer penalties in over 100 more games. 

 

7.  Ovechkin hits more, has fewer giveaways, more takeaways.  Crosby has slightly more blocked shots and is obviously better at faceoffs.

 

8.  Ovechkin is dirtier in the sense that he questionably hits people a lot.  Crosby dives more and is known for cross checking.  So I'd say it's a wash. 

 

So in summary, Crosby passes better (but less than 20% better) while Ovechkin scores better (over 35% better).  Ovechkin plays much more often in both games played and time one ice.  Ovechkin hits more, takes the puck away more, and turns it over less.  Crosby is better in the faceoff circle and has a marginal leg up in blocked shots.  Neither is notable for their defense (except that Crosby has fewer take aways), and neither is any dirtier than the other guy. 

Can't believe this is really serious, your cherry picking and leaving out facts is fascinating to me

 

1. Crosby scores more points than Ovechkin, by a pretty significant margin. Therefore he is a better point producer than Ovechkin. Goals are indeed more valuable, but if you are saying .62 goals per game to .51 goals per game is worth more than 1.41 points per game to 1.22 points per game, I have to question that logic, because it's just nonsensical.

 

2. Fair enough, Ovechkin is a better powerplay player.

 

3. Yep more durable, no question about it. We'll see how the rest of his career goes, personally I think Crosby's game can carry on well into his 30's, while Ovechkin's might diminish more as goal scorers usually age quicker. But Crosby has had injury issues with concussions, so who knows.

 

4. Completely wrong, Crosby plays SH, not a lot by any means, but he's out there on 5v3's this year now that Staal is gone (54 seconds a game). Ovechkin has never been on the penalty kill(5 seconds a game). You are conviently leaving out the biggest difference, Crosby plays a center. I don't know why you don't think this is a big deal, but being a center in the NHL means you have to cover guys down low in your zone, you have to win face-offs, you usually have to be behind on odd man rushes. Wingers have much less responsbility, and while Crosby is no Selke, he's far removed from his days of being a liability. If you watch his game he is actually a very effective defensive player, and Ovechkin floats around the blue line.

 

5. More clutch? or better goal scorer. Think that's a flawed outlook personally. If Crosby assists on a game winning goal I'd say that should be counted no?

Or how about we compare playoffs? Because that's the clutchest time of the year right? Crosby = 33 goals and 57 assists for 90 points in 68 games, Ovechkin has 30 goals and 29 assists for 59 points in 51 games. 1.15 per game to 1.32 per game. That looks to me like Crosby is pretty clutch in the most important time of the year no? He also had that nice game winning goal in the Gold Medal game, and was the youngest NHL captain to win a Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of this makes Crosby less clutch than Ovechkin, but maybe I'm just biased?

 

6. Ok this year in 40 games Ovechkin has 15 minors, and Crosby in 36 games he has 8 minors. Did Crosby use to take a lot more penalities? Yep, he was bad in that department, but over the years he's gotten better. Going down each year from .99, to .88, to .76, to .64, to .44 this year. While Ovechkin's goes from .71, to 1.24, to .52, to 33, to .75 this year. To me I'd say Crosby has the advantage here because you can see the progess he's made in that department. Also I'd like to think getting a suspension for a few games should hurt this attribute no?

 

7. Giveaways and takeaways are a pretty flawed statistic, each rink is different. Crosby also controls the puck more more than Ovechkin does, as Ovechkin usually shoots the puck immediately. Not to mention Ovechkin is sent in on the forecheck more than Crosby because *gasp* he's a winger. So more opportunity for takeaways. I guess Patrick Kane is better than Zetterberg defensively because he has more takeaways right?

 

8. I don't see how a player that injuries people is a wash with a player that dives or cross checks. I'm sorry, I'm at a loss here.

 

Crosby plays the center position which has more defensive responsibility, and he scores more points. Therefore he is the better player right now. When Ovechkin gets back to his 07-10 form then there can be a good debate.



#65 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:54 PM

Can't believe this is really serious, your cherry picking and leaving out facts is fascinating to me
 
1. Crosby scores more points than Ovechkin, by a pretty significant margin. Therefore he is a better point producer than Ovechkin. Goals are indeed more valuable, but if you are saying .62 goals per game to .51 goals per game is worth more than 1.41 points per game to 1.22 points per game, I have to question that logic, because it's just nonsensical.
 
2. Fair enough, Ovechkin is a better powerplay player.
 
3. Yep more durable, no question about it. We'll see how the rest of his career goes, personally I think Crosby's game can carry on well into his 30's, while Ovechkin's might diminish more as goal scorers usually age quicker. But Crosby has had injury issues with concussions, so who knows.
 
4. Completely wrong, Crosby plays SH, not a lot by any means, but he's out there on 5v3's this year now that Staal is gone (54 seconds a game). Ovechkin has never been on the penalty kill(5 seconds a game). You are conviently leaving out the biggest difference, Crosby plays a center. I don't know why you don't think this is a big deal, but being a center in the NHL means you have to cover guys down low in your zone, you have to win face-offs, you usually have to be behind on odd man rushes. Wingers have much less responsbility, and while Crosby is no Selke, he's far removed from his days of being a liability. If you watch his game he is actually a very effective defensive player, and Ovechkin floats around the blue line.
 
5. More clutch? or better goal scorer. Think that's a flawed outlook personally. If Crosby assists on a game winning goal I'd say that should be counted no?
Or how about we compare playoffs? Because that's the clutchest time of the year right? Crosby = 33 goals and 57 assists for 90 points in 68 games, Ovechkin has 30 goals and 29 assists for 59 points in 51 games. 1.15 per game to 1.32 per game. That looks to me like Crosby is pretty clutch in the most important time of the year no? He also had that nice game winning goal in the Gold Medal game, and was the youngest NHL captain to win a Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of this makes Crosby less clutch than Ovechkin, but maybe I'm just biased?
 
6. Ok this year in 40 games Ovechkin has 15 minors, and Crosby in 36 games he has 8 minors. Did Crosby use to take a lot more penalities? Yep, he was bad in that department, but over the years he's gotten better. Going down each year from .99, to .88, to .76, to .64, to .44 this year. While Ovechkin's goes from .71, to 1.24, to .52, to 33, to .75 this year. To me I'd say Crosby has the advantage here because you can see the progess he's made in that department. Also I'd like to think getting a suspension for a few games should hurt this attribute no?
 
7. Giveaways and takeaways are a pretty flawed statistic, each rink is different. Crosby also controls the puck more more than Ovechkin does, as Ovechkin usually shoots the puck immediately. Not to mention Ovechkin is sent in on the forecheck more than Crosby because *gasp* he's a winger. So more opportunity for takeaways. I guess Patrick Kane is better than Zetterberg defensively because he has more takeaways right?
 
8. I don't see how a player that injuries people is a wash with a player that dives or cross checks. I'm sorry, I'm at a loss here.
 
Crosby plays the center position which has more defensive responsibility, and he scores more points. Therefore he is the better player right now. When Ovechkin gets back to his 07-10 form then there can be a good debate.

Crosby doesn't just cross check, he whacks and hacks people as well. He injures people as well he broke both of Giroux's wrists last year in the playoffs. Ovechkin hits a lot and a small percentage of his hits could be argued as being dirty but those are all high speed reactionary things where Crosby intentionally hacks, whacks and cross checks players especially when he is losing or being shut down.
As players they are comparable but there is no comparison in character. Crosby is a dirty, little, sucky, diving whiner.

Edited by Johnz96, 11 April 2013 - 12:58 PM.


#66 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:03 PM

Crosby doesn't just cross check, he whacks and hacks people as well. He injures people as well he broke both of Giroux's wrists last year in the playoffs. Ovechkin hits a lot and a small percentage of his hits could be argued as being dirty but those are all high speed reactionary things where Crosby intentionally hacks, whacks and cross checks players especially when he is losing or being shut down.
As players they are comparable but there is no comparison in character. Crosby is a dirty, little, sucky, diving whiner.

Show me the slash that broke Giroux's wrist. If Crosby intentionally slashed him on the face-off, then why didn't he receive a penalty, or why wasn't there talk about it during the series?

 

Let's say he did slash Giroux, that's one player. Ovechkin has a laundry list of questionable hits, he's actually been suspended for them as well.

 

And Character? Show me where Crosby is a a**hole off the ice. The guy is amazing off the ice, he does so much for his community and his fans. He never gets in trouble, you can't find a video of him snubbing fans like ovechkin. Crosby's not paid to be liked on the ice.



#67 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

Show me the slash that broke Giroux's wrist. If Crosby intentionally slashed him on the face-off, then why didn't he receive a penalty, or why wasn't there talk about it during the series?

 

Let's say he did slash Giroux, that's one player. Ovechkin has a laundry list of questionable hits, he's actually been suspended for them as well.

 

And Character? Show me where Crosby is a a**hole off the ice. The guy is amazing off the ice, he does so much for his community and his fans. He never gets in trouble, you can't find a video of him snubbing fans like ovechkin. Crosby's not paid to be liked on the ice.

Crosby gets preferential treatment from the NHL, otherwise he would have long ago been blacklisted for diving. He broke both of Giroux's wrists, he does it all the time (hacking, whacking and cross checking and if you can't see that you are blinded by your crush on Crosby. Are you a man?), more so when he is losing or being shut down.
I don't know what he does off of the ice, I am just talking about what he does on the ice. 


Edited by Johnz96, 11 April 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#68 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,567 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:13 PM

Can't believe this is really serious, your cherry picking and leaving out facts is fascinating to me

 

1. Crosby scores more points than Ovechkin, by a pretty significant margin. Therefore he is a better point producer than Ovechkin. Goals are indeed more valuable, but if you are saying .62 goals per game to .51 goals per game is worth more than 1.41 points per game to 1.22 points per game, I have to question that logic, because it's just nonsensical.  No he doesn't score more points, he scores at a higher pace, but since he's rarely on the ice it doesn't matter.  Ovechkin has more career points. 

 

2. Fair enough, Ovechkin is a better powerplay player.

 

3. Yep more durable, no question about it. We'll see how the rest of his career goes, personally I think Crosby's game can carry on well into his 30's, while Ovechkin's might diminish more as goal scorers usually age quicker. But Crosby has had injury issues with concussions, so who knows.  Saying "we'll see" isn't any kind of defense.  You're just speculating.  My point stands.

 

4. Completely wrong, Crosby plays SH, not a lot by any means, but he's out there on 5v3's this year now that Staal is gone (54 seconds a game). Ovechkin has never been on the penalty kill(5 seconds a game). You are conviently leaving out the biggest difference, Crosby plays a center. I don't know why you don't think this is a big deal, but being a center in the NHL means you have to cover guys down low in your zone, you have to win face-offs, you usually have to be behind on odd man rushes. Wingers have much less responsbility, and while Crosby is no Selke, he's far removed from his days of being a liability. If you watch his game he is actually a very effective defensive player, and Ovechkin floats around the blue line.  Ok I agree, Crosby barely kills penalties and Ovechkin never does.  Also, by your logic all centers are better defensively than all wingers simply because they're centers...which is silly.  Because Crosby has more responsibilities based on his position doesn't mean he lives up to them.  Ovechkin isn't know for his defense, neither is Crosby. 

 

5. More clutch? or better goal scorer. Think that's a flawed outlook personally. If Crosby assists on a game winning goal I'd say that should be counted no?

Or how about we compare playoffs? Because that's the clutchest time of the year right? Crosby = 33 goals and 57 assists for 90 points in 68 games, Ovechkin has 30 goals and 29 assists for 59 points in 51 games. 1.15 per game to 1.32 per game. That looks to me like Crosby is pretty clutch in the most important time of the year no? He also had that nice game winning goal in the Gold Medal game, and was the youngest NHL captain to win a Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of this makes Crosby less clutch than Ovechkin, but maybe I'm just biased?  Nope, it makes them roughly the same (over 1 ppg in the playoffs) until you add in game winning goals, where Ovie clearly outshines Crosby.

 

6. Ok this year in 40 games Ovechkin has 15 minors, and Crosby in 36 games he has 8 minors. Did Crosby use to take a lot more penalities? Yep, he was bad in that department, but over the years he's gotten better. Going down each year from .99, to .88, to .76, to .64, to .44 this year. While Ovechkin's goes from .71, to 1.24, to .52, to 33, to .75 this year. To me I'd say Crosby has the advantage here because you can see the progess he's made in that department. Also I'd like to think getting a suspension for a few games should hurt this attribute no?  Who cares about this year?  In their careers Crosby has been penalized more and played less.  Case closed.  The fact that he's getting better and not taking dumb penalties doesn't somehow erase the fact that he takes them more often than Ovie.  Again more penalty minutes in 100 fewer games.  Nuff said. 

 

7. Giveaways and takeaways are a pretty flawed statistic, each rink is different. Crosby also controls the puck more more than Ovechkin does, as Ovechkin usually shoots the puck immediately. Not to mention Ovechkin is sent in on the forecheck more than Crosby because *gasp* he's a winger. So more opportunity for takeaways. I guess Patrick Kane is better than Zetterberg defensively because he has more takeaways right?  I don't see anyone complaining about the Giveaway/Takeaway stat when it's applied to Datsyuk.  Who's cherry picking stats again?

 

8. I don't see how a player that injuries people is a wash with a player that dives or cross checks. I'm sorry, I'm at a loss here.  Ovie is mean and dirty, Crosby is a dirty little p*ssy.  When it comes to a contact sport I'll take the former over the latter. 

 

Crosby plays the center position which has more defensive responsibility, and he scores more points. Therefore he is the better player right now. When Ovechkin gets back to his 07-10 form then there can be a good debate.  He's never been noted for his defense (neither has Ovie) and he doesn't score more points, he's scores at a faster pace, which would make a difference if he weren't constantly out of the linup.  Look at their stats bud, the most glaring thing you'll find is that Ovie does indeed have more points than Crosby no matter how you look at it.


Edited by kipwinger, 11 April 2013 - 01:14 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#69 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

Crosby gets preferential treatment from the NHL, otherwise he would have long ago been blacklisted for diving. He broke both of Giroux's wrists, he does it all the time (hacking, whacking and cross checking and if you can't see that you are blinded by your crush on Crosby. Are you a man?), more so when he is losing or being shut down.
I don't know what he does off of the ice, I am just talking about what he does on the ice. 

 

Ok, you can't really prove any of what you said. Show me where he broke both of Giroux's wrists?

 

Oh he dives? So do a lot of people, it's up to the NHL for enforcing the penalties, because players are going to use every advantage to win.

 

Here's that saint Giroux, I'm sure he'd never exaggerate anything.

No he doesn't score more points, he scores at a higher pace, but since he's rarely on the ice it doesn't matter.  Ovechkin has more career points. 

 

So you don't think points per game matters at all then Kip? Especially over a 450 game sampling? So a player that has more points = better? I guess Thornton is the best player in the NHL then by this critera. I understand points per game is flawed in a small sampling, but over a career?

 

Fine how about this year, where Crosby has more points than Ovechkin, even when playing in fewer games?

 

Who cares about this year?  In their careers Crosby has been penalized more and played less.  Case closed.  The fact that he's getting better and not taking dumb penalties doesn't somehow erase the fact that he takes them more often than Ovie.  Again more penalty minutes in 100 fewer games.  Nuff said. 

 

In a career total, but on a season by season basis he's not taking more penalties. That's just not true. And you don't think a suspension should harm Ovechkin in this area?

 

He's never been noted for his defense (neither has Ovie) and he doesn't score more points, he's scores at a faster pace, which would make a difference if he weren't constantly out of the linup.  Look at their stats bud, the most glaring thing you'll find is that Ovie does indeed have more points than Crosby no matter how you look at it.

 

He's not noted for being bad defensively, like Ovechkin is. And he does score more points. If points per game didn't matter then Bertuzzi is apparently better than Ovechkin. And Prospal is better than Datsyuk. Come on.

 

  Ok I agree, Crosby barely kills penalties and Ovechkin never does.  Also, by your logic all centers are better defensively than all wingers simply because they're centers...which is silly.  Because Crosby has more responsibilities based on his position doesn't mean he lives up to them.  Ovechkin isn't know for his defense, neither is Crosby. 

 

No, but I'm saying centers don't have the offensive freedom that Wingers do. And that if Crosby was to move to a wing, and solely focus on offense, he would likely put up more numbers. That's all


Edited by Carman, 11 April 2013 - 01:27 PM.


#70 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

Ok, you can't really prove any of what you said. Show me where he broke both of Giroux's wrists?

 

Oh he dives? So do a lot of people, it's up to the NHL for enforcing the penalties, because players are going to use every advantage to win.

 

Here's that saint Giroux, I'm sure he'd never exaggerate anything.

I watched the series, I was disgusted with Crosby, One of the most pathetic display of immaturity by a professional athlete that I have ever been witness to.



#71 esteef

esteef

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 8,874 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:18 PM

I like Sid's 1 G and 2 assists in the 2009 SCF series.  Talk about clutch!  :lol:  The fawning over Crosby goes overboard at times but he is a good player.

 

esteef


"The Wings haven't won a Cup without Darren McCarty since 1955."

#72 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,567 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:28 PM

You put me in the uncomfortable position of defending Crosby, but I disagree with the bolded ones.  

 

Crosby may not be a Selke candidate but he is certainly better than Ovechkin with his defensive play.  At the very least, he has not been called out repeatedly for his embarrassingly bad defensive play, like quitting on a play or leaving the ice on a scoring chance.  Ovie has.

 

Game Winning goals is in no way an indicator of clutch play.  It's a completely misleading stat.  Franzen can score to put the Wings up 5-0 in the first period again San Jose.  Then say they get lazy or someone gets hurt, and the Sharks come back only to lose 5-4.  So now Mule has the game winning goal, but it certainly wasn't clutch.  OT goals are clutch.  GWG mean virtually nothing. 

 
Ovechkin likely has fewer giveaways because he carries the puck a lot less than Crosby.  He's typically the recipient of passes as opposed to the one making them.  So Crosby will naturally have more giveaways. 
 
For me the question with Crosby is durability.  I wouldn't have thought this when they both came into the league but aside from his health if I had to pick between Crosby and Ovechkin it's Crosby all the way.   (I feel a little sick now)

 

I agree in part with your assessment of game winning goals, but I have two main retorts.  1)  The stats COULD mislead the way you say, or it COULD represent actual game winning goals.  The fact that you've pointed out a flaw only means the stats not perfect, not that it doesn't also measure what it says it does.  2)  If there is indeed a statistical bias in the way you've claimed, the bias would inflate everyone's numbers equally and there's no reason to believe the bias would disproportionately benefit Ovechkin and not do the same for Crosby. 



Ok, you can't really prove any of what you said. Show me where he broke both of Giroux's wrists?

 

Oh he dives? So do a lot of people, it's up to the NHL for enforcing the penalties, because players are going to use every advantage to win.

 

Here's that saint Giroux, I'm sure he'd never exaggerate anything.

 

So you don't think points per game matters at all then Kip? Especially over a 450 game sampling? So a player that has more points = better? I guess Thornton is the best player in the NHL then by this critera. I understand points per game is flawed in a small sampling, but over a career?

 

Fine how about this year, where Crosby has more points than Ovechkin, even when playing in fewer games?

 

 

In a career total, but on a season by season basis he's not taking more penalties. That's just not true. And you don't think a suspension should harm Ovechkin in this area?

 

 

He's not noted for being bad defensively, like Ovechkin is. And he does score more points. If points per game didn't matter then Bertuzzi is apparently better than Ovechkin. And Prospal is better than Datsyuk. Come on.

 

Points per game does matter but it's not the be all and end all of stats.  It's particularly misleading when the guy you're talking about is CONSTANTLY injured.  I can't believe that you're using Ovechkin's durability against him.  Ovechkin scores a lot and plays a lot.  Crosby scores a lot and plays a little.  Again, I'll take the former over the latter. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#73 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:32 PM

Points per game does matter but it's not the be all and end all of stats.  It's particularly misleading when the guy you're talking about is CONSTANTLY injured.  I can't believe that you're using Ovechkin's durability against him.  Ovechkin scores a lot and plays a lot.  Crosby scores a lot and plays a little.  Again, I'll take the former over the latter.

 

470 games before he's 26 is a little? Over 470(25 years old) games he has 1.415 points per game. Ovechkin has 593(27 years old) games at 1.219.

 

Crosby also has a higher shooting%, 14.90 to Ovechkin's 12.1. Might as well add that to the mix.


Edited by Carman, 11 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#74 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,567 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:54 PM

470 games before he's 26 is a little? Over 470(25 years old) games he has 1.415 points per game. Ovechkin has 593(27 years old) games at 1.219.

 

Crosby also has a higher shooting%, 14.90 to Ovechkin's 12.1. Might as well add that to the mix.

 

Seriously, you accuse me of manipulating stats huh?  What are you doing here?  Their respective ages don't matter considering they both came into the league the same year. 

 

Also, as I've stated several times already, Crosby does have a marginally better ppg average but it doesn't really make any difference because he plays so many fewer games. 

 

I'll concede shooting percentage, Crosby's is better.  So to recap, Crosby has a better ppg average, is better in the faceoff circle, and has a better shooting percentage.  Ovechkin has everything else.  IF, and it's a big if, you want to say Crosby is better that's fine, but originally you made it seem like he was far and away the best player in the NHL which simply isn't true. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#75 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 16,871 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

I agree in part with your assessment of game winning goals, but I have two main retorts.  1)  The stats COULD mislead the way you say, or it COULD represent actual game winning goals.  The fact that you've pointed out a flaw only means the stats not perfect, not that it doesn't also measure what it says it does.  2)  If there is indeed a statistical bias in the way you've claimed, the bias would inflate everyone's numbers equally and there's no reason to believe the bias would disproportionately benefit Ovechkin and not do the same for Crosby.

I'm not saying there's a bias, I'm saying the stat reflects exactly what it says it does. Game Winning Goal tracks how many times the guy scored the goal that gave them one more than their opponent at the end of the game. My point is that it has really no correlation to clutch goals. So it's not that the bias is equal, it's that the stat in no way is an indication of whether or not a player is clutch.

When Datsyuk scores with a few seconds to tie the game and send it to OT, that's an actual clutch goal that will not show up in GWG.

If they wanted to try and track clutch goals, they would have to include other important variables. if the game was tied when the goal was scored. If it was late in the game or OT, etc.

I just think fundamentally the GWG stat implies something about a player it is in no way built to track.

#76 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,567 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

I'm not saying there's a bias, I'm saying the stat reflects exactly what it says it does. Game Winning Goal tracks how many times the guy scored the goal that gave them one more than their opponent at the end of the game. My point is that it has really no correlation to clutch goals. So it's not that the bias is equal, it's that the stat in no way is an indication of whether or not a player is clutch.

When Datsyuk scores with a few seconds to tie the game and send it to OT, that's an actual clutch goal that will not show up in GWG.

If they wanted to try and track clutch goals, they would have to include other important variables. if the game was tied when the goal was scored. If it was late in the game or OT, etc.

I just think fundamentally the GWG stat implies something about a player it is in no way built to track.

 

I'll agree with that, but you have to consider that a good portion of those GWGs are in fact what they say they are...game winners.  And if you've got a lot of them, then you're scoring in clutch situations.  Your example of Franzen scoring the fifth goal in a game but getting the GWG after the opposition comes back to score four times does happen.  But Franzen also scores a ton of actual GWGs, and that's fairly clutch.  Are their other factors?  Sure.  But this is a stat that is actually kept, and it is indicative (though not the complete picture) of clutch performance. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#77 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,113 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:33 PM

Seriously, you accuse me of manipulating stats huh?  What are you doing here?  Their respective ages don't matter considering they both came into the league the same year. 

 

Also, as I've stated several times already, Crosby does have a marginally better ppg average but it doesn't really make any difference because he plays so many fewer games. 

 

I'll concede shooting percentage, Crosby's is better.  So to recap, Crosby has a better ppg average, is better in the faceoff circle, and has a better shooting percentage.  Ovechkin has everything else.  IF, and it's a big if, you want to say Crosby is better that's fine, but originally you made it seem like he was far and away the best player in the NHL which simply isn't true. 

Ovechkin had 2 more years of developing then Crosby coming into the league. I'd say it plays a little into the grand scheme or comparing the two.

 

Does Crosby playing fewer games this season really matter? He led his team to clinch the division already, and has 12 more points even with missing games. So while he may miss more games, he makes a bigger impact in the ones he does play, and to an extent where maybe him playing in 36 games, might be more valuable then Ovechkin playing in 48 games.

 

And Ovechkin is great. I didn't mean to diminish him at all, but there is a pretty clear consensus among hockey writers/coaches/players who the best player in the game is.


Edited by Carman, 11 April 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#78 DeGraa55

DeGraa55

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,466 posts

Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:37 AM

Oh please. That's the most ludicrous thing I've seen. Crosby is not as good of a scorer, not as good of a physical presence, and not as durable. But every other conceivable attribute is in Crosby's favor, he plays a two way center game(Is he a Selke candidate? No, not yet at least but his responsibility on the defensive end is just miles above what Ovechkin is asked to do. Crosby take absolutely no nights off, Ovechkin takes weeks off when not being productive with points. Crosby has an over .20 PPG difference, how is it even a question who is better offensively really?
 
Crosby is 4th all-time in point per game right behind Bossy, during this one of the lowest scoring eras. I mean give me a break, and is .20+ ahead of anyone currently in the league.
 
Oh and add that Olympic gold medal to the ring too, and don't forget who clinched the victory.
 
Ovechkin is a great player, but Crosby has separated himself from him since Ovechkin's prime in 07-10 where there was actually a debate. I hope Ovechkin regains his 60+ goal form, he is a great talent and fun to watch. But Crosby is also fun to watch, and I just don't understand how supposed hockey fans can pass over the opportunity to watch one of the greatest players to ever play the game grow as a hockey player, it's a once in the life time opportunity and it's just sad to me. Because as a hockey player my whole life, Crosby is and will be the best player I'll ever watch live, and that's something that I will cherish. There isn't a Gretzky, and Howe in every era, but we are lucky enough to be experiencing one of those type players and it's a shame people don't care about the actually game when it comes to Crosby.
 
And don't forget how cheap Ovechkin is, he's been suspended, and has countless of at the very least questionable hits. If the Red Wings fans think Backes is cheap, I'd love to see how they would react when Ovechkin would have ran Lidstrom like he did Gonchar, or Gleason,
 
Let me refresh your mind, this video doesn't even include his suspension and cheapshots from the past 5 years.



I loved the highlight reel. I loved gonchar. The idiot tried to avoid the hit and gets injured in the process. Or #5 dude is skating with his head down bent over in the middle of the ice what do you expect to happen. Clearly an ovie hater made the video but heck I loved it. 95% weren't dirty at all.

#79 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,179 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:26 AM

470 games before he's 26 is a little? Over 470(25 years old) games he has 1.415 points per game. Ovechkin has 593(27 years old) games at 1.219.

 

Crosby also has a higher shooting%, 14.90 to Ovechkin's 12.1. Might as well add that to the mix.

 With Ovie you can expect that 1.219 ppg every year and for an average of 79 games, 3 for suspension if we want to tag it.  He's a tank that doesn't get injured and he leads the league in shots every year, so I'll take his 2.8% less shooting.  Crosby is the better overall player as I stated before, but he's been injured since Steckel allegedly should have "got out of King Crosby's way"....  Ovechkin comes across like a bridge troll in interviews and his hot stick dance was embarrasing, but he's single handedly carrying the Caps into a playoff spot.  Crosby is injured and his stacked team is rolling along without him. 


Free darkmanx!

 

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag


#80 toby91_ca

toby91_ca

    Legend

  • Gold Booster
  • 8,448 posts

Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

 With Ovie you can expect that 1.219 ppg every year and for an average of 79 games, 3 for suspension if we want to tag it.  He's a tank that doesn't get injured and he leads the league in shots every year, so I'll take his 2.8% less shooting.  Crosby is the better overall player as I stated before, but he's been injured since Steckel allegedly should have "got out of King Crosby's way"....  Ovechkin comes across like a bridge troll in interviews and his hot stick dance was embarrasing, but he's single handedly carrying the Caps into a playoff spot.  Crosby is injured and his stacked team is rolling along without him. 

Just to look at it from a slightly different angle:

 

If you look at the Caps scoring leaders, there's not much separation in the 3 guys at the top, so one may look at that and say "single handidly leading them to the playoffs?"  However, he probably is powering the engine lately, but that also means that he was a big reason for the team sucking earlier in the year.

 

Pens, 28-8, on a 15 game winning streak with Crosby, 3-2 without him. 







Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users